Bosch 044 pump and fuel supply
Discussion
poppopbangbang said:
Thought about a mechanical pump? The stuff we use on the F1s is basically a modified hydraulic pump and we do getting on for 800bhp at 10bar rail pressure on them. Just need a sensible lift pump setup to supply them 15psi or so.
It's an interesting idea and maybe one that can maybe utilised in the future, how big and heavy and costly are they? The pic has no scale, but looking at the expected component sizes it looks quite small. Given it is engine driven it will create more pressure the more RPM it spins at right?Well after some thought I think it's wise to go with what we have at this time as I feel the 1000cc injectors, 044 pump and GT35 aren't too bad a match as they stand. True the engine may not develop it's full potential as yet, but we can work on that later.
What we will do is finish mapping, see what it does, what maxes out and then lower the boost pressure to bring it back to within safety levels and run it as it is. There is a lot more to do on the rest of the car to keep up with this engine.
Phase two will include a GTX40, better fuelling and a better intake manifold, the OE bunch of bananas isn't doing us many favours I think and a newer straight shot type with dual plenum will give some good reward.
Regarding an 8 injector set up my thoughts are that it's now perhaps outdated to have another set working further back up the manifold runners as modern injectors don't need these extra time/length for the fuel to mix?
One thing that's bothering me is the other parts of the fuel system, he's fitted a Walbro 255lph (in the tank) as a lifter pump and the swirl pot looks around .75 litres (will check this later). Given that the Walbro isn't supplying under pressure will it keep up with the 044? I'm worried the 044 could drain the swirl pot on a long straight maybe, it's a little too close for my liking so may just upgrade that and/or just the swirl pot.
I need to upgrade the lines too from the 255 (or whatever) to the 'pot as the internal diameter is only 4mm.
I was only supposed to be speccing and building the engine! How we get sucked into these things, thanks for reading and the suggestions, sometimes it's useful just for me to type this stuff out as often the answer springs out at me halfway through typing a post.
What we will do is finish mapping, see what it does, what maxes out and then lower the boost pressure to bring it back to within safety levels and run it as it is. There is a lot more to do on the rest of the car to keep up with this engine.
Phase two will include a GTX40, better fuelling and a better intake manifold, the OE bunch of bananas isn't doing us many favours I think and a newer straight shot type with dual plenum will give some good reward.
Regarding an 8 injector set up my thoughts are that it's now perhaps outdated to have another set working further back up the manifold runners as modern injectors don't need these extra time/length for the fuel to mix?
One thing that's bothering me is the other parts of the fuel system, he's fitted a Walbro 255lph (in the tank) as a lifter pump and the swirl pot looks around .75 litres (will check this later). Given that the Walbro isn't supplying under pressure will it keep up with the 044? I'm worried the 044 could drain the swirl pot on a long straight maybe, it's a little too close for my liking so may just upgrade that and/or just the swirl pot.
I need to upgrade the lines too from the 255 (or whatever) to the 'pot as the internal diameter is only 4mm.
I was only supposed to be speccing and building the engine! How we get sucked into these things, thanks for reading and the suggestions, sometimes it's useful just for me to type this stuff out as often the answer springs out at me halfway through typing a post.
Edited by Evoluzione on Friday 13th February 11:29
poppopbangbang said:
Max_Torque said:
But they run generally with a variable displacement pump, or active inlet valve to control the fuel delivery quantity.
But that likes saying it's not an electric pump because it has speed/voltage control 
Evoluzione said:
Well after some thought I think it's wise to go with what we have at this time as I feel the 1000cc injectors, 044 pump and GT35 aren't too bad a match as they stand. True the engine may not develop it's full potential as yet, but we can work on that later.
What we will do is finish mapping, see what it does, what maxes out and then lower the boost pressure to bring it back to within safety levels and run it as it is. There is a lot more to do on the rest of the car to keep up with this engine.
Phase two will include a GTX40, better fuelling and a better intake manifold, the OE bunch of bananas isn't doing us many favours I think and a newer straight shot type with dual plenum will give some good reward.
Regarding an 8 injector set up my thoughts are that it's now perhaps outdated to have another set working further back up the manifold runners as modern injectors don't need these extra time/length for the fuel to mix?
One thing that's bothering me is the other parts of the fuel system, he's fitted a Walbro 255lph (in the tank) as a lifter pump and the swirl pot looks around .75 litres (will check this later). Given that the Walbro isn't supplying under pressure will it keep up with the 044? I'm worried the 044 could drain the swirl pot on a long straight maybe, it's a little too close for my liking so may just upgrade that and/or just the swirl pot.
