Audi 2.7T Knowledge, Stock or Aftermarket ECU?
Discussion
Not sure if this should be here or in the Audi section, but asking on dedicated Audi forums didn't achieve squat, so:
I'm putting the twin turbo V6 in, essentially a kit car.
However I have very little interest in the engine tuning side really, chassis and suspension is my thing.
It's a horribly complicated beast, and I would much like to lose some of it, but that can wait I guess.
I see plenty of older turbo engines without the mass of hoses, pipes and whatever else, and they seem to run fine!
To be honest it could probably do with a good rebuild, but it's not something I can do nor afford to pay a company to do either for a while!
Anyway, I've bought an ECU for one of these, and still have the wiring loom
would it be a relatively simple job for someone to tweak the ECU to the application (de-immobiliser, gearbox sensors, exhaust stuff etc)
I'd still want to run a motorsport-type dash ideally, but could be tempted to run an Audi display instead.
Heard that the ECU needs it?
OR would I be better off sucking up the cost of a new ECU and a tuner, and go for an aftermarket ECU?
Emerald, OMEX, EMU, DTA etc etc.
Bare in mind the project is on a fairly budget (I don't get paid enough!)
There is a mid engine'd VW Caddy using this engine running an Emerald, it was Ultimate Dubs last year.
However that is all I or anyone else seems to know about it!
it's a very rare swap annoyingly, although not a huge surprise considering the size and weight of it
here's the b
d:
I'm putting the twin turbo V6 in, essentially a kit car.
However I have very little interest in the engine tuning side really, chassis and suspension is my thing.
It's a horribly complicated beast, and I would much like to lose some of it, but that can wait I guess.
I see plenty of older turbo engines without the mass of hoses, pipes and whatever else, and they seem to run fine!
To be honest it could probably do with a good rebuild, but it's not something I can do nor afford to pay a company to do either for a while!
Anyway, I've bought an ECU for one of these, and still have the wiring loom
would it be a relatively simple job for someone to tweak the ECU to the application (de-immobiliser, gearbox sensors, exhaust stuff etc)
I'd still want to run a motorsport-type dash ideally, but could be tempted to run an Audi display instead.
Heard that the ECU needs it?
OR would I be better off sucking up the cost of a new ECU and a tuner, and go for an aftermarket ECU?
Emerald, OMEX, EMU, DTA etc etc.
Bare in mind the project is on a fairly budget (I don't get paid enough!)
There is a mid engine'd VW Caddy using this engine running an Emerald, it was Ultimate Dubs last year.
However that is all I or anyone else seems to know about it!
it's a very rare swap annoyingly, although not a huge surprise considering the size and weight of it
here's the b
d:I thought they only did supercharged petrol V6 engines rather than turbocharged ones.
A friend happily runs the 2.0T engines on an Emerald, so provided there are sufficient coil drivers in the current K6 hardware then It should be able to run it happily. As to the stock ECU, I dont know how interdependent the systems are, I expect a lot will depend on the vintage of the engine, do you have an engine code?
Dave
A friend happily runs the 2.0T engines on an Emerald, so provided there are sufficient coil drivers in the current K6 hardware then It should be able to run it happily. As to the stock ECU, I dont know how interdependent the systems are, I expect a lot will depend on the vintage of the engine, do you have an engine code?
Dave
43655 said:
It's a horribly complicated beast
In what respect ?And as others say, there's a good chance the OEM ecu can be reprogrammed but there's also a chance if it's fairly modern it may be integrated with other parts of the car making retrofit complicated.
So does the engine have any special requirements, or is it a pretty basic engine ?
ie VVT or anything ?
All will be revealed once the engine code is known...
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Volkswagen_...
Dave
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Volkswagen_...
Dave
In my experience, the extra cost "Upfront" of an aftermarket ecu (cost of the ecu, loom and rolling road tune) quickly is offset by the lack of phaffing to make a modified OEM ecu work properly (immo, dash, keys etc). Also, you'll get used to the std power very quickly, and want to "wind up deh boost man" which will cost a significant amount with the OEM ecu.
If you want low cost, megasquirt it, and modify the std OEM loom yourself.
If you want low cost, megasquirt it, and modify the std OEM loom yourself.
