what can I use
Discussion
I've had a few blasted over the years and the only issue i've had was on a couple of covers where the design creats traps for the blasting meadia to sit, where say a baffle or brather trap was built in, never heard of the media remaining in the metal until a heat cycle was put through it? a new one on me i have to say and i'm inclined to lable it "pub talk" if i'm honest, having said that i've never had the inside of a cam cover blasted, i see no need either from a monetary veiw point, an engineering/mechanical viewpoint or even from an aesthetic point of veiw.
Agreed. There's no way any sort of cleaning media can stick to the metal in such a way it won't come off with proper cleaning but magically will once the engine's running. Most of the engines I've seen fail prematurely that didn't have an actual mechanical fault did so because of shoddy cleaning practices and crap that got into the oilways. Sticking things in those oversize rotating dishwasher type affairs does NOT clean things properly.
What does is getting in by hand with test tube brushes, burette brushes for the long oilways, old toothbrushes for the nooks and crannies and doing it over and over until not a trace of dirt comes away on your fingers when you feel round everywhere.
What does is getting in by hand with test tube brushes, burette brushes for the long oilways, old toothbrushes for the nooks and crannies and doing it over and over until not a trace of dirt comes away on your fingers when you feel round everywhere.
Evoluzione said:
Be careful of what you are fed.
You're right. And we're being fed a huge steaming dump of horse puckey in this thread. Anyone who can't clean engine parts properly regardless of whether they've been blasted with grit, beads, coconut shells or anything else shouldn't be building engines.S0 What said:
I've had a few blasted over the years and the only issue i've had was on a couple of covers where the design creats traps for the blasting meadia to sit, where say a baffle or brather trap was built in, never heard of the media remaining in the metal until a heat cycle was put through it? a new one on me i have to say and i'm inclined to lable it "pub talk" if i'm honest, having said that i've never had the inside of a cam cover blasted, i see no need either from a monetary veiw point, an engineering/mechanical viewpoint or even from an aesthetic point of veiw.
I missed that bit earlier- I was also talking about the media being trapped behind the baffles etc, not somehow becoming impregnated into the alloy!From http://vaporhoningtechnologies.com/wet-blasting.ht...
Unlike dry blasting, wet blasting is a non-abrasive blast due to the “cushioning effect” the water has. Very fine medias can be used for very delicate surfaces and substrates. Wet blasting does not impregnate media into the surface and creates no heat which eliminates part warping. It is also important to mention that since water is added there is no harmful dust.
From http://www.aloh.co.uk/process/
Difficult stains and resins are cut from the surface using sharp media within a wet blast cabinet set at a low pressure. Vapour blast cleaning of a casting may cause glass media to impregnate the internal surface. Under the influence of engine harmonics, heat and pressure the shards release from the casting into the engines oil. This failure is caused by cavitation. Air bubbles collapse and implode creating a negative pressure. For this reason we finish the castings using a mass vibration process. As a result, the inside shines as much as the outside. Finally each clean casting is placed into another machine containing ceramic ball bearings and lanolin. The ball bearings cascade over the surface of the casting gently burnishing it and changing the finish from white to lustrous aluminium. The finish is uniform and the small media size ensures that nooks and crannies are similar to the main surface.
From http://www.nevb.co.uk/index.php?pageAction=aboutvb
Why vapour blast instead of conventional sandblasting?
Vapour blasting has many advantages over conventional sandblasting, some are listed below:
• The slurry acts to wash the parts, rather than abrade the surface
• No media is impregnated into the surface with vapour blasting, critical for cylinder heads and pistons
• The process creates no dust or static build-up
• Our machine filters broken media out so the finish remains consistent as the media wears/breaks down
Peter
Unlike dry blasting, wet blasting is a non-abrasive blast due to the “cushioning effect” the water has. Very fine medias can be used for very delicate surfaces and substrates. Wet blasting does not impregnate media into the surface and creates no heat which eliminates part warping. It is also important to mention that since water is added there is no harmful dust.
From http://www.aloh.co.uk/process/
Difficult stains and resins are cut from the surface using sharp media within a wet blast cabinet set at a low pressure. Vapour blast cleaning of a casting may cause glass media to impregnate the internal surface. Under the influence of engine harmonics, heat and pressure the shards release from the casting into the engines oil. This failure is caused by cavitation. Air bubbles collapse and implode creating a negative pressure. For this reason we finish the castings using a mass vibration process. As a result, the inside shines as much as the outside. Finally each clean casting is placed into another machine containing ceramic ball bearings and lanolin. The ball bearings cascade over the surface of the casting gently burnishing it and changing the finish from white to lustrous aluminium. The finish is uniform and the small media size ensures that nooks and crannies are similar to the main surface.
