Running in oil
Discussion
And by this I mean new oil being run in to achieve maximum performance, not a running in oil for a new engine...
I was talking to a guy on the weekend with impressive qualifications telling me I was wasting my money doing an interim (7500mile) oil change as the manufacturer recommended change was 15k and synthetic oils are designed to 50k (though he didn't mention the stopstart nature of my plug in hybrid and what effect that has given sometimes engine doesn't even warm up over a 30 mile run)
I've always gone to the trivial expense of a 50% of the way through oil change for peace of mind thinking it likely does some good but cannot do any harm.
He disagreed, drawing me a graph of 0-50k miles on X axis, 0-100% oil performance on Y axis. The graph didn't start at 100%, level then dropping towards the 50k, instead it started lower on Y then built up to 100% over first 1000 miles then stayed there until around 50k before dropping off again.
Apparently the early poor performance was caused by the chemicals that are added to keep it fresh in the bottle for however long it's on the shelf for. They burn off initially but reduce the performance of the oil as they do so.
Does anyone *know* about this? It was new to me and his background in engines and academia really made me think he knew what he was talking about. It would suggest changing at 7.5k would actually cause the engine more wear not less since it'd have to get through the initial "running in" period twice per oil change not once.
I appreciate oil discussions usually go off into "I've done this man and boy and therefore it's right" stuff, but I'd really like this thread reserved for people who know from genuine knowledge and science what they're talking about if possible, i.e. subject matter experts.
I was talking to a guy on the weekend with impressive qualifications telling me I was wasting my money doing an interim (7500mile) oil change as the manufacturer recommended change was 15k and synthetic oils are designed to 50k (though he didn't mention the stopstart nature of my plug in hybrid and what effect that has given sometimes engine doesn't even warm up over a 30 mile run)
I've always gone to the trivial expense of a 50% of the way through oil change for peace of mind thinking it likely does some good but cannot do any harm.
He disagreed, drawing me a graph of 0-50k miles on X axis, 0-100% oil performance on Y axis. The graph didn't start at 100%, level then dropping towards the 50k, instead it started lower on Y then built up to 100% over first 1000 miles then stayed there until around 50k before dropping off again.
Apparently the early poor performance was caused by the chemicals that are added to keep it fresh in the bottle for however long it's on the shelf for. They burn off initially but reduce the performance of the oil as they do so.
Does anyone *know* about this? It was new to me and his background in engines and academia really made me think he knew what he was talking about. It would suggest changing at 7.5k would actually cause the engine more wear not less since it'd have to get through the initial "running in" period twice per oil change not once.
I appreciate oil discussions usually go off into "I've done this man and boy and therefore it's right" stuff, but I'd really like this thread reserved for people who know from genuine knowledge and science what they're talking about if possible, i.e. subject matter experts.
Edited by supermono on Tuesday 5th January 18:21
Maybe the best way is to contact oil manufacturers and ask them so it will be straight from the horses mouth?
We have always had good advice from Silkolene, now Fuchs lubricants.
There is a contact link on this page of their website http://www.fuchslubricants.com/services
Morris Lubricants have always been good too http://www.morrislubricants.co.uk/
If you find out more information it would be nice to hear what they say.
Peter
We have always had good advice from Silkolene, now Fuchs lubricants.
There is a contact link on this page of their website http://www.fuchslubricants.com/services
Morris Lubricants have always been good too http://www.morrislubricants.co.uk/
If you find out more information it would be nice to hear what they say.
Peter
PeterBurgess said:
Maybe the best way is to contact oil manufacturers and ask them so it will be straight from the horses mouth?
We have always had good advice from Silkolene, now Fuchs lubricants.
There is a contact link on this page of their website http://www.fuchslubricants.com/services
Morris Lubricants have always been good too http://www.morrislubricants.co.uk/
If you find out more information it would be nice to hear what they say.
Peter
Surely they will try and get you to change it as often as possible? ££££We have always had good advice from Silkolene, now Fuchs lubricants.
There is a contact link on this page of their website http://www.fuchslubricants.com/services
Morris Lubricants have always been good too http://www.morrislubricants.co.uk/
If you find out more information it would be nice to hear what they say.
Peter
I don't care what a random guy says, 50k service change intervals will not work on modern cars.