I need to upgrade the lines too from the 255 (or whatever) to the 'pot as the internal diameter is only 4mm
I was only supposed to be speccing and building the engine! How we get sucked into these things, thanks for reading and the suggestions, sometimes it's useful just for me to type this stuff out as often the answer springs out half way down the page....
Sorry, but you'll just have to "do the Math" won't you!What we will do is finish mapping, see what it does, what maxes out and then lower the boost pressure to bring it back to within safety levels and run it as it is. There is a lot more to do on the rest of the car to keep up with this engine.
Phase two will include a GTX40, better fuelling and a better intake manifold, the OE bunch of bananas isn't doing us many favours I think and a newer straight shot type with dual plenum will give some good reward.
Regarding an 8 injector set up my thoughts are that it's now perhaps outdated to have another set working further back up the manifold runners as modern injectors don't need these extra time/length for the fuel to mix?
One thing that's bothering me is the other parts of the fuel system, he's fitted a Walbro 255lph (in the tank) as a lifter pump and the swirl pot looks around .75 litres (will check this later). Given that the Walbro isn't supplying under pressure will it keep up with the 044? I'm worried the 044 could drain the swirl pot on a long straight maybe, it's a little too close for my liking so may just upgrade that and/or just the swirl pot.
I need to upgrade the lines too from the 255 (or whatever) to the 'pot as the internal diameter is only 4mm
I was only supposed to be speccing and building the engine! How we get sucked into these things, thanks for reading and the suggestions, sometimes it's useful just for me to type this stuff out as often the answer springs out half way down the page....
Measure the maximum flow rate of the lift pump (remember (almost)all electric pumps vary their flow
rate with supply voltage) by running it into a bucket for say 30sec and measuring the amount delivered. Do the same for the pressure pump, by removing the pressure regulator return line, and putting that into a bucket. if you have an adjustable pressure reg, crank on a couple more bar static pressure to simulate the effect of boost pressure (or use an airline, at boost pressure, onto the pressure regulators diaphragm inlet port).
So now, you have the inlet flow and the outlet flow from the swirl pot. Knowing it's volume, you can easily calculate how long it will take to drain that volume, and hence how long the system can stay at fully power for. In reality, you will have to take allowances for the dynamics of the situation, because the swirl pot might not be completely full etc.
poppopbangbang said:
Pretty much everything with GDI and most if not all diesels (common rail is EFI).
So no normal efi then as I thought.And are those pumps not rather limited with flow ability ? I've heard of people with the TSI engines needing very expensive pump upgrades are relatively low power outputs, and certainly far below 600hp.
Then nevermind the cost of fitting, re-working of fuel lines to suit sucking from the tank etc etc
Where does fuel return to ? main tank or the swirl tank ?
And a Walbro at 0psi should be able to support the 044 at 70-80psi at full load, so you should be ok there. But a test would be nice.
If the return is to the main tank, a sort of cheap upgrade would be one of those 340lph in-tank pumps instead of the 255.
Then restrict the return/vent from the swirl to a very small opening back to the main tank.
Under most circumstances this should maintain the swirl tank at pressure which would help support the 044 offering you a little more headroom overall.
You could maybe even try and stick a small FPR on the swirl return to try and maintain say 15-20psi in the swirl tank
I doubt a 255lph would have enough flow to maintain it though
And a Walbro at 0psi should be able to support the 044 at 70-80psi at full load, so you should be ok there. But a test would be nice.
If the return is to the main tank, a sort of cheap upgrade would be one of those 340lph in-tank pumps instead of the 255.
Then restrict the return/vent from the swirl to a very small opening back to the main tank.
Under most circumstances this should maintain the swirl tank at pressure which would help support the 044 offering you a little more headroom overall.
You could maybe even try and stick a small FPR on the swirl return to try and maintain say 15-20psi in the swirl tank
I doubt a 255lph would have enough flow to maintain it though
Evoluzione said:
It's an interesting idea and maybe one that can maybe utilised in the future, how big and heavy and costly are they? The pic has no scale, but looking at the expected component sizes it looks quite small. Given it is engine driven it will create more pressure the more RPM it spins at right?
