BMW E91 330i Suspension, Alignment & tyre shredding - HELP!
Discussion
Hi All,
I’m after a bit of advice please.
I fairly recently bought a late 2005 BMW E91, 330i M Sport. It had a 181k on the clock when I got it, and has 183k on it now. It has a full BMW service history, and a load of other bits and pieces, but no paperwork to back it up particularly. To note though, it does have a Bird B3 Bilstein suspension kit on it.
Anyway the back story, when I test drove it etc. I hadn’t driven a bmw with the birds kit on it before, and the body felt a bit wobbly over certain bumps and did the BMW shimmy thing at the back end, but was assured it was all ok – and I ended up buying it as I did seem to drive alright overall. After a while and thinking “nah, this isn’t right” and then noticing that the fairly full treaded continental tyres on them were a bit shredded, the huge amount of rear toe on the rear wheels was then noticed. Also the roads locally to me are a bit bumpier than the test drive route I did, and it’s really unsettled over bumps. So a full alignment later on a hunter jig on 05-10-2016 @ 182,726 miles (even though I had a printout of an alignment done about only 2.5k miles previous to this @180,234 on 21-05-2016, so I’d discounted an alignment issue) – well, the car then still handled like a dog because the rear tyres were all stepped due to the previous rear toe in! As one of the rear wheels had a crack in it I discovered when I took them off (18” MV3’s), I sourced a set of second hand wheels (17” bmw style 188s) off the e90post forum with some Michelin Pilot Sports on them – unfortunately when I picked them up, I was quite tired and didn’t notice that the front tyres had a strange wear pattern on them. So after fitting this new set of wheels with new tyres, the car wandered all about the place from the front as these were shot!
Anyway, after then buying a set of new front tyres (pilot sport 4’s) and the pilot sport 2’s on the back, all 4 tyres were good with decent tread on them – the car was a lot better handling, but I think the subframe bushings need changing after reading up on “the bmw shimmy” on the internet and it was still doing this – and it still didn’t feel right.
Basically the back end tramlines a lot and shimmy’s about, like the back of the car isn’t connected to the wheels…so I guess subframe bushings?
Now the crux of this story is – last weekend (11-11-2016 @ 183029) I had an MOT done, and the car passed with no advisories. I then drove to Wales this weekend (circa 250 miles) and when it started raining on the M4, to be honest the car was a bit scary to drive, and I had to take it really gently – the tramlines caused by the trucks on the inside lane were murderous. Driving back home, I only made it about 50 miles or so, and I pulled into the motorway services to have a pee stop, I took a cursory glance at the rear tyres – and saw that the tyres were down to their canvas on the inside edge…and well past the steel bead too. Cue a lot of phone calls later and I ended up forcing my Dad to drive out 200+ miles with my front wheels from the 18” MV3’s that I still had so I could limp the car home…. Not fun for anyone involved – but it was Sunday and nothing was open and I couldn’t get hold of any recover that day – you would not believe how grateful I was! That said, it was lucky I checked my tyres to be honest, that could have been nasty if I’d carried on driving unaware that my tyres were utterly shredded as if I’d done a drift day… They’ve basically gone from a set of full depth tread tyres to totally shredded in 718 miles (when I swapped tyres at the motorway services).
Now extreme tyre wear like that seems a bit more than just subframe bushings? I’ve had a recent alignment too, and the guys didn’t feel anything loose – although it is all under tension so I guess it’s difficult to tell. The car looked like it was aligned properly – they even loaded it full of water and everything to get the correct preload. I guess I should mention it’s running the staggered wheel setup – 225 wide fronts, 255 wide rears.
Help please!
I can also post photos and copies of the printouts from the alignments if that helps.
Cheers
I’m after a bit of advice please.
I fairly recently bought a late 2005 BMW E91, 330i M Sport. It had a 181k on the clock when I got it, and has 183k on it now. It has a full BMW service history, and a load of other bits and pieces, but no paperwork to back it up particularly. To note though, it does have a Bird B3 Bilstein suspension kit on it.
