Charge cooler or intercooler? Which would suit?
Discussion
Looking for a bit of advice with a forced induction question if anyone can help?
I have a Civic Type R running a Rotrex c30-94 supercharger. It has been mapped this week and we have had to keep the power relatively low (263bhp compared to a standard 197) due to the inlet temps.
When running on the dyno and out on the road giving it a good run the temps were hitting almost 90 degrees! Normal use sees them about 55-60 which is still way off so the ignition timing is being retarded to stop det (I am neither a mechanic nor a tuner so please accept my apologies if o am wrong there)
Anyway, I need to fit either an intercooler (air to air) or a charge cooler (water cooled) and wanted to see if anyone had any experience of which I should use?
Space is limited behind the bumper as i have the rad, aircon and an oil cooler currently so the smaller and more efficient option would be great.
Cheers for any help!!
I have a Civic Type R running a Rotrex c30-94 supercharger. It has been mapped this week and we have had to keep the power relatively low (263bhp compared to a standard 197) due to the inlet temps.
When running on the dyno and out on the road giving it a good run the temps were hitting almost 90 degrees! Normal use sees them about 55-60 which is still way off so the ignition timing is being retarded to stop det (I am neither a mechanic nor a tuner so please accept my apologies if o am wrong there)
Anyway, I need to fit either an intercooler (air to air) or a charge cooler (water cooled) and wanted to see if anyone had any experience of which I should use?
Space is limited behind the bumper as i have the rad, aircon and an oil cooler currently so the smaller and more efficient option would be great.
Cheers for any help!!
I spent 30 years designing and manufacturing OEM intercoolers.
You have to make the best choice based mainly on packaging and installation difficulties.
This favours water cooling where no prior thought has been given to air cooling when the vehicle was first designed.
In principle air cooling is more efficient because ambient air,the cooling medium,will always be cooler than engine coolant leaving the radiator which is the alternative cooling medium.
You have to make the best choice based mainly on packaging and installation difficulties.
This favours water cooling where no prior thought has been given to air cooling when the vehicle was first designed.
In principle air cooling is more efficient because ambient air,the cooling medium,will always be cooler than engine coolant leaving the radiator which is the alternative cooling medium.
Thanks mate. I thought air-to-air would be the best for cooling but it will be tight getting one in! Just had a look at intake temp was around 54 degrees when I got to work so definitely need to do something.
I'm kind of struggling to see how a charge cooler actually cools the air as my coolant temp seems to be 80-90 degrees?!
I'm kind of struggling to see how a charge cooler actually cools the air as my coolant temp seems to be 80-90 degrees?!
Given your admitted lack of knowledge etc....
Just buy a kit that someone makes one, fit it to the car and be happy
No sense complicating things if you cannot fabricate or build them yourself.
And strictly speaking no, the ecu will not be pulling timing....if everything was tuned at those charge temps, than that is simply "normal" for you car and setup and the tuner should have optimised things based around that. Nothing wrong with normal as long as it's always normal.
But yes there would be potential for more power with cooler charge temperatures and tuning would need checked and possibly adjusted again after this.
Air/Air is always simplest and usually cheapest so if someone makes a kit, go for it.
Failing that then a water/air chargecooler may be needed but does add a little complication, but may perhaps be a little easier to package as individual items can be smaller
But really...someone is bound to just make a bolt on kit.
Just buy a kit that someone makes one, fit it to the car and be happy
No sense complicating things if you cannot fabricate or build them yourself.
And strictly speaking no, the ecu will not be pulling timing....if everything was tuned at those charge temps, than that is simply "normal" for you car and setup and the tuner should have optimised things based around that. Nothing wrong with normal as long as it's always normal.
But yes there would be potential for more power with cooler charge temperatures and tuning would need checked and possibly adjusted again after this.
Air/Air is always simplest and usually cheapest so if someone makes a kit, go for it.
Failing that then a water/air chargecooler may be needed but does add a little complication, but may perhaps be a little easier to package as individual items can be smaller
But really...someone is bound to just make a bolt on kit.
air to air is the best if you can get it in, otherwise air to water.
I messed around endlessy with air to water, ultimately replacing with a intercooler which was cheaper and more efficient.
Having said that, theres a thread on the hsv section where they are using the a/c to cool the chargecooler water with and getting very impressive results which are sustainable. I was sceptical, but the solution is well engineered and leveragess an a/c system that has plenty of spare capacity.