Weight around 500grams, cost around £150 and size about half of an intank walbro. You would plumb it exactly as per an electric pump system i.e. with an FPR in the system. On our applications we run them in the fuel tank void with a single exit to the rail from the void and a 10bar Weber reg in the middle. This way the more input speed is provided to the pump the more bleed off the reg there is.Max_Torque said:
Not really no. An electric pump is limited in it's output power by it's own internal electrical resistance. A mech pump driven from an engine is effectively almost completely unlimited! (as far as fuel pressure is concerned). IE before it stalls the engine, or breaks it's drive shaft/belt, it can probably generate several hundred bar of pressure, hence the need for care!
The pump I am discussing would feed the remaining fuel system exactly as per the electric pump would with regulator etc. in place. It's a gear type pump so output pressures are really determined by how much resistance the method of rail pressure regulation causes. No electronic control of the pump required in any way unless you want to. This setup is very well proven having done at least 8 seasons in F1 with Minardi, Ferrari, Williams, BAR, Tyrell and Jordan. Plus all the things we've done over the years with a setup which is essentially a copy
stevieturbo said:
So no normal efi then as I thought.
And are those pumps not rather limited with flow ability ? I've heard of people with the TSI engines needing very expensive pump upgrades are relatively low power outputs, and certainly far below 600hp.
Then nevermind the cost of fitting, re-working of fuel lines to suit sucking from the tank etc etc
GDI and CDI are pretty normal EFI though... It's decade old tech!And are those pumps not rather limited with flow ability ? I've heard of people with the TSI engines needing very expensive pump upgrades are relatively low power outputs, and certainly far below 600hp.
Then nevermind the cost of fitting, re-working of fuel lines to suit sucking from the tank etc etc
And no as above we've used them on 800bhp applications all day long. The Toyota was 930bhp in the day at 100bar rail pressure and still using the same modified tail lift hydraulic pump as pictured above.
This is the pump design the 2005 cars were running. Driven by a flexible shaft off the front of the engine oil pump stack so circa 4500RPM at 18K crank speed.
http://dc-america.resource.bosch.com/media/us/prod...
The inlet was supplied by a pair of electric lift pumps. In 2002 BAR/Hondas case a pair of in tank fuel pumps from a Vectra V6 with dash 6 fittings bonded into the top. These fed a swirl pot with a 0.5bar pressure regulator in the top of it (spill over into tank) with the mechanical pump fed from the bottom via a dash 12 line. Mechanical pump outlet was a dash 10 line which fed the inlet of a Marelli FPR, the rail port of this reg then terminated in a Symetrics dry break at the top of the tank with the spill over returned to the collector.
The lift, collector and mechanical pump was a dry setup even though it was in tank aside from the collector spill over.
When I'm in on Monday I'll take some photo's of the bits for you all
http://dc-america.resource.bosch.com/media/us/prod...
The inlet was supplied by a pair of electric lift pumps. In 2002 BAR/Hondas case a pair of in tank fuel pumps from a Vectra V6 with dash 6 fittings bonded into the top. These fed a swirl pot with a 0.5bar pressure regulator in the top of it (spill over into tank) with the mechanical pump fed from the bottom via a dash 12 line. Mechanical pump outlet was a dash 10 line which fed the inlet of a Marelli FPR, the rail port of this reg then terminated in a Symetrics dry break at the top of the tank with the spill over returned to the collector.
The lift, collector and mechanical pump was a dry setup even though it was in tank aside from the collector spill over.
When I'm in on Monday I'll take some photo's of the bits for you all
poppopbangbang said:
This is the pump design the 2005 cars were running. Driven by a flexible shaft off the front of the engine oil pump stack so circa 4500RPM at 18K crank speed.
http://dc-america.resource.bosch.com/media/us/prod...
The inlet was supplied by a pair of electric lift pumps. In 2002 BAR/Hondas case a pair of in tank fuel pumps from a Vectra V6 with dash 6 fittings bonded into the top. These fed a swirl pot with a 0.5bar pressure regulator in the top of it (spill over into tank) with the mechanical pump fed from the bottom via a dash 12 line. Mechanical pump outlet was a dash 10 line which fed the inlet of a Marelli FPR, the rail port of this reg then terminated in a Symetrics dry break at the top of the tank with the spill over returned to the collector.
The lift, collector and mechanical pump was a dry setup even though it was in tank aside from the collector spill over.
When I'm in on Monday I'll take some photo's of the bits for you all
Sooo..http://dc-america.resource.bosch.com/media/us/prod...
