Charge cooler or intercooler? Which would suit?
Discussion
Ive said:
thing is that his car is mid engined. I am unsure i would like to have 6-8 meters of boost pipes and to also actually route them through the car.
How did they do it on the other turbo versions (911 etc)? I know they have a much wider back end probably down to putting them at either side, any ideas to be had there?Escy said:
The 2 air-con condensers have a reasonably large surface area, it's the diameter of the pipes that concern me which is why I plan to split the flow so each one does half of the cooling rather than run them in series. The interchiller idea is intresting but I no longer have the air-con compressor.
Also, i'd be looking through radiator catalogues at items for small cars like Micras, Smart cars etc. You may find a pair to fit, but it's not going to do wonders for the cars balance....jontysafe said:
I've spent literally blooming ages looking at all options and to my mind you can't beat a simple air to air intercooler. This is my recent addition 
To be fair though this has meant relocation the rad.
If I were in your position I would run two intercoolers, like the old Renault 21 turbo, where the air con rads were.
Or you may just get away with one. Get a Garrett bar and plate core.
That does look very effective though, where are the rads going to go?To be fair though this has meant relocation the rad.
If I were in your position I would run two intercoolers, like the old Renault 21 turbo, where the air con rads were.
Or you may just get away with one. Get a Garrett bar and plate core.
227bhp said:
Also, i'd be looking through radiator catalogues at items for small cars like Micras, Smart cars etc. You may find a pair to fit, but it's not going to do wonders for the cars balance....
I've bought a pair of Polo radiators and classic mini radiators, neither fitted without me having to hack the standard ducting, i've looked at motor bike radiators, quad bike radiators, etc. I'm not going to beat the A/C condensers for surface area while retaining the factory ducting. This is why I feel I may as well give them a try. Like it was suggested, I could add some larger inlet/outlets to them. If they aren't up to it I'll get some custom radiators made. I've taken on board about the Bosch pump, i'll sack that off for something more powerful.
Escy said:
Ive said:
Just for reference...
Thanks for this post, i'll go for a better pump. Righto, your, money, your choice.......... ;-)
(hands up who can post a graph of charge cooling effectiveness (note not efficiency!) vs pump flow for a system under controlled (ie engine dyno) conditions? I can, can you??
Escy said:
227bhp said:
Also, i'd be looking through radiator catalogues at items for small cars like Micras, Smart cars etc. You may find a pair to fit, but it's not going to do wonders for the cars balance....
I've bought a pair of Polo radiators and classic mini radiators, neither fitted without me having to hack the standard ducting, i've looked at motor bike radiators, quad bike radiators, etc. I'm not going to beat the A/C condensers for surface area while retaining the factory ducting. This is why I feel I may as well give them a try. Like it was suggested, I could add some larger inlet/outlets to them. If they aren't up to it I'll get some custom radiators made. I've taken on board about the Bosch pump, i'll sack that off for something more powerful.
Then you won't have to buy/waste money. If you find one that you think may work you can make a mock up with cardboard first.
Personally I would consider a Meziere pump with the Craig David
controller, they do an advertised 55 gph.jontysafe said:
Rad is now rear mounted, I don't have a windscreen.
I think the intercooler would be even more efficient if it was bolt upright but we'll see when we get the engine in and on the dyno.
Plus more weight to the rear, with a trailing wind it'll keep your head warm in the pitlane too. I think the intercooler would be even more efficient if it was bolt upright but we'll see when we get the engine in and on the dyno.
The IC is good at that angle, they are more effective like that. F1 utilises it and I seem to remember someone (PWR IIRC) designed a core which had angled tubes.
Many OEMs have switched form the Bosch PCA to the way higher flowing, higher pressure capable, longer lasting (6000h MTTF) Pierburg CWA series. Mercedes, AMG, BMW (e.g. X5M, X6M, 550d), Audi, some Yanks.