Anyway the back story, when I test drove it etc. I hadn’t driven a bmw with the birds kit on it before, and the body felt a bit wobbly over certain bumps and did the BMW shimmy thing at the back end, but was assured it was all ok – and I ended up buying it as I did seem to drive alright overall. After a while and thinking “nah, this isn’t right” and then noticing that the fairly full treaded continental tyres on them were a bit shredded, the huge amount of rear toe on the rear wheels was then noticed. Also the roads locally to me are a bit bumpier than the test drive route I did, and it’s really unsettled over bumps. So a full alignment later on a hunter jig on 05-10-2016 @ 182,726 miles (even though I had a printout of an alignment done about only 2.5k miles previous to this @180,234 on 21-05-2016, so I’d discounted an alignment issue) – well, the car then still handled like a dog because the rear tyres were all stepped due to the previous rear toe in! As one of the rear wheels had a crack in it I discovered when I took them off (18” MV3’s), I sourced a set of second hand wheels (17” bmw style 188s) off the e90post forum with some Michelin Pilot Sports on them – unfortunately when I picked them up, I was quite tired and didn’t notice that the front tyres had a strange wear pattern on them. So after fitting this new set of wheels with new tyres, the car wandered all about the place from the front as these were shot!
Anyway, after then buying a set of new front tyres (pilot sport 4’s) and the pilot sport 2’s on the back, all 4 tyres were good with decent tread on them – the car was a lot better handling, but I think the subframe bushings need changing after reading up on “the bmw shimmy” on the internet and it was still doing this – and it still didn’t feel right.
Basically the back end tramlines a lot and shimmy’s about, like the back of the car isn’t connected to the wheels…so I guess subframe bushings?
Now the crux of this story is – last weekend (11-11-2016 @ 183029) I had an MOT done, and the car passed with no advisories. I then drove to Wales this weekend (circa 250 miles) and when it started raining on the M4, to be honest the car was a bit scary to drive, and I had to take it really gently – the tramlines caused by the trucks on the inside lane were murderous. Driving back home, I only made it about 50 miles or so, and I pulled into the motorway services to have a pee stop, I took a cursory glance at the rear tyres – and saw that the tyres were down to their canvas on the inside edge…and well past the steel bead too. Cue a lot of phone calls later and I ended up forcing my Dad to drive out 200+ miles with my front wheels from the 18” MV3’s that I still had so I could limp the car home…. Not fun for anyone involved – but it was Sunday and nothing was open and I couldn’t get hold of any recover that day – you would not believe how grateful I was! That said, it was lucky I checked my tyres to be honest, that could have been nasty if I’d carried on driving unaware that my tyres were utterly shredded as if I’d done a drift day… They’ve basically gone from a set of full depth tread tyres to totally shredded in 718 miles (when I swapped tyres at the motorway services).
Now extreme tyre wear like that seems a bit more than just subframe bushings? I’ve had a recent alignment too, and the guys didn’t feel anything loose – although it is all under tension so I guess it’s difficult to tell. The car looked like it was aligned properly – they even loaded it full of water and everything to get the correct preload. I guess I should mention it’s running the staggered wheel setup – 225 wide fronts, 255 wide rears.
Help please!
I can also post photos and copies of the printouts from the alignments if that helps.
Cheers
Two thoughts:
The wheel geometries during the geometry check may not be what you're actually running on the road. It's entirely possible the suspension is flexing under load due to worn/loose mounts and giving you weird geometry.
I don't know what that car is worth at that mileage but make sure you aren't throwing good money after bad - you've already sunk a lot of money into those tyres and that'll continue until you sort the problem, and we have no idea how long that will take.
The wheel geometries during the geometry check may not be what you're actually running on the road. It's entirely possible the suspension is flexing under load due to worn/loose mounts and giving you weird geometry.
I don't know what that car is worth at that mileage but make sure you aren't throwing good money after bad - you've already sunk a lot of money into those tyres and that'll continue until you sort the problem, and we have no idea how long that will take.
Thankyou mr Green. Yes, definitely not going to just fit new tyres - need to work out the problem first.
If the static settings are all ok according to the geo check, like you say, it must be doing something when on the road under load. More investigation required.