The inlet was supplied by a pair of electric lift pumps. In 2002 BAR/Hondas case a pair of in tank fuel pumps from a Vectra V6 with dash 6 fittings bonded into the top. These fed a swirl pot with a 0.5bar pressure regulator in the top of it (spill over into tank) with the mechanical pump fed from the bottom via a dash 12 line. Mechanical pump outlet was a dash 10 line which fed the inlet of a Marelli FPR, the rail port of this reg then terminated in a Symetrics dry break at the top of the tank with the spill over returned to the collector.
The lift, collector and mechanical pump was a dry setup even though it was in tank aside from the collector spill over.
When I'm in on Monday I'll take some photo's of the bits for you all
You go to the trouble sourcing, installing, fabricating a drive system etc etc. Then feed it with a pair of electric pumps.
When a pair of electric pumps on their own would do the job ?
I'm just not seeing the practicality or simplicity a mechanical pump can offer.
How much in total cost is that fuel system vs simple pair of electric pumps ?
stevieturbo said:
Sooo..
You go to the trouble sourcing, installing, fabricating a drive system etc etc. Then feed it with a pair of electric pumps.
When a pair of electric pumps on their own would do the job ?
I'm just not seeing the practicality or simplicity a mechanical pump can offer.
How much in total cost is that fuel system vs simple pair of electric pumps ?
No that was an example of how it is done in an F1. You'd feed it (as we have done many tens of times) with a boggo low pressure lift pump (just as you would an 044 if you couldn't gravity it). The mechanical pump is cheaper than an 044, there is no additional electrical or plumbing requirement bar two hose fittings and the cost of a second 044 would be the same if not more as fabricating a drive. Plus you save on mounting brackets etc. for 044's which if you insist on something fancy and shiney is £50 a pop.You go to the trouble sourcing, installing, fabricating a drive system etc etc. Then feed it with a pair of electric pumps.
When a pair of electric pumps on their own would do the job ?
I'm just not seeing the practicality or simplicity a mechanical pump can offer.
How much in total cost is that fuel system vs simple pair of electric pumps ?
You seem to think the fab side of things would be extremely complicated but it's two bolts and a drive.... On the F4R for example we ran it one off the end of the inlet cam with a really simple turned on a lathe drive adaptor and used two existing threaded holes in the end of the head to carry the pump with a small mounting bracket. That was an hours labour and 20 quid of material per car. I know you haven't seen this kind of thing before but really it's very, very common and has been done thousands of times over the years in various applications.
It makes sense on an F1 car, that has (had) a tiny alternator, so you didn't want too much electrical load, but also, crucially, an engine that is started at room temp or above, by a team of people with high speed electric starters.
Have a go at getting one running at -10degC on a flat battery!
GDI road cars and diesels rely on their 'lecy lift pump, usually around 5 to 10 bar on it's own, to attempt to get a decent cold start at low cranking revs.
Have a go at getting one running at -10degC on a flat battery!
GDI road cars and diesels rely on their 'lecy lift pump, usually around 5 to 10 bar on it's own, to attempt to get a decent cold start at low cranking revs.
Thanks once again for the suggestions, I found the Walbro specs and it gave enough free flow to do what I needed, so I made it's job easy and off we went.
Sadly the map sensor didn't read over 2bar so the power curve flatlined instead of climbing, nevermind, another map sensor, another day. Torque peaked good and early at about 4200 though, not bad for a biggish turbo (GT35).
So apart from looking for suggestions on 4 bar map sensors, any thoughts on why the curves climb, peak, dip, then carry on up?
Initial thoughts are boost controller backing it off or (less likely) plenum volume too small perhaps?
Sadly the map sensor didn't read over 2bar so the power curve flatlined instead of climbing, nevermind, another map sensor, another day. Torque peaked good and early at about 4200 though, not bad for a biggish turbo (GT35).
So apart from looking for suggestions on 4 bar map sensors, any thoughts on why the curves climb, peak, dip, then carry on up?
Initial thoughts are boost controller backing it off or (less likely) plenum volume too small perhaps?
Vixpy1 said:
That's a boost spike.
We use our own 4bar map sensors but there are plenty out there.
Also quite often an "artifact" of the speed control loop of the rollers interacting with the rotational inertia of the drivetrain under test, which, during large dynamic loading changes (such as "coming on boost") leads to a corruption of the torque measurement.We use our own 4bar map sensors but there are plenty out there.
Always optimise your boost control on the road/track, rather than on rollers, where the inferred roadload "stiffness" is artificially generated!
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