From http://www.nevb.co.uk/index.php?pageAction=aboutvb
Why vapour blast instead of conventional sandblasting?
Vapour blasting has many advantages over conventional sandblasting, some are listed below:
• The slurry acts to wash the parts, rather than abrade the surface
• No media is impregnated into the surface with vapour blasting, critical for cylinder heads and pistons
• The process creates no dust or static build-up
• Our machine filters broken media out so the finish remains consistent as the media wears/breaks down
Peter
one eyed mick said:
Recently had a spare cambox blasted and powder coated its not fitted yet as a freind recently lost an engine from oil contamination after blasting , so I'm looking for a product to seal the inside of the cambox ,I know glyptol paint will do it but it is VERY expensive to do 1 job any idea from pro/semipro engine builders , The engine that failed was prepped to very high standard of cleanliness [he wont mind me saying that he is very particular about it ] would high temp paint ,i.e.caliper paint be suitable ? thanks in advance [engine is Mx5 1600 ]
Do not use any form of paint inside an engine, ever. Should you think there's any form of blast media within the cover's surface them medium pressure steam is your answer.Dishwashers work very well on high temp' setting. It is fine to use a detergent too, just ensure the component is steam cleaned afterwards to remove any residue.
I do not know why people media blast engines. Steam is the very best process for industrial cleaning. It seems to have lost its way where people are looking for some 'magic cure' type method. The method? Steam. Note, how do you think bio/pharma Co's clean their process pipework, valves and system components after a production cycle to ensure 100% hygienically clean equipment? Steam...
Having read the above I think that I will care fully wipe out with paint prep pads ,cotton buds etc wash with thinners and steam clean and then care fully paint with glyptol , if it works in production engines I'm sure that it will work in this situation as to bull pucky alot seems to come from scotland via a cat how can you be so sure of things when you have not even met or seen any of the work in question,you may have vast experience but not alot of common sense! .I asked for a way to do some thing and get rants but no sense
This thread could have been shorter if you'd made it clear at the outset you only wanted to see replies that agreed with you that the problem really was magic blasting grit and the only cure was painting over that with magic potion. Can you paint that on at any time or does it have to be at midnight under a full moon using a brush made from the pubic hair of a virgin to work properly?
v8250 said:
Do not use any form of paint inside an engine, ever. Should you think there's any form of blast media within the cover's surface them medium pressure steam is your answer.
Dishwashers work very well on high temp' setting. It is fine to use a detergent too, just ensure the component is steam cleaned afterwards to remove any residue.
I do not know why people media blast engines. Steam is the very best process for industrial cleaning. It seems to have lost its way where people are looking for some 'magic cure' type method. The method? Steam. Note, how do you think bio/pharma Co's clean their process pipework, valves and system components after a production cycle to ensure 100% hygienically clean equipment? Steam...
Several reasons:Dishwashers work very well on high temp' setting. It is fine to use a detergent too, just ensure the component is steam cleaned afterwards to remove any residue.
I do not know why people media blast engines. Steam is the very best process for industrial cleaning. It seems to have lost its way where people are looking for some 'magic cure' type method. The method? Steam. Note, how do you think bio/pharma Co's clean their process pipework, valves and system components after a production cycle to ensure 100% hygienically clean equipment? Steam...
Does steam remove paint? I bet it doesn't remove corrosion.
Blasting an external surface with the correct media gives a very good surface for the paint to cling to, especially for the wrinkle paints many use on cam covers.
Blast cabinets are affordable for the small workshop, they will perform many different types of cleaning operations, steam won't fulfill either of those criteria.
As for putting it in the dishwasher; yes it does what it's supposed to do - clean. It also turns aluminium dark grey and doesn't give it a good surface for paint to adhere to.
To state not use Glyptal is ridiculous, people have been using it for years with no problems although personally I have no use for it.
This topic seems to be jumping all over the place in terms of physics and chemistry. We have accepted, mostly, that media can and does impregnate under pressure into aluminium castings, or the three sources I linked to and all the info I have been given having had a grit blaster since 1989 are lying/is lies? We have used glass bead, metal shot, ally oxide and garnet as blast media and the suppliers have always been very good telling us the problems we can introduce into the work piece. We are working on introducing a baking soda blaster facility using my spare grit blasting cabinet I inherited.