2.8 has supercharger kits?
2.7 is biturbo as standard, with wee KO3s
I have heard a lot of good about Emerald, and yeah the K6 is up to 6 coils I think?
Engine is an ARE, it's '04ish vintage from an A6 Allroad
In what respect well:
This is the stuff of nightmares for me!
But a lot of it has been removed and boxed as per the previous (most recent) photo to clean the engine somewhat
I believe it has VVT yeah, but not exactly critical. I guess thats what the solenoid things are on the end of the heads
I must admit I'm leaning towards aftermarket ECU as you say, seems 'the right thing to do' to be honest, especially considering the car.
Also yeah stock power isn't expected to stay for long, I'd like to get around 400whp from it (2kg/hp)
have looked at MS, thought it didn't have knock sensing needed for a turbo engine?
It is relatively cheap, popular, simple?
2.7 is biturbo as standard, with wee KO3s
I have heard a lot of good about Emerald, and yeah the K6 is up to 6 coils I think?
Engine is an ARE, it's '04ish vintage from an A6 Allroad
In what respect well:
This is the stuff of nightmares for me!
But a lot of it has been removed and boxed as per the previous (most recent) photo to clean the engine somewhat
I believe it has VVT yeah, but not exactly critical. I guess thats what the solenoid things are on the end of the heads
I must admit I'm leaning towards aftermarket ECU as you say, seems 'the right thing to do' to be honest, especially considering the car.
Also yeah stock power isn't expected to stay for long, I'd like to get around 400whp from it (2kg/hp)
have looked at MS, thought it didn't have knock sensing needed for a turbo engine?
It is relatively cheap, popular, simple?
If that were mine, i'd want the VVT working (as it'll be flat as a wet week in wales at low rpm otherwise) and i'd keep the electronic throttle, so i can get a nice driveability cal, but i wouldn't worry too much about knock control (never seen it done properly except on the very top end stuff (Pectel/Life etc) and even then you need to calibrate it properly, which the average person is going to struggle with. I'd ditch/blank the egr for sure though.
It's not like normal car VVT (i think?), designed to assist spooling, which isnt something to complain about
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l214/boomerw/Scr... <info.
Curious about DBW/cable throttle, how does it make the car less driveable?
is it not just the difference between using a bowden cable or a potentiometer and stepper motor to open the throttle?
is knock sensing just needed for tuning the car? I thought it was quite necessary to have
egr would definitely not be going back on. It will probably have a removable pair of cats for emissions
although had toyed with having them permanent with a diverter valve. not a lot of space for the exhaust mind
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l214/boomerw/Scr... <info.
Curious about DBW/cable throttle, how does it make the car less driveable?
is it not just the difference between using a bowden cable or a potentiometer and stepper motor to open the throttle?
is knock sensing just needed for tuning the car? I thought it was quite necessary to have
egr would definitely not be going back on. It will probably have a removable pair of cats for emissions
although had toyed with having them permanent with a diverter valve. not a lot of space for the exhaust mind
A friend had one of these in an A6, he acquired it cheaply because the cam cover gaskets were leaking oil, a common fault apparently.
Changing these was a grade A pain and the parts were expensive too. It was one of those jobs where you would swear the designers had spitefully made it impossible to do even the simplest job without removing scores of hard to access fasteners.
The final blow was finding out that the thermostat was stuck open, causing massive fuel consumption and a non working heater.
A genuine 'stat was £20 but to fit it required removing everything from the front of the engine then removing the timing belt assembly including the POS cam covers again as the cams needed locking with special tools. He part exed it straight away.
A lovely otherwise perfect condition car economically written off by a stupid design. additionally on purchase the passenger footwells were wet through because of the usual VAG inability to provide proper scuttle drains. As this is where the designers thought was a good place to locate the ECU he dodged a bullet, other A6 owners have not been so lucky.
Changing these was a grade A pain and the parts were expensive too. It was one of those jobs where you would swear the designers had spitefully made it impossible to do even the simplest job without removing scores of hard to access fasteners.
The final blow was finding out that the thermostat was stuck open, causing massive fuel consumption and a non working heater.
