Running in oil
Discussion
xjay1337 said:
OK, no-ones debating that there may be items in oil that stabilise it, we are talking about 50k service life.
Where's that?
Perhaps you should read my original post, the 50k was an irrelevant piece of data to illustrate the graph. Nobody at any point was advocating a 50k oil change -- not him, not me, not anybody.Where's that?
The question was around a potential running in period for oil -- like what it says in the title.
xjay1337 said:
Haha. It still makes me laugh you believe some random guy in real life with a preposterous idea instead of random blokes on the internet with logical ideas.
Out of interest did you make a decision one day that you now know everything and from now on anything new is laughable and preposterous?For me every day's a school day and it's fascinating to have "knowledge" challenged. Hey we're all different though
supermono said:
Out of interest did you make a decision one day that you now know everything and from now on anything new is laughable and preposterous?
For me every day's a school day and it's fascinating to have "knowledge" challenged. Hey we're all different though
I'm happy to learn new things.For me every day's a school day and it's fascinating to have "knowledge" challenged. Hey we're all different though
But the notion that "oil is better after X miles" is non-sensicle and when someone's OP quotes "knowledge" from someone who says oil is up to doing 50k is not learning new things or challenging knowledge, which I am happy to do. With proof.
I've seen no proof.
chammyman said:
SuperchargedVR6 said:
Are you sure those engines didn't have an oil pump chain snap on them?
I've stripped loads of 1.8Ts and R32 engines well past 100K on the longlife oil service and sure, the casings looked like they had been caked in creosote but the vital components had negligible wear. I've only seen wear like that in (VAG) engines with oil pump failure.
Surely, as a car maker, it would be professional suicide to offer 20K oil intervals if the engine / oil weren't up to it? I don't buy into the philosophy that these engines are made to last the warranty period and no more. 1000s of ex-lease / company VAGs are still going strong in the privately owned market, which were previously on the longlife service regime.
Whilst I agree 50K intervals are pushing things a bit too far, 20K isn't horrendous on a standard engine. If someone massively increases blow-by from whacking the boost up, then sure, that will dictate a different oil change schedule. Similarly, if someone only pootles to the shops, as opposed to keeping the contaminants boiled off on regular motorway runs, that also means a shorter interval.
VAGs also have variable servicing, using the oil condition sensor in the sump. Customers can also switch to 10K or 20K fixed, if they like.
No they never suffered from that but you raise a very good point.I've stripped loads of 1.8Ts and R32 engines well past 100K on the longlife oil service and sure, the casings looked like they had been caked in creosote but the vital components had negligible wear. I've only seen wear like that in (VAG) engines with oil pump failure.
Surely, as a car maker, it would be professional suicide to offer 20K oil intervals if the engine / oil weren't up to it? I don't buy into the philosophy that these engines are made to last the warranty period and no more. 1000s of ex-lease / company VAGs are still going strong in the privately owned market, which were previously on the longlife service regime.
Whilst I agree 50K intervals are pushing things a bit too far, 20K isn't horrendous on a standard engine. If someone massively increases blow-by from whacking the boost up, then sure, that will dictate a different oil change schedule. Similarly, if someone only pootles to the shops, as opposed to keeping the contaminants boiled off on regular motorway runs, that also means a shorter interval.
VAGs also have variable servicing, using the oil condition sensor in the sump. Customers can also switch to 10K or 20K fixed, if they like.
When we purchased the engines the sumps were pulled to check, usually the only thing they let you do.
On the vag nonsense check to see if the oil chain was there, if the silly plastic tensioner arm was there in 1 piece and check to see if it would turn seperate to the crank or not.
Many a time I witnessed the monkeys in assembly (I was stuck into warrenty returns from the get go then done a bit of buying) hitting the T45 on the pulley with the airgun and watching that tensioner arm flaps about like a machine gun slide.
The bottom line is europe is the only place were these silly service schedules are mainstream.
The longlife indicator is frequently ignored, surely you must know this. Also the fact that the right oil is rarely if ever used.
one eyed mick said:
There is too much bull poo on this if oil needs running in why is race oil changed as often as every 30/40 mile race ?
The information came from a professional within the oil industry working in a commercial laboratory. I assume your degree level education around oils and lubricants backed with your many years working daily analysing and formulating oils allows you to call that bull poo. Good for you.But as a lowly office worker, I have to go with the expert.
supermono said:
one eyed mick said:
There is too much bull poo on this if oil needs running in why is race oil changed as often as every 30/40 mile race ?
The information came from a professional within the oil industry working in a commercial laboratory. I assume your degree level education around oils and lubricants backed with your many years working daily analysing and formulating oils allows you to call that bull poo. Good for you.But as a lowly office worker, I have to go with the expert.
supermono said:
The information came from a professional within the oil industry working in a commercial laboratory. I assume your degree level education around oils and lubricants backed with your many years working daily analysing and formulating oils allows you to call that bull poo. Good for you.
But as a lowly office worker, I have to go with the expert.
My degree comes from the university of life and 50 +years building engines , maintaining equipment from 25cc two strokes to 16 litre air cooled diesels and more than a few competition engines ,the problem with so called experts they dont live in the real practical world there is no substitute for fresh oil !But as a lowly office worker, I have to go with the expert.