The thread has now moved on to chemical action on aluminium. If you use dishwasher tablets/washing-up powder you are introducing sodium hydroxide into the process, this attacks and damages aluminium, especially if the temp goes over 70 degree C which seems to be the ideal temp for a caustic tank to work well. A good thing to remember when 'cleaning' aluminium in caustic soda/sodium hydroxide mix (dishwasher) is the reaction produces hydrogen, which is a safety no-no in any unit or home workshop in my opinion, it also turns the ally grey!
I attach a link to Wikipedia re NaOH. Interesting about the ally tanker reacting to NaOH half way down the page.
I use acid to clean ally and most of my CI theses days as it is effective at room temps and works better than NaOH on the CI.
Steam cleaning is very good but I am a little wary of having steam generating plant in my unit.
Mick stated a problem at the outset of this thread. His friend lost an engine and a reason could be the media coming out of the ally and contaminating the engine to the extent it was trashed. Mick has had the same process carried out on his rocker cover and has come to the right conclusion he must seal the surface if he is to prevent the problem possibly occuring,if he continues with that rocker cover. He asked if anything cheaper than the very robust Glyptal which has worked and been used professionally for many moons was available. He received aggressive attacks about how he was talking rubbish and 'impregnation' cannot occur. To be honest I think those aggressive posters could do with apologising to Mick.
Peter Burgess
The thread has now moved on to chemical action on aluminium. If you use dishwasher tablets/washing-up powder you are introducing sodium hydroxide into the process, this attacks and damages aluminium, especially if the temp goes over 70 degree C which seems to be the ideal temp for a caustic tank to work well. A good thing to remember when 'cleaning' aluminium in caustic soda/sodium hydroxide mix (dishwasher) is the reaction produces hydrogen, which is a safety no-no in any unit or home workshop in my opinion, it also turns the ally grey!
I attach a link to Wikipedia re NaOH. Interesting about the ally tanker reacting to NaOH half way down the page.
I use acid to clean ally and most of my CI theses days as it is effective at room temps and works better than NaOH on the CI.
Steam cleaning is very good but I am a little wary of having steam generating plant in my unit.
Mick stated a problem at the outset of this thread. His friend lost an engine and a reason could be the media coming out of the ally and contaminating the engine to the extent it was trashed. Mick has had the same process carried out on his rocker cover and has come to the right conclusion he must seal the surface if he is to prevent the problem possibly occuring,if he continues with that rocker cover. He asked if anything cheaper than the very robust Glyptal which has worked and been used professionally for many moons was available. He received aggressive attacks about how he was talking rubbish and 'impregnation' cannot occur. To be honest I think those aggressive posters could do with apologising to Mick.
Peter Burgess
The issue of blast media impregnation into soft metals is one of MICRO impregnation i.e. miniscule pieces of media altering the surface chemistry of the piece that can only be detected by spectroscopy or microscope evaluation which yes, may indeed somewhat alter the properties of a bearing surface against another bearing surface or cause problems with welding. We are not talking here about bloody great chunks of blast media sticking to the metal in such a way it can't be seen or cleaned off but magically falls off when the engine is running and ruins it.
Stop sh11t stirring you argumentative little f**ker.
Edit:
The American Virgin pubic hair protection society confirms that the pubic hair of no virgins was harmed during the making of this post.
Stop sh11t stirring you argumentative little f**ker.
Edit:
The American Virgin pubic hair protection society confirms that the pubic hair of no virgins was harmed during the making of this post.
Edited by Pumaracing on Monday 9th February 08:01
Again the cat from haggis land has to revert to personal insults as usual ,P.B . has shown his common sense approach to things ,thanks Peter ! ,I spent an afternoon swabbing the cover in question with paint prep pads yesterday and removed a surprissing amount of dirt unfortunatly my spectron microscope is away fo service so I was reliant on mk1 eye ball [the non ceramic one!]and clean [well nearly] fingers, next stage is steam clean and then paint -------- with Glyptal bye for now pussy cat lay off the tartan hallucinating juice there a whole world out there !!!!
PeterBurgess said:
From http://www.aloh.co.uk/process/
Vapour blast cleaning of a casting may cause glass media to impregnate the internal surface.
From http://www.nevb.co.uk/index.php?pageAction=aboutvb
• No media is impregnated into the surface with vapour blasting, critical for cylinder heads and pistons
All that is doing is showing that people in the industry can't even agree on it. Vapour blast cleaning of a casting may cause glass media to impregnate the internal surface.
