Bosch 044 pump and fuel supply
Discussion
Maths 
not my strong point...
Does anyone have any first hand knowledge as to how much flywheel bhp we can wring out of an 044 on a turbo I4 on pump or race fuel? (not E85)
I've got a car in i've just built the engine for, it's easily capable of 650bhp and has one of these pumps already fitted, i'm thinking it will be 'borderline' with not a lot left in hand at that power. We're currently running a GT 35, but the customer will eventually fit a GTX35. We're past the 500 mark on an honest Dyno-dynamics, but have hit some issues with the engines peripherals which were not down to me, before going back later with a new non Chinese FPR and improved wiring I need to be sure we'll make the figures.
Lets assume 2bar boost, 3 bar Fuel Pressure at idle, 1:1 ratio giving 4 bar FP
Using the equation HP x K where K = 7.3 and HP is 650 gives me 4.745 (cc/min) x 60 = 285LPH
Using this graph part way down here http://radiumauto.com/media/techarticle-page.php?R...
Reckons 300lph at 4bar.
Now that isn't much headroom, but then why does it state further down the page that an 044 will supply enough fuel for 773bhp?
I'm also thinking the customer supplied ID 1000cc are going to fall a bit short too and will need at least 1200....
not my strong point...Does anyone have any first hand knowledge as to how much flywheel bhp we can wring out of an 044 on a turbo I4 on pump or race fuel? (not E85)
I've got a car in i've just built the engine for, it's easily capable of 650bhp and has one of these pumps already fitted, i'm thinking it will be 'borderline' with not a lot left in hand at that power. We're currently running a GT 35, but the customer will eventually fit a GTX35. We're past the 500 mark on an honest Dyno-dynamics, but have hit some issues with the engines peripherals which were not down to me, before going back later with a new non Chinese FPR and improved wiring I need to be sure we'll make the figures.
Lets assume 2bar boost, 3 bar Fuel Pressure at idle, 1:1 ratio giving 4 bar FP
Using the equation HP x K where K = 7.3 and HP is 650 gives me 4.745 (cc/min) x 60 = 285LPH
Using this graph part way down here http://radiumauto.com/media/techarticle-page.php?R...
Reckons 300lph at 4bar.
Now that isn't much headroom, but then why does it state further down the page that an 044 will supply enough fuel for 773bhp?
I'm also thinking the customer supplied ID 1000cc are going to fall a bit short too and will need at least 1200....
Edited by Evoluzione on Tuesday 20th January 15:29
Supplying fuel at 43.5psi for only 770bhp with no return and tested in perhaps ideal circumstances.
And Radium seem to be American, their horses are different sizes to ours.
Throw in boost pressure so say 75psi pressure, wiring, fuel supply from tank to pump, any filters and whatever amount of fuel is required to flow out the return to maintain pressure, and any wiring/voltage deficiencies...and as installed abilities in a car will be less.
But yes a single 044 installed sensibly will do 600-650 at a push. And Yes those ID1000's will also be at their absolute limit too.
Options if you dont want to push any harder but still boost fuel supply ?
ASNU make some very good 1300 and 1400cc injectors which will give you headroom there.
The yanks love their Boost A Pump units. Basically on demand you can fire up to 18v into the pump which helps it's performance by quite a margin. ( You can get stronger models that work up to 21v )
Doing this would let you up base pressure too and gain a little more headroom from the 1000cc injectors.
After that, you're looking at either a better pump, or multiple pumps.
I see Demon Tweeks list the Veyron pump in their catalogue now, it has huge ability for a single. Not the cheapest though
And Radium seem to be American, their horses are different sizes to ours.
Throw in boost pressure so say 75psi pressure, wiring, fuel supply from tank to pump, any filters and whatever amount of fuel is required to flow out the return to maintain pressure, and any wiring/voltage deficiencies...and as installed abilities in a car will be less.
But yes a single 044 installed sensibly will do 600-650 at a push. And Yes those ID1000's will also be at their absolute limit too.
Options if you dont want to push any harder but still boost fuel supply ?