The Bosch PCA is old technology. It was good at its time, but currently Bosch is not competitive regarding electric pumps vs. Pierburg despite the potential to develop something like this. I am sure they will catch up.
I have worked 9yrs in corporate-level R&D of a $150 Billion/a multinational company.. Not everything that can or could be developed is developed. Budgets, marketing, development plans. Sometimes one misses things and can only fast follow.
Happens all the time.
BMW 3-Series and 1-series use the even bigger CWA200 and CWA400 as main engine coolant pumps.
In my personal CC system, intake air temps dropped as I increased flow.
There are scenarios where the water flow is not the limiting factor, but more often than not it is. Next in line is pre radiator efficiency. I have listed the different scenarios in details in the previous post. No need to repeat here.
To the Posche owner:
I think having big 32mm barbs welded to those condensers may be a good starting point. Next would be full custom.
The Bosch PCA is old technology. It was good at its time, but currently Bosch is not competitive regarding electric pumps vs. Pierburg despite the potential to develop something like this. I am sure they will catch up.
I have worked 9yrs in corporate-level R&D of a $150 Billion/a multinational company.. Not everything that can or could be developed is developed. Budgets, marketing, development plans. Sometimes one misses things and can only fast follow.
Happens all the time.
BMW 3-Series and 1-series use the even bigger CWA200 and CWA400 as main engine coolant pumps.
In my personal CC system, intake air temps dropped as I increased flow.
There are scenarios where the water flow is not the limiting factor, but more often than not it is. Next in line is pre radiator efficiency. I have listed the different scenarios in details in the previous post. No need to repeat here.
To the Posche owner:
I think having big 32mm barbs welded to those condensers may be a good starting point. Next would be full custom.
Ive said:
Many OEMs have switched form the Bosch PCA to the way higher flowing, higher pressure capable, longer lasting (6000h MTTF) Pierburg CWA series. Mercedes, AMG, BMW (e.g. X5M, X6M, 550d), Audi, some Yanks.
The Bosch PCA is old technology. It was good at its time, but currently Bosch is not competitive regarding electric pumps vs. Pierburg despite the potential to develop something like this. I am sure they will catch up.
I have worked 9yrs in corporate-level R&D of a $150 Billion/a multinational company.. Not everything that can or could be developed is developed. Budgets, marketing, development plans. Sometimes one misses things and can only fast follow.
Happens all the time.
BMW 3-Series and 1-series use the even bigger CWA200 and CWA400 as main engine coolant pumps.
In my personal CC system, intake air temps dropped as I increased flow.
There are scenarios where the water flow is not the limiting factor, but more often than not it is. Next in line is pre radiator efficiency. I have listed the different scenarios in details in the previous post. No need to repeat here.
To the Posche owner:
I think having big 32mm barbs welded to those condensers may be a good starting point. Next would be full custom.
I've probably designed and developed something like 20 OEM and motorsport systems, so far, the LTR has always been the limiting factor (because ultimately you have to reject the heat to ambient, and the LTR has the lowest DeltaT across it)The Bosch PCA is old technology. It was good at its time, but currently Bosch is not competitive regarding electric pumps vs. Pierburg despite the potential to develop something like this. I am sure they will catch up.
I have worked 9yrs in corporate-level R&D of a $150 Billion/a multinational company.. Not everything that can or could be developed is developed. Budgets, marketing, development plans. Sometimes one misses things and can only fast follow.
Happens all the time.
BMW 3-Series and 1-series use the even bigger CWA200 and CWA400 as main engine coolant pumps.
In my personal CC system, intake air temps dropped as I increased flow.
There are scenarios where the water flow is not the limiting factor, but more often than not it is. Next in line is pre radiator efficiency. I have listed the different scenarios in details in the previous post. No need to repeat here.
To the Posche owner:
I think having big 32mm barbs welded to those condensers may be a good starting point. Next would be full custom.