From http://www.nevb.co.uk/index.php?pageAction=aboutvb
• No media is impregnated into the surface with vapour blasting, critical for cylinder heads and pistons
To say that something which contains abrasive and is fired at the part at great velocity to clean off paint and corrosion is 'non abrasive' is BS. They are making stuff up so you use their services because they've invested in expensive equipment that a DIYer or small workshop wouldn't buy. They can buy dry blasting equipment quite easily for varying costs....
I regularly blast motorbike engine components for local race engine builders and have been doing for years, if they were suffering failures I would know all about it by now! The reason they like vapour blasting is because of the satin finish, dry glass bead is matt and doesn't look as attractive.
I use Honite because Guyson recommend it for this specific use, quoting datasheet here:
http://www.guyson.co.uk/assets/uploads/files/guyso...
"Guyson Honite is a premium quality soda-lime glass bead manufactured specifically for impact blast finishing applications.
It is a chemically inert, iron-free product, available in a range of bead sizes and can be used for a wide variety of cleaning, finishing and
peening operations.
TYPICAL APPLICATIONS
Cleaning, Peening, Sheen Surface Finishing, General cleaning of tarnished components, Inert cleaning of sensitive surfaces e.g. auto
parts, moulds and dies, removing heat scale and discolouration, creating a none reflective finish, cosmetic blending and covering surface
defects etc."
Maybe you never heard of it? It already has soda in it....
Edited by Evoluzione on Monday 9th February 18:34
Hiya
Honite is soda-lime glass bead.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soda-lime_glass
I was thinking about using the gentle soda as in baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) for the outside of carbs, manifolds and other ally parts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodablasting
Peter
Honite is soda-lime glass bead.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soda-lime_glass
I was thinking about using the gentle soda as in baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) for the outside of carbs, manifolds and other ally parts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodablasting
Peter
I used baking soda in on of these; http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/jobsmartreg%...
Does a great job of getting rid of crud and tarnishing but by f
k is it messy. Do it outside and hope for rain soon after to wash away the mess.
Does a great job of getting rid of crud and tarnishing but by f
k is it messy. Do it outside and hope for rain soon after to wash away the mess.PeterBurgess said:
Hiya
Honite is soda-lime glass bead.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soda-lime_glass
I was thinking about using the gentle soda as in baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) for the outside of carbs, manifolds and other ally parts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodablasting
Peter
Soda does the job, but it's one use only and painfully slow so quite expensive.Honite is soda-lime glass bead.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soda-lime_glass
I was thinking about using the gentle soda as in baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) for the outside of carbs, manifolds and other ally parts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodablasting
Peter
Informative email contents from Guyson re request for likelyhood of impregnation of glass bead cleaning car engine parts made of ally. My readings are, firstly, yes it can occur when the glass breaks up but not very likely (I wouldn't want to be the one who had the broken up bits in my engine internals) and secondly a true abrasive can impregnate the surface.
Peter
Many thanks for your enquiry and interest in Guyson products.
Honite is a bead and as such will peen a surface rather than abrade it. Obviously, as the beads are recirculated during the blasting process, they will eventually shatter and a small, angular grit like product will appear, but these should be relatively small and in most instances will be removed by the dust extraction / filtration system. Periodically, the beads will have to be topped up with new beads and perhaps even totally replaced in some instances, so please bear this in mind.
In conclusion, it is unlikely that the beads will have a detrimental effect on a surface such as those used in engines and are very unlikely to impregnate the surface, as could be the case with a true abrasive. However, experience tells us that when working with engine components, it is vital that no oils or greases are present prior to the blasting process commencing as even a very small retention of glass bead within a rebuilt engine can have disastrous results!
Peter
Many thanks for your enquiry and interest in Guyson products.
Honite is a bead and as such will peen a surface rather than abrade it. Obviously, as the beads are recirculated during the blasting process, they will eventually shatter and a small, angular grit like product will appear, but these should be relatively small and in most instances will be removed by the dust extraction / filtration system. Periodically, the beads will have to be topped up with new beads and perhaps even totally replaced in some instances, so please bear this in mind.
In conclusion, it is unlikely that the beads will have a detrimental effect on a surface such as those used in engines and are very unlikely to impregnate the surface, as could be the case with a true abrasive. However, experience tells us that when working with engine components, it is vital that no oils or greases are present prior to the blasting process commencing as even a very small retention of glass bead within a rebuilt engine can have disastrous results!
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