I messed around endlessy with air to water, ultimately replacing with a intercooler which was cheaper and more efficient.
Having said that, theres a thread on the hsv section where they are using the a/c to cool the chargecooler water with and getting very impressive results which are sustainable. I was sceptical, but the solution is well engineered and leveragess an a/c system that has plenty of spare capacity.
eliot said:
air to air is the best if you can get it in, otherwise air to water.
I messed around endlessy with air to water, ultimately replacing with a intercooler which was cheaper and more efficient.
Having said that, theres a thread on the hsv section where they are using the a/c to cool the chargecooler water with and getting very impressive results which are sustainable. I was sceptical, but the solution is well engineered and leveragess an a/c system that has plenty of spare capacity.
You can't really state 'the best' as it's not that simple. Water cooled makes for a much more responsive engine for instance.I messed around endlessy with air to water, ultimately replacing with a intercooler which was cheaper and more efficient.
Having said that, theres a thread on the hsv section where they are using the a/c to cool the chargecooler water with and getting very impressive results which are sustainable. I was sceptical, but the solution is well engineered and leveragess an a/c system that has plenty of spare capacity.
What is 'HSV section'?
227bhp said:
You can't really state 'the best' as it's not that simple. Water cooled makes for a much more responsive engine for instance.
What is 'HSV section'?
The internet may say that the short intake v the long pipework for intercooler makes it more responsive - i've done both and couldn't tell any difference, apart from cooler inlet temps that stay cool with air.What is 'HSV section'?
The problem with air to water is that you have two sets of inefficiencys (air>water>air), wheres air to air is only one.
Thread on interchillers along with my sceptical (wrong) opinion:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=153...
My messing around with chargecoolers:
http://www.mez.co.uk/turbo8-new.html
chuntington101 said:
If it's for a civic then there will probably be a kit already out there. Is it a TTS kit? If so I'm sure they did an intercooler version. I think it was a vertical flow core.
TTS do an intercooler/rad combo which looks very nice. I expect it's a lot of money and looks like it deletes the aircon which I don't really want to do.I think I'll have to get a slimline one to sit behind the bumper and get a local company to make up the pipe work.
eliot said:
227bhp said:
You can't really state 'the best' as it's not that simple. Water cooled makes for a much more responsive engine for instance.
What is 'HSV section'?
The internet may say that the short intake v the long pipework for intercooler makes it more responsive - i've done both and couldn't tell any difference, apart from cooler inlet temps that stay cool with air.What is 'HSV section'?
The problem with air to water is that you have two sets of inefficiencys (air>water>air), wheres air to air is only one.
Thread on interchillers along with my sceptical (wrong) opinion:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=153...
My messing around with chargecoolers:
http://www.mez.co.uk/turbo8-new.html
I am speaking from experience, not something I read on the internet though and it looks like your system didn't have a big enough rad, probably not enough volume of water in it and maybe the core was restrictive.
Long straight pipes don't represent much of a flow loss, bends and restrictive cooler cores do though.
Water accepts heat very easily, it does not however lose it very quickly or well.
I set one up using a PWR barrel, the throttle response was instantly better, I monitored everything water in, water out, air in/air out. It became apparent that after a few minutes of hard use the intake temps went up, you could feel the engine was down on power. I think my system had (maybe) an airlock problem, but moreover it didn't have enough volume of water and my rad wasn't big enough, like you I used a bike rad; big mistake.
I felt at the time the barrel cooler wasn't transferring the heat to the water, but now I'm not so sure, I got fed up and ditched it all anyhow.
On reflection (many years on) with a different car If I was to do it again I would:
Put a large modern car rad on the front.
Consider putting an LPG tank in the spare wheel well and use it as a reservoir. It is increased weight, but at the rear less of a problem. It doesn't have to be full.
Use a much more powerful pump (more LPH) than the usual weedy Bosch item.
I think this would make quite an efficient system, the amount of water in the tank could be changed to suit well, whatever you wanted. Haven't found the time and effort required yet though as I still have doubts, but it was definitely a much more responsive engine with the CC fitted.
Edited by 227bhp on Sunday 29th May 09:02
Maybe you didn't read all my pages as i think the links are broken (use the java menu at the top) as i tested and datalogged everything, expermented with large reservoirs and decent pumps that are as fast as a garden hose, big front rads, hoses and all sorts.
It worked, but air to air worked better.
My advice remains the same - if you can fit a/a then you should do so.