Pretty sure it would be sludge by then, and I would argue that oil is most effective when it is brand new.
It doesn't "get better" as it gets older, while i'm not a chemist what possible chemical reaction would mean it would "get better" - not to mention there will be maybe half a litre of oil still left in the engine despite draining it - so the minute you start your engine your new oil has been diluted by half a liter or so of older oil.
50k, hah, what's he trying to do? bill you for a new engine? you will get build up from all the gunk! the oil filter will probably be so clogged the bypass valve will be stuck open.
15k is the acceptable maximum for most people , who do a majority of motorway journeys. but if you do a lot of stop/start driving around town then it's 8-10k.
this is in line with manufacturers recommendations.
we don't need to be a "subject matter expert" to know that, and to be honest i can't believe you even are considering believing the mans nonsense
Pretty sure it would be sludge by then, and I would argue that oil is most effective when it is brand new.
It doesn't "get better" as it gets older, while i'm not a chemist what possible chemical reaction would mean it would "get better" - not to mention there will be maybe half a litre of oil still left in the engine despite draining it - so the minute you start your engine your new oil has been diluted by half a liter or so of older oil.
50k, hah, what's he trying to do? bill you for a new engine? you will get build up from all the gunk! the oil filter will probably be so clogged the bypass valve will be stuck open.
15k is the acceptable maximum for most people , who do a majority of motorway journeys. but if you do a lot of stop/start driving around town then it's 8-10k.
this is in line with manufacturers recommendations.
we don't need to be a "subject matter expert" to know that, and to be honest i can't believe you even are considering believing the mans nonsense
Berw said:
I've never heard any one in the industry talk about 50K between changes in fact the opposite all the people I know in private conversations advise 10K changes as a max and do not follow the line on the company literature that high millage is OK.
I'd say a lot of 50k oil/filter changes are not uncommon. People just arent so aware of it happening.The simple explanation of this is "main dealers"
Of course I will need to say not all do this etc etc etc But it's no secret that far far too often proper servicing work is simply not carried out as it should be. Whether it's oil, filter, air filters and without question pollen filters etc
Dealers are huge culprits in this respect and often through a crs life within the dealer network, standards are very very poor. Even more so with some of the so called offers on hand for cheap "servicing"...and I use that term lightly as often it appears a service to them means washing and cleaning the car.
But there is also no doubt, 50k in most cars/engines with a GOOD quality synthetic oil really isnt a big task.
A classic example of failing to read the OP properly. First of all I'm doing 7.5k oil changes, 50% through recommended 15k. Secondly this chap wasn't advocating 50k changes, rather he was just saying that from his university studies and industry experience (not a random bloke BTW) the oil companies were designing oils with a 50k theoretical life. This he suggested meant that the 15k wasn't stretching them.
And thirdly, my *actual* question for which you would need to be a subject matter expert to answer, was around this shelf life preserving chemical(s) he spoke about. These apparently take a short while to disperse hence reduce the initial oil performance.
I knew it was a minefield so I thought I was super clear, apparently I wasn't.
(@xjay1337 BTW as post came in between)
And thirdly, my *actual* question for which you would need to be a subject matter expert to answer, was around this shelf life preserving chemical(s) he spoke about. These apparently take a short while to disperse hence reduce the initial oil performance.
I knew it was a minefield so I thought I was super clear, apparently I wasn't.
(@xjay1337 BTW as post came in between)
Sorry Stevie I disagree completely, every one I know who works in an oil laboratory (and I know a few) officially and the story is high millage on modern oil is OK, the company line, talk to them off the record or ask what they do themselves and they all change at 10K miles. Same with the car manufactures I've never meet any one who works in engine development who runs more than 10 K in their own car despite what the line from their employer may be.
What shelf life preserving chemical would be in there that the oil wouldn't already need for resisting oxidation whilst being pumped around at pressure at 90-130*c. Oxidation resistance and TBN to neutralise acid byproducts is a big thing in oils...
You're telling me it needs something special that only works in a sealed plastic bottle with a few CC of air in the top whilst sat stationary at 20c?
You're telling me it needs something special that only works in a sealed plastic bottle with a few CC of air in the top whilst sat stationary at 20c?
PhillipM said:
What shelf life preserving chemical would be in there that the oil wouldn't already need for resisting oxidation whilst being pumped around at pressure at 90-130*c. Oxidation resistance and TBN to neutralise acid byproducts is a big thing in oils...