ASNU make some very good 1300 and 1400cc injectors which will give you headroom there.
The yanks love their Boost A Pump units. Basically on demand you can fire up to 18v into the pump which helps it's performance by quite a margin. ( You can get stronger models that work up to 21v )
Doing this would let you up base pressure too and gain a little more headroom from the 1000cc injectors.
After that, you're looking at either a better pump, or multiple pumps.
I see Demon Tweeks list the Veyron pump in their catalogue now, it has huge ability for a single. Not the cheapest though
Evoluzione said:
Cheers Stevie, there is also a Walbro in-tank which delivers 450lph, you can see the 400lph in the supplied link, it's a fair way above the 044 in terms of flow until 6 bar of fuel pressure so maybe an easy fix.
Just make sure wiring/connectors is adequate as those Walbros draw insane amounts of current.It still wont fix the injector limits though
For a 2.0l engine, you need 8krpm, 2.5bar(g) boost @95% ManVol and a BSAC of ~3.6kg/kWHr to make 650bhp. Assuming you could do that at 11:1 AFR, which you probably can't (well, not for long before it all melts) that's 159Kg/Hr fuel flow.
Add in 15% leeway for things like cold days, overboosting or over fueling for component protection and that jumps to 183Kg/Hr (~247L/Hr). With a base fuel rail setting of 4bar, without any fuel system flow loses, you need a pump outpressure of 6.5bar, and at high flow you will have a low pump inlet pressure too, so your pump needs to be able to do basically 250L/hr at a pressure ratio of probably around 8!
I.E. No one is making a real 750bhp on an 044 without assistance.
Add in 15% leeway for things like cold days, overboosting or over fueling for component protection and that jumps to 183Kg/Hr (~247L/Hr). With a base fuel rail setting of 4bar, without any fuel system flow loses, you need a pump outpressure of 6.5bar, and at high flow you will have a low pump inlet pressure too, so your pump needs to be able to do basically 250L/hr at a pressure ratio of probably around 8!
I.E. No one is making a real 750bhp on an 044 without assistance.
stevieturbo said:
Max_Torque said:
I.E. No one is making a real 750bhp on an 044 without assistance.
The Yanks do...rwhp too ! lol
I was thinking of going onto 8 injectors on this job too, but as it's on an M400 we'll just have to stick with big singles...
Evoluzione said:
I saw a dyno chart with 600+bhp the other day - from a GT30
I was thinking of going onto 8 injectors on this job too, but as it's on an M400 we'll just have to stick with big singles...
Big injectors will be difficult to control at lower engine speed/power so 8 injectors in 2 stages would be better.I was thinking of going onto 8 injectors on this job too, but as it's on an M400 we'll just have to stick with big singles...
So that's 2 044 pumps, a bucket full of injectors and a new ECU the customer will be needing.
Steve
Evoluzione said:
I saw a dyno chart with 600+bhp the other day - from a GT30
I was thinking of going onto 8 injectors on this job too, but as it's on an M400 we'll just have to stick with big singles...
Plenty of good big single injectors out there.I was thinking of going onto 8 injectors on this job too, but as it's on an M400 we'll just have to stick with big singles...
Give ASNU a shout about their 1350's, you would have no issues with them down low. They have 1450's too with still a great spray pattern, but not just quite as nice.
They have some 1650's and 2000's in the works too, they're just not fully finalised apparently ( according to guy at Autosport )
Or if running two smaller injectors on the M400, you could just pair them up and fire them together as opposed to staged
When I changed ecu last year, as the new one didnt have enough outputs for 2 sets of staged and sequential injectors on my V8 ( I was previously batch ), I just decided f
k it and paired the two 600cc's together and ran all 8 cyls sequentially that way.With the higher base pressure they're probably around 13-1400cc per cylinder
I'll eventually move back to 1 inj per cylinder when funds permit, but that was cheapest option for me at the time. Only other option was to stick with batch fire and staged injection. But I wanted to go sequential
poppopbangbang said:
Thought about a mechanical pump? The stuff we use on the F1s is basically a modified hydraulic pump and we do getting on for 800bhp at 10bar rail pressure on them. Just need a sensible lift pump setup to supply them 15psi or so.
