Kit car engine. Original ECU, or independent aftermarket one

[robinessex]

Right, must admit my total ignorance of modern ECU and the CAN bus system. My knowledge of ignition system is still in the days of when distributors were starting to be replaced with electronic ignition system. So, I’m kit car engine planning at the moment. It’s going to be a V8 of some sort, out of an crashed car. Now, initially it seems commonsense to me to buy an engine complete with loom and ECU. But, how do I know I’ve been given ALL the bits that will ensure the bloody runs when I put it together? It’s no good the guy stuffing the ECU and a chunk of wiring loom in my hands, and saying ‘It’s all there mate’, when, 6 months later, I’m either stumped trying to figure it all out, a bit is missing, or I manage to connect it up, but it won’t start. The alternative is to buy an after market ECU (Emerald or similar), and follow the instructions re connecting it all up. At least that route has a guy on the end of a phone who can sort out issues. Whereas I’d be stuck trying to ask a main dealer help if I can’t get one of his engines in my kit car sorted. Thoughts please guys.

Found this, so I'm filling up my brain with all the stuff I've got behind with:-

http://www.dvapower.com/

Edited by robinessex on Sunday 13th March 15:05

[marshalla]

Personally, I'd go after market - that way you don't run the risk of having to rip out an ECU that won't work because it's waiting for bits of the security system (that you don't have) to allow it to do anything. You'll also get more options for tuning and customisation and, as you hint, you'll have some half-decent documentation to work from instead of trying to guess what the OEM people were thinking.

[robinessex]

marshalla said:

Personally, I'd go after market - that way you don't run the risk of having to rip out an ECU that won't work because it's waiting for bits of the security system (that you don't have) to allow it to do anything. You'll also get more options for tuning and customisation.

Yes, one thing I did wonder about was the security stuff.

[stevieturbo]

Obviously a lot depends on what engine and car you're taking the engine from.

Older stuff will be easy, the more modern you go the more complicated it can get, especially with Euro or Jap vehicles.

Fortunately the LS engine is a doddle to work with despite being reasonably modern

[anonymous-user]

Unless you are on a very tight budget, go aftermarket. By now, most ecu suppliers will have a library of common maps / setups, so there is a good chance of getting a starter calibration to get you up and running.

Any post ~2005 engine is going to require an extremely complex raft of support to run in a non standard application.

And of course, another good reason is that if you want to modify / tune the engine at later date, then that is easy with an aftermarket ecu without encurring much further cost ;-)

[robinessex]

Right guys, lots of reading stuff on the net, getting up to speed. Seems as if 3rd party is the way to go. Something like Emerald will connect up quite easily with all the 'bits' on the engine, pretty well standard stuff really. It does make the selection of an engine much easier. Fancy a Audi, V8 (£4,800 on Ebay) or maybe V10, or maybe a V10 M5. You get the gearbox for rear engine car with the Audi. There is the more exotic Italian stuff out there, but it's a bit expensive.

[stevieturbo]

robinessex said:

Right guys, lots of reading stuff on the net, getting up to speed. Seems as if 3rd party is the way to go. Something like Emerald will connect up quite easily with all the 'bits' on the engine, pretty well standard stuff really. It does make the selection of an engine much easier. Fancy a Audi, V8 (£4,800 on Ebay) or maybe V10, or maybe a V10 M5. You get the gearbox for rear engine car with the Audi. There is the more exotic Italian stuff out there, but it's a bit expensive.

I think you're being more than bit hopeful if you think Emerald will run a modern BMW V10 engine !

Really you need to know exactly what engine first, then decide on an ecu that can run it. Judging by your prices you're after something modern...which in turn means more complicated

[robinessex]

Why? Emerald website goes clearly through what's it capable of, what sensors it can utilise from the engine. Seems as if a standard set of inputs and controls are available from the engine, and the Emerald unit can utilise all of them. Can you tell me what it can't handle, as I'd like to know ?

[stevieturbo]

robinessex said:

Why? Emerald website goes clearly through what's it capable of, what sensors it can utilise from the engine. Seems as if a standard set of inputs and controls are available from the engine, and the Emerald unit can utilise all of them. Can you tell me what it can't handle, as I'd like to know ?

Number of cylinders

VANOS on inlet and exhaust

Dual DBW setup

Not sure where on their website you think it says it can cope with such an engine ? It simply doesnt have anywhere near the number of I/O's to come close, nevermind any control software to handle it.

[robinessex]

stevieturbo said:

robinessex said:

Why? Emerald website goes clearly through what's it capable of, what sensors it can utilise from the engine. Seems as if a standard set of inputs and controls are available from the engine, and the Emerald unit can utilise all of them. Can you tell me what it can't handle, as I'd like to know ?

Number of cylinders

VANOS on inlet and exhaust

Dual DBW setup

Not sure where on their website you think it says it can cope with such an engine ? It simply doesnt have anywhere near the number of I/O's to come close, nevermind any control software to handle it.

It can handle up to 12cyls. I was thinking of the Audi V8 from the R8. VANOS status of Emerald unknown. I think DBW is in the pipe line, but a plain throttle link with a pot in the shaft will be ok.