You're telling me it needs something special that only works in a sealed plastic bottle with a few CC of air in the top whilst sat stationary at 20c?
Well no I'm not telling anyone anything, I'm just asking if what I was told has any basis in reality.You're telling me it needs something special that only works in a sealed plastic bottle with a few CC of air in the top whilst sat stationary at 20c?
stevieturbo said:
I'd say a lot of 50k oil/filter changes are not uncommon. People just arent so aware of it happening.
The simple explanation of this is "main dealers"
Of course I will need to say not all do this etc etc etc But it's no secret that far far too often proper servicing work is simply not carried out as it should be. Whether it's oil, filter, air filters and without question pollen filters etc
Dealers are huge culprits in this respect and often through a crs life within the dealer network, standards are very very poor. Even more so with some of the so called offers on hand for cheap "servicing"...and I use that term lightly as often it appears a service to them means washing and cleaning the car.
But there is also no doubt, 50k in most cars/engines with a GOOD quality synthetic oil really isnt a big task.
Stevie I agree totally with you on this one The simple explanation of this is "main dealers"
Of course I will need to say not all do this etc etc etc But it's no secret that far far too often proper servicing work is simply not carried out as it should be. Whether it's oil, filter, air filters and without question pollen filters etc
Dealers are huge culprits in this respect and often through a crs life within the dealer network, standards are very very poor. Even more so with some of the so called offers on hand for cheap "servicing"...and I use that term lightly as often it appears a service to them means washing and cleaning the car.
But there is also no doubt, 50k in most cars/engines with a GOOD quality synthetic oil really isnt a big task.
(I run a small independent business)........ but not on the last bit regardless of how good an oil is or how late the engine is 10k is max IMO 
personally for the cost involved I dont go half that, I know the repair/rebuild costs same as yourself pay now or pay later 
most of it is just manufacturers bragging to fleet buyers "look how long our service intervals are blah blah) but rest assured when the motor expirs early but out of warranty I am quite sure the dealers will gladly sell you a new engine along with the associated labour etc, strange that 
just my cents worth not a dig Stevie 
thebraketester said:
I emailed Millers Oil
_______________
Hi.
I am a user of Millers Nano 5w40 oil. Brilliant oil (or so it seems by lack of engine component wear)
I am currently servicing my car myself every 5000 miles. I came upon a thread on pistonheads, which suggests that oil is less effective during its first “period” of use. If this is true then it might suggest that changing oil more frequently could actually increase engine wear.
link to thread in question..
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Is there any truth behind this? Am I right to change oil as often as 5000 miles or would 10,000 miles be in fact better?
Many thanks for your help and advise.
_______________
Direct from Colin Beard @ Millers Oil _______________
Hi.
I am a user of Millers Nano 5w40 oil. Brilliant oil (or so it seems by lack of engine component wear)
I am currently servicing my car myself every 5000 miles. I came upon a thread on pistonheads, which suggests that oil is less effective during its first “period” of use. If this is true then it might suggest that changing oil more frequently could actually increase engine wear.
link to thread in question..
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Is there any truth behind this? Am I right to change oil as often as 5000 miles or would 10,000 miles be in fact better?
Many thanks for your help and advise.
_______________
"Thanks for the glowing comments on our CFS 5w40 NT. People do have their own opinions on how often oil should be changed, but it does depend on how hard you are running the vehicle, climate etc.
But we would recommend still changing 5,000 miles."
"The oil will work optimally after 2 or 3 good runs in the car, but definitely not 1000 miles."
thebraketester said:
Direct from Colin Beard @ Millers Oil
"Thanks for the glowing comments on our CFS 5w40 NT. People do have their own opinions on how often oil should be changed, but it does depend on how hard you are running the vehicle, climate etc.
But we would recommend still changing 5,000 miles."
"The oil will work optimally after 2 or 3 good runs in the car, but definitely not 1000 miles."
Did you ask why?"Thanks for the glowing comments on our CFS 5w40 NT. People do have their own opinions on how often oil should be changed, but it does depend on how hard you are running the vehicle, climate etc.
But we would recommend still changing 5,000 miles."
"The oil will work optimally after 2 or 3 good runs in the car, but definitely not 1000 miles."
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