A genuine 'stat was £20 but to fit it required removing everything from the front of the engine then removing the timing belt assembly including the POS cam covers again as the cams needed locking with special tools. He part exed it straight away.
A lovely otherwise perfect condition car economically written off by a stupid design. additionally on purchase the passenger footwells were wet through because of the usual VAG inability to provide proper scuttle drains. As this is where the designers thought was a good place to locate the ECU he dodged a bullet, other A6 owners have not been so lucky.
43655 said:
It's not like normal car VVT (i think?), designed to assist spooling, which isnt something to complain about
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l214/boomerw/Scr... <info.
Curious about DBW/cable throttle, how does it make the car less driveable?
is it not just the difference between using a bowden cable or a potentiometer and stepper motor to open the throttle?
is knock sensing just needed for tuning the car? I thought it was quite necessary to have
egr would definitely not be going back on. It will probably have a removable pair of cats for emissions
although had toyed with having them permanent with a diverter valve. not a lot of space for the exhaust mind
It's pretty much just normal intake VVT, except being an early system it doesn't have a lot of phase angle control. You could lock the system, or leave it unconnected and re-time the cam to put it somewhere sensible. Seems silly not to use it to me, considering how easy it is to drive.http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l214/boomerw/Scr... <info.
Curious about DBW/cable throttle, how does it make the car less driveable?
is it not just the difference between using a bowden cable or a potentiometer and stepper motor to open the throttle?
is knock sensing just needed for tuning the car? I thought it was quite necessary to have
egr would definitely not be going back on. It will probably have a removable pair of cats for emissions
although had toyed with having them permanent with a diverter valve. not a lot of space for the exhaust mind
With a by-wire throttle, you can play with the relationship between throttle angle and boost control valve setting + ignition angle, and hence optimise pre-throttle pressure to deliver excellent throttle response and a nice linear driveability.
You'll want to listen out for knock during system calibration, but this can be just via a basic audio amplifier and headphones attached to the knock sensor on the block, or with the good old "bit of copper tube & tin can" approach. What knocking pressure intensity you map too depends on how hard you are chasing peak output and how brave you are feeling ;-)
Most aftermarket knock systems can just about detect gross knock, which you can easily hear with your own ears, but not lower level knock, or knock at high rpm/low (where there is lots of mechanical noise)
Syvecs S6GP will do all the things you need it to do, only addition would be a cheap DBW driver box to actually drive the blade.
But it will run all aspects, DBW, VVT, proper knock control, lambda control, superb boost control all within a very affordable package ( relatively speaking )
Running it complete like that with DBW/VVT included will eat up most inputs and outputs though.
Just decide what features you want or need both for the engine itself, and overall as the driver of the car, for whatever uses it might see.
Yes a more basic ecu will probably run the engine too...but few will offer the same as a running package to the driver.
If you lost either VVT or DBW which eat a lot of inputs, that would free up a few more to allow you to make us of the many engine safety features they offer.
Either that or add an I/O box which gives you a few more inputs and outputs to play with for not a huge cost.
But that could come later or never at all, again just depends what you want or need.
But it will run all aspects, DBW, VVT, proper knock control, lambda control, superb boost control all within a very affordable package ( relatively speaking )
Running it complete like that with DBW/VVT included will eat up most inputs and outputs though.
Just decide what features you want or need both for the engine itself, and overall as the driver of the car, for whatever uses it might see.
Yes a more basic ecu will probably run the engine too...but few will offer the same as a running package to the driver.
If you lost either VVT or DBW which eat a lot of inputs, that would free up a few more to allow you to make us of the many engine safety features they offer.
Either that or add an I/O box which gives you a few more inputs and outputs to play with for not a huge cost.
But that could come later or never at all, again just depends what you want or need.
yeah i've seen a few forum threads where the most menial task requires taking half the car apart.
If it wasn't for their awkward Quattro system it would all be a lot easier to access
But for me i'm not likely to have any big issues with access!
http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af322/43655/en...
Sounds like VVT won't be as complicated as i was expecting then, thats good
I see the benefits now, sort of, thanks. especially with the traction control and such i can see DbW would be necessary
Had a look at the S6, seems very nice indeed although the £1600 price tag less so
could I at least still use the stock sensors? Assuming that's not part of the initial cost.