Unless aiming for well beyond 1000bhp, a mechanical pump would be a bit OTTElectric is simple and they work ( if you buy the right ones )
Ive seen a number of nobles run 600-650bhp on a single 044... don't like it myself as its right on the limit of the pump, I investigated lots of options, even buying an A1000 pump (for sale if you want an unused cheaper one) but in the end I decided to stick with using 2 044's.
If they are properly fed with a slight pressure then they will not be noisy... I upped the fuel pressure to give my injectors some additional headway as in truth I think I need bigger injectors (they are also poor quality and struggle to get a nice idle anyhow).
Miss speccing the car for the engine is common, people forget to make sure fuelling, oiling, loom etc are all adequate for the up in power... cheap chinese rubbish seems to be a common failure point on modified cars nowadays
If they are properly fed with a slight pressure then they will not be noisy... I upped the fuel pressure to give my injectors some additional headway as in truth I think I need bigger injectors (they are also poor quality and struggle to get a nice idle anyhow).
Miss speccing the car for the engine is common, people forget to make sure fuelling, oiling, loom etc are all adequate for the up in power... cheap chinese rubbish seems to be a common failure point on modified cars nowadays
stevieturbo said:
Unless aiming for well beyond 1000bhp, a mechanical pump would be a bit OTT
Based on what? It's lighter, cheaper, simpler, more reliable and thousands of OEM road cars running way less than 1000bhp are using mechanical pumps everyday. I'm not talking about something off a top fuel dragster 
This is what we use with a 4500RPM max input speed modified with a flat shaft drive:
We've adapted them to run off the back of water pumps, alternators etc. over the years without issue.
poppopbangbang said:
Based on what? It's lighter, cheaper, simpler, more reliable and thousands of OEM road cars running way less than 1000bhp are using mechanical pumps everyday. I'm not talking about something off a top fuel dragster
This is what we use with a 4500RPM max input speed modified with a flat shaft drive:
We've adapted them to run off the back of water pumps, alternators etc. over the years without issue.
What OEM cars run a mechanical petrol pump for normal EFI ? I've never heard of any.This is what we use with a 4500RPM max input speed modified with a flat shaft drive:
We've adapted them to run off the back of water pumps, alternators etc. over the years without issue.
poppopbangbang said:
stevieturbo said:
What OEM cars run a mechanical petrol pump for normal EFI ? I've never heard of any.
Pretty much everything with GDI and most if not all diesels (common rail is EFI).The easiest way to estimate fuel requirement from bhp is by using the Brake Specific Fuel Consumption in lbs per bhp per hour. For various categories of petrol engine and usage the figures are usually around the following.
Stock modern road engine at best efficiency (mid rpm, 85% throttle) - 0.42 lbs/hp/hr
Stock modern road engine at peak power - 0.50 lbs/hp/hr
Turbo charged engine at peak power - 0.60 to 0.65 lbs/hp/hr
Taking the worst case 0.65 number that means a 650 bhp turbo engine would require 422 lbs of fuel per hour = 192 kg = 255 litres
So about a 20% margin in reserve for wear and tear and perhaps a bit more if your engine is set up carefully and not using excessively rich fuel mixtures. The claimed 773 bhp no margin maximum from 300 litres per hour ties in pretty much exactly with those same numbers.
Stock modern road engine at best efficiency (mid rpm, 85% throttle) - 0.42 lbs/hp/hr
Stock modern road engine at peak power - 0.50 lbs/hp/hr
Turbo charged engine at peak power - 0.60 to 0.65 lbs/hp/hr
Taking the worst case 0.65 number that means a 650 bhp turbo engine would require 422 lbs of fuel per hour = 192 kg = 255 litres
So about a 20% margin in reserve for wear and tear and perhaps a bit more if your engine is set up carefully and not using excessively rich fuel mixtures. The claimed 773 bhp no margin maximum from 300 litres per hour ties in pretty much exactly with those same numbers.
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