George111 said:
So are you saying that you believe oil takes 1000 miles to start working at full efficiency ?
No but I believe that it has additives which during the initial period of perhaps 1000 miles will burn off and potentially cause soot issues if you continually used fresh oil within a few hundred miles. But that's just what I've been told and I have no better source of information. Also it sounds rather too specific to have been made up.supermono said:
No but I believe that it has additives which during the initial period of perhaps 1000 miles will burn off and potentially cause soot issues if you continually used fresh oil within a few hundred miles. But that's just what I've been told and I have no better source of information. Also it sounds rather too specific to have been made up.
There's a chemical H9C2 which is left around engines after old oil. New oil washes this gunk away.Very specific and also completely made up.
I thought I would email Fuchs lubricants and ask the question about running in oil. I think it was difficult to ask the question in the correct manner, I was asking in terms of effects on a race engine that needs to 'go for it' straight away, but here is the response.......
Hi Peter
Thanks for the enquiry – as I am the proud keeper of a BGT (’75 Jubilee) your name instantly rung a bell! It’s an interesting question you have posed, which I don’t think we have ever had to answer before... there is a really good research paper to give some guidance on this; 'Evolution of tribofilms under lubricating conditions experienced in valve trains' (p97-108).
Firstly I just need to say that the idea about oils being ‘volatile initially’ is certainly not true of all engine oils, and also not at all relevant to the additive/surface chemistry effects that you are interested in here. Basic and mid range engine oils formulated with Group 1 and Group 2 base oils will have a relatively broad boiling point distribution and therefore will contain some lighter more volatile components which can evaporate from the oil over time, but fully synthetic racing oils are very specific boiling point mixtures that will not have any stray light components.
Back to the main question; how long does it take for the phosphorus to react with the metal surfaces, and how would this affect your choice of oil... Ultimately the paper is looking at the effect of molybdenum as it compares an oil with and without the MoDTC (molybdenum dithiocarbamate), and shows that significant changes to the friction coefficient of the test system occurred after around 15 minutes of running, and did not show a significant change with the temperatures used, which were between 30 and 80°C .
Nevertheless what we can take from this, due to all the elemental analysis which was conducted, and the discussion pg 102 onwards, is that the phosphorus from the ZDDP has already reacted and formed protective layers on the metal before the molybdenum takes hold and reduces the friction. This formation of phosphate layers seems to occur almost as soon as the iron oxide layer is removed, or at least within the next few minutes. Basically these reactions will go along with the bedding in process of any new components, and there is not likely to be a huge difference between one type of oil and the next in this respect as the ZDDP type can only vary by so much. But molybdenum containing oils do have a significant effect in reducing friction which in turn will prevent wear and reduce power loss, and these effects will be apparent after just 15 or so minutes of running at idle...
Hope this is food for thought, and that you weren’t expecting a short answer!
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=BIEtt70piZ4C&a...
Hi Peter
Thanks for the enquiry – as I am the proud keeper of a BGT (’75 Jubilee) your name instantly rung a bell! It’s an interesting question you have posed, which I don’t think we have ever had to answer before... there is a really good research paper to give some guidance on this; 'Evolution of tribofilms under lubricating conditions experienced in valve trains' (p97-108).
Firstly I just need to say that the idea about oils being ‘volatile initially’ is certainly not true of all engine oils, and also not at all relevant to the additive/surface chemistry effects that you are interested in here. Basic and mid range engine oils formulated with Group 1 and Group 2 base oils will have a relatively broad boiling point distribution and therefore will contain some lighter more volatile components which can evaporate from the oil over time, but fully synthetic racing oils are very specific boiling point mixtures that will not have any stray light components.
Back to the main question; how long does it take for the phosphorus to react with the metal surfaces, and how would this affect your choice of oil... Ultimately the paper is looking at the effect of molybdenum as it compares an oil with and without the MoDTC (molybdenum dithiocarbamate), and shows that significant changes to the friction coefficient of the test system occurred after around 15 minutes of running, and did not show a significant change with the temperatures used, which were between 30 and 80°C .
Nevertheless what we can take from this, due to all the elemental analysis which was conducted, and the discussion pg 102 onwards, is that the phosphorus from the ZDDP has already reacted and formed protective layers on the metal before the molybdenum takes hold and reduces the friction. This formation of phosphate layers seems to occur almost as soon as the iron oxide layer is removed, or at least within the next few minutes. Basically these reactions will go along with the bedding in process of any new components, and there is not likely to be a huge difference between one type of oil and the next in this respect as the ZDDP type can only vary by so much. But molybdenum containing oils do have a significant effect in reducing friction which in turn will prevent wear and reduce power loss, and these effects will be apparent after just 15 or so minutes of running at idle...
Hope this is food for thought, and that you weren’t expecting a short answer!
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=BIEtt70piZ4C&a...
Edited by PeterBurgess on Wednesday 20th January 11:20
The other papers in that link by the same bloke are interesting too. The one on steady state differences is thought provoking how even under same rpm and load there are variations in power, and that is at constant rpm and load!
I suppose this thread all highlights how we take oils for granted.
Peter
I suppose this thread all highlights how we take oils for granted.
Peter
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