Any idea about the tuning side? As buying the ECU is only half the battle really.
I can't help think that most of the hard work has been done already in the £120 stock ECU though
If it wasn't for their awkward Quattro system it would all be a lot easier to access
But for me i'm not likely to have any big issues with access!
http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af322/43655/en...
Sounds like VVT won't be as complicated as i was expecting then, thats good
I see the benefits now, sort of, thanks. especially with the traction control and such i can see DbW would be necessary
Had a look at the S6, seems very nice indeed although the £1600 price tag less so
could I at least still use the stock sensors? Assuming that's not part of the initial cost.
Any idea about the tuning side? As buying the ECU is only half the battle really.
I can't help think that most of the hard work has been done already in the £120 stock ECU though
43655 said:
yeah i've seen a few forum threads where the most menial task requires taking half the car apart.
If it wasn't for their awkward Quattro system it would all be a lot easier to access
But for me i'm not likely to have any big issues with access!
http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af322/43655/en...
Sounds like VVT won't be as complicated as i was expecting then, thats good
I see the benefits now, sort of, thanks. especially with the traction control and such i can see DbW would be necessary
Had a look at the S6, seems very nice indeed although the £1600 price tag less so
could I at least still use the stock sensors? Assuming that's not part of the initial cost.
Any idea about the tuning side? As buying the ECU is only half the battle really.
I can't help think that most of the hard work has been done already in the £120 stock ECU though
You should be able to use all the factory sensorsIf it wasn't for their awkward Quattro system it would all be a lot easier to access
But for me i'm not likely to have any big issues with access!
http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af322/43655/en...
Sounds like VVT won't be as complicated as i was expecting then, thats good
I see the benefits now, sort of, thanks. especially with the traction control and such i can see DbW would be necessary
Had a look at the S6, seems very nice indeed although the £1600 price tag less so
could I at least still use the stock sensors? Assuming that's not part of the initial cost.
Any idea about the tuning side? As buying the ECU is only half the battle really.
I can't help think that most of the hard work has been done already in the £120 stock ECU though
I'm sure you could use the factory ecu, but it will be labour intensive to make it work, and you may require other parts of the car to be used unless someone out there can hack and remove any links or immobiliser functions. But yes it could be the cheapest option by far, your time may be free.
Money well spent on a good ecu, is a very good investment for the performance and well being of the engine.
And DBW is not needed for proper traction control. OEM use it as it's simple and easy to seriously kill power, but usually crap for the driver.
And traction control would mean you also need to install wheelspeed sensors etc. If the OEM ecu had this, it may also be unhappy without these.
Why go to a third party ECU when the OEM one has had so much development already and can easily be reprogrammed to whatever you need by companies like MRC?
They really understand this engine and the standard ECU - give them a call before you decide on using a 3rd party one.
I have one of these engines in my mid-engined project and you can use pretty much all standard VAG parts for the drivetrain with lots of options for gear ratios, etc. Look at the 2.4 petrol V6 FWD gearbox for a good compromise of ratios.
The engine is very strong and has massive tuning capabilities (600+ bhp) although I dont intend going much further than the RS4 spec.
They really understand this engine and the standard ECU - give them a call before you decide on using a 3rd party one.
I have one of these engines in my mid-engined project and you can use pretty much all standard VAG parts for the drivetrain with lots of options for gear ratios, etc. Look at the 2.4 petrol V6 FWD gearbox for a good compromise of ratios.
The engine is very strong and has massive tuning capabilities (600+ bhp) although I dont intend going much further than the RS4 spec.
Edited by GTMSpyder on Saturday 31st January 19:38
LOL.
Yes, it is the loom, but I'm keeping the Audi instruments, heating controls and all kinds of other rubbish that Audi spent millions getting to work ..... seems a shame not to use it. In reality 80% of the loom will go, and probably 95% could go if you only wanted to drive the ECU....
Yes, it is the loom, but I'm keeping the Audi instruments, heating controls and all kinds of other rubbish that Audi spent millions getting to work ..... seems a shame not to use it. In reality 80% of the loom will go, and probably 95% could go if you only wanted to drive the ECU....
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