Take a typical 550bhp engine chargecooling system i designed, at a heatflux of 60kW, effectiveness was dam nearly constant for between 7 and 25 l/min, when tested in the MIRA CWT, and only really fell right off below ~5l/min as flow turbulence fell in the system.
So i'll reiterate - Do the maths, work out the flow and sizing you need. It's all simple maths.
Or you, know, just guess like 99% of internet experts are doing........ ;-)
HappyMidget said:
Max_Torque said:
(hands up who can post a graph of charge cooling effectiveness (note not efficiency!) vs pump flow for a system under controlled (ie engine dyno) conditions? I can, can you??
Why are you such a cock? (insults are easy heh! Doesn't help the OP, or this thread though does it. If you want to learn, i'd suggest you try to listen more and insult less.)
Definitiv agree on the pre radiator being the most tricky bit to get right.
The two Elise implementations I have seen pictures of that work well had to redesign the entire crash box due to the pre radiatiors or low temp radiators as you call them. Probably the right term to use.
My car is not fully instrumented, so some guessing and relying on COTS parts is always required. :-)
The BMW X6M uses 2 CWA50 in series.
I am no internet expert, just a hobby wrencher that even sometimes measures stuff, puts the engine together, map myself, solve common issues, optimize, screw up, discuss and even learn something :-) and that all on a supercharged Rover K in a Elise. Not that many people I can ask over here.
I like a no BS attitude, but I also like friendliness online.
I see you regularly provide very good advice over here. So thanks for that :-)
The two Elise implementations I have seen pictures of that work well had to redesign the entire crash box due to the pre radiatiors or low temp radiators as you call them. Probably the right term to use.
My car is not fully instrumented, so some guessing and relying on COTS parts is always required. :-)
The BMW X6M uses 2 CWA50 in series.
I am no internet expert, just a hobby wrencher that even sometimes measures stuff, puts the engine together, map myself, solve common issues, optimize, screw up, discuss and even learn something :-) and that all on a supercharged Rover K in a Elise. Not that many people I can ask over here.
I like a no BS attitude, but I also like friendliness online.
I see you regularly provide very good advice over here. So thanks for that :-)
Edited by Ive on Tuesday 14th June 18:31
Ive said:
Definitiv agree on the pre radiator being the most tricky bit to get right.
The two Elise implementations I have seen pictures of that work well had to redesign the entire crash box due to the pre radiatiors or low temp radiators as you call them. Probably the right term to use.
My car is not fully instrumented, so some guessing and relying on COTS parts is always required. :-)
The BMW X6M uses 2 CWA50 in series.
I am no internet expert, just a hobby wrencher that even sometimes measures stuff, puts the engine together, map myself, solve common issues, optimize, screw up, discuss and even learn something :-) and that all on a supercharged Rover K in a Elise. Not that many people I can ask over here.
I like a no BS attitude, but I also like friendliness online.
I see you regularly provide very good advice over here. So thanks for that :-)
Can you decipher that:The two Elise implementations I have seen pictures of that work well had to redesign the entire crash box due to the pre radiatiors or low temp radiators as you call them. Probably the right term to use.
My car is not fully instrumented, so some guessing and relying on COTS parts is always required. :-)
The BMW X6M uses 2 CWA50 in series.
I am no internet expert, just a hobby wrencher that even sometimes measures stuff, puts the engine together, map myself, solve common issues, optimize, screw up, discuss and even learn something :-) and that all on a supercharged Rover K in a Elise. Not that many people I can ask over here.
I like a no BS attitude, but I also like friendliness online.
I see you regularly provide very good advice over here. So thanks for that :-)
Edited by Ive on Tuesday 14th June 18:31
Max_Torque said:
227bhp said:
The basics are:
Shift a lot of water, very quickly
er, nope.Shift a lot of water, very quickly
Do the maths, and get back to me!
(hint: compare Cp for water and air, then consider the effect of residency time in both the PHE and LTR)
I think it means slow through the CC core, but fast through the rad?
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