It worked, but air to air worked better.
My advice remains the same - if you can fit a/a then you should do so.
Edited by eliot on Sunday 29th May 01:04
Edited by eliot on Sunday 29th May 01:06
eliot said:
Maybe you didn't read all my pages as i think the links are broken (use the java menu at the top) as i tested and datalogged everything, expermented with large reservoirs and decent pumps that are as fast as a garden hose, big front rads, hoses and all sorts.
It worked, but air to air worked better.
My advice remains the same - if you can fit a/a then you should do so.
Yes I've found it now, I still think it's worth revisiting with fresh ideas though. From what I can gather your pump was 25lph and you pointed out it wasn't powerful enough to pump the extra water in the pic above, seems you tried everything, but never a better pump.It worked, but air to air worked better.
My advice remains the same - if you can fit a/a then you should do so.
Edited by eliot on Sunday 29th May 01:04
Edited by eliot on Sunday 29th May 01:06
If you use one designed for a car engine you could go to 250lph, I wonder what that would bring to the party. My only reservation is to how it would react being necked down to 19mm hose as the usually run 32 - 36mm.
Edited by 227bhp on Sunday 29th May 10:29
chuntington101 said:
What do the thebo guys use? There has to be an off the shelf intercooler that will fit! Then it's just sorting the pipework.
There are some off the shelf kits, but they mean you have to remove the AC/ the front crossmember which I'd rather not do.Mishimoto do a nice neat slimline one which would fit in the lower section of my bumper which looks like it may be the way forward.
I have also now messed around with charge coolers for a while. mid engined car makes thing harder. Same Rotrex C30-94.
Still, to make a charge cooler at your power level work really well for more than few seconds, so Autobahn or track work, you need some 32mm or bigger water lines, engine sized pre-radiators with very good air flow and very powerful water pumps to get you to flowrates above some 50l per minute.
This will all get pretty expensive. If there is a commercial of the shelf air to air solution, I'd fit it.
Folks have good success on the street or drag strip by just fitting a charge cooler system with a high water volume. They live of the heat capacity of their system, not on the ability to dissipate the heat as fast as it is generated through the pre-radiator. Good for a few seconds of WOT, but no good hammering down the Kemmel straight uphill in Spa for a km.
I am also considering going back to a simple a-2-a cooler as even with low airflow you get decent performance on par with a suboptimal charge cooler set-up.
i have read the website with the off road vehicle years ago and found similar issues. I improved my set-up bit by bit, but I am still disappointed.
Front engined Civic -> go air to air.
Still, to make a charge cooler at your power level work really well for more than few seconds, so Autobahn or track work, you need some 32mm or bigger water lines, engine sized pre-radiators with very good air flow and very powerful water pumps to get you to flowrates above some 50l per minute.
This will all get pretty expensive. If there is a commercial of the shelf air to air solution, I'd fit it.
Folks have good success on the street or drag strip by just fitting a charge cooler system with a high water volume. They live of the heat capacity of their system, not on the ability to dissipate the heat as fast as it is generated through the pre-radiator. Good for a few seconds of WOT, but no good hammering down the Kemmel straight uphill in Spa for a km.
I am also considering going back to a simple a-2-a cooler as even with low airflow you get decent performance on par with a suboptimal charge cooler set-up.
i have read the website with the off road vehicle years ago and found similar issues. I improved my set-up bit by bit, but I am still disappointed.
Front engined Civic -> go air to air.
As indicted above, it as much depends on how the car will be used as the packaging possibilities... I use a Frozen Boost charge-cooler on a RV8 engine TVR with a big single turbo as it would go under the bonnet and kept the inlet tract very short (much much shorter than an A/A matrix in the nose would have necessitated). The charge-cooler has a dedicated PWR rad in the nose (as big as I could get in).
It's proven to be very effective and stable on road and at the boost levels I'm using with little soak occurring but would undoubtedly run warmer on track - I certainly wouldn't discount water cooled but be realistic about what you're wanting to mitigate. I guess the Rotrex may ask more of any solution just by dint of the fact it is compressing regardless of load, whereas turbos are load dependent.
It's proven to be very effective and stable on road and at the boost levels I'm using with little soak occurring but would undoubtedly run warmer on track - I certainly wouldn't discount water cooled but be realistic about what you're wanting to mitigate. I guess the Rotrex may ask more of any solution just by dint of the fact it is compressing regardless of load, whereas turbos are load dependent.
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