This is an interesting link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVwM_OJ8Z4g

Thanks for the input, I'm trying to teach myself as much as I can.

[stevieturbo]

robinessex said:

It can handle up to 12cyls. I was thinking of the Audi V8 from the R8. VANOS status of Emerald unknown. I think DBW is in the pipe line, but a plain throttle link with a pot in the shaft will be ok.

This is an interesting link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVwM_OJ8Z4g

Thanks for the input, I'm trying to teach myself as much as I can.

5/10cyls are a strange thing though. It's easy for ecu's to run engines with 2, 4, 6, 12...5 and 10 get a little more awkward and not all of them will do it, especially when they're reliant on wasted spark and batch fire running.

DBW itself eats a lot of inputs...dual DBW even more. Emerald isnt anywhere near that. And TBH it's only fairly expensive ecu's that will even now.

Likewise dual VANOS/VVT running in closed loop...again it eats a lot of inputs and outputs to monitor it all properly. Emerald isnt anywhere near that either.

It isnt knocking Emerald, it's a budget ecu, and the M5 engine is beyond the realms of that.

Really it would be a lot easier to source an older Audi engine, with mechanical throttles and no variable valve timing silliness.

That would make everything a lot easier and cheaper to do.

For the modern Audi stuff, Syvecs do plug n play ecu's for their engines, so in that respect life could be made a lot easier. The ecu to run all the fancy bits will cost more, but they'll already have good calibrations for the engine so most setup and tuning is already taken care of.
You could still use your own wiring loom then quite easily rather than trying to get a wiring loom from the car ( although that may still be handy for all the connectors at the engine )

http://www.syvecs.co.uk/products/engine-management...

[stevieturbo]

Also...for Audi swaps, take a look at this.

Whilst it's an Audi swap....into an Audi, still loads of good info here.

http://www.v8forum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=102...

[robinessex]

stevieturbo said:

Also...for Audi swaps, take a look at this.

Whilst it's an Audi swap....into an Audi, still loads of good info here.

http://www.v8forum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=102...

Thanks, I'll have a look. Learning a lot here now !! I initially picked the V8 from a R8 as it's as newer engine, so I would hope lower mileage examples are around. Plus it should be available with a gearbox, which is a useful item to have !!

[stevieturbo]

robinessex said:

Thanks, I'll have a look. Learning a lot here now !! I initially picked the V8 from a R8 as it's as newer engine, so I would hope lower mileage examples are around. Plus it should be available with a gearbox, which is a useful item to have !!

Gearboxes are handy for sure lol, but newer and lower mileage arent always good things, mainly due to the complexity.

That said, the Syvecs will run the new engines and gearboxes, so it could make for one hell of a fancy kit car with proper flappy paddle DCT gearbox !

As you see in that guys thread though, the older Audi V8 should be easy given the many Audi transaxles there are available, and be much easier to control the engine.

I wouldnt be overly worried about mileage, just get a good running engine. Sometimes a complete car can be handiest way as you get a huge surplus of parts for any swap

[C Lee Farquar]

stevieturbo said:

I think you're being more than bit hopeful if you think Emerald will run a modern BMW V10 engine !

[Evoluzione]

SC do a fair list of specific ECUs already with some of the features you need:
http://twinkam.co.uk/epages/191f6b26-60bf-483c-b02...

and are pretty adept at what they do as they actually design and make their own so could be persuaded to do one for your engine if it's not listed. You would have to take an original working car to them in Norfolk to work from though.

[Tony427]

If money is no object and you want to up power from the original engine then go aftermarket.

I've gone the BMW V8 route with standard ECu and it was a complete nightmare and BMW were no help whatsoever.

I've also gone the 1UZFE ( Lexus) engine route ( twice) and with standard ecu (as long as its pre vvti) its a piece of cake to wire in.

Anything more complex and I'd be looking to go down the megasquirt route myself for the best combination of ease, support and spend.

Cheers,

Tony

[k20erham]

Hi 2nd vote for specialist components typhoon or Tornado ECU's will run most anything with ease and include traction control and launch video on the web of one running the BMW V10, Simon and his team are very very helpful and obviously Simon knows his stuff as he wrote the software, prices are keen too

[robinessex]

Thanks for the input guys. Incidently, I've had an equiry response from Emerald, and they say DBW is on the way, and it can handle 1 VANOS camshaft. Aparently a lot of hardware exists within their present ECU that's not being used at the moment. Not that helps right now for use with some engines.

[carsounds_dan]

Aftermarket every day.

I'd steer clear of the usual kit car prospects for ECUs though and look at the more advanced stuff that's on the market - the initial cost might be appear to be an extra 10-20% but you get all the hardware in one box, whereas the "cheaper" manufacturers require external drivers for wideband lambda, DBW etc which all add up.
Motorsport ECUs also run strategies that are able to run much more complex engines [think Audi FSi engine's such as the R8 lump etc.], along with having safety trips should the worst happen such as loss of oil pressure, fuel starvation... Using an Emerald, DTA or MBE in this day an age just doesn't make sense when you really look into what's available.