Tyre photos:
lucky I checked really!
If the static settings are all ok according to the geo check, like you say, it must be doing something when on the road under load. More investigation required.
Tyre photos:
lucky I checked really!
To wreck the tyres that quickly it's most likely the toe is way out. As said, it might not show up when they tracked the car but if the bushes are knackered the wheels will be moving all over when subject to loads from braking/accelerating/cornering.
If you decide to upgrade in the process of fixing it, you can get M3 bits fairly cheaply from here: https://spareto.co.uk/cart
I remember changing the trailing arm bushes on my old E46 at around 150k miles and it made it feel like a new car.
If you decide to upgrade in the process of fixing it, you can get M3 bits fairly cheaply from here: https://spareto.co.uk/cart
I remember changing the trailing arm bushes on my old E46 at around 150k miles and it made it feel like a new car.
Thanks for the link sixpistons - that's a handy one for parts. 
I'll do a fuller update later, but in essence, after some buggering about with camera suction cupped to car, a bit of "testing" and measuring stuff. Well yes - I have some rather excessive toe compliance (and some static camber of about 4.5 degrees roughly measured with string...which it wasn't after being aligned because that's easy to spot by eye).
So I don't miss anything, and given the number of miles the car has - but with a relatively young Birds B3 kit on it, I've decided I'm rebuilding the whole rear end. Whole set of Lemforder arms purchased from ECP with that blackfriday code, and just about to send some money to BMW for all new fastenings / eccentric washers and remaining bushings left on the rear axle. Whilst I'm there, new track rod ends on the front as one is seized - and there's no way I'm rebuilding the rear suspension to then not be able to get it aligned to have the steering wheel point straight! Oh, and I'll see to the surface rust on the subframe too whilst it's "easy" access.
With all that, and another set of tyres (vredestein ultrac sessanta as another set of Michelin Pilot Sports in 255 flavour are just eyewateringly expensive), it's been a rather expensive exercise! Glad I own a socket set to make the labour side of things somewhat cheaper.
I'll do a fuller update later, but in essence, after some buggering about with camera suction cupped to car, a bit of "testing" and measuring stuff. Well yes - I have some rather excessive toe compliance (and some static camber of about 4.5 degrees roughly measured with string...which it wasn't after being aligned because that's easy to spot by eye).
So I don't miss anything, and given the number of miles the car has - but with a relatively young Birds B3 kit on it, I've decided I'm rebuilding the whole rear end. Whole set of Lemforder arms purchased from ECP with that blackfriday code, and just about to send some money to BMW for all new fastenings / eccentric washers and remaining bushings left on the rear axle. Whilst I'm there, new track rod ends on the front as one is seized - and there's no way I'm rebuilding the rear suspension to then not be able to get it aligned to have the steering wheel point straight! Oh, and I'll see to the surface rust on the subframe too whilst it's "easy" access.
With all that, and another set of tyres (vredestein ultrac sessanta as another set of Michelin Pilot Sports in 255 flavour are just eyewateringly expensive), it's been a rather expensive exercise! Glad I own a socket set to make the labour side of things somewhat cheaper.
helix402 said:
Front camber is also adjustable if the top mount pins are removed.
There's a chance that this may have already happened (I'll have to have a closer look) as my alignment guy was able to adjust it and said he had bought the tools especially (?). 
I've also bought new Lemforder front track rods, as there's no way I'm going to rebuild the whole rear axle and then not be able to get it aligned straight!
As a bit of a kindof update.
I chopped through the worn tyre...
Chopped by Chris Reeves, on Flickr
And then took a couple of measurements :-X
montage-tyres by Chris Reeves, on Flickr
So fat bit like 13.4mm, and shredded inside edge is like 5.3mm.
Assuming the fat bit is pretty much full tread and how the tyre started on the car, that's 8.1mm of tyre worn out in 718miles, which is >1.1mm of tyre per 100miles
I chopped through the worn tyre...
Chopped by Chris Reeves, on Flickr
And then took a couple of measurements :-X
montage-tyres by Chris Reeves, on Flickr
So fat bit like 13.4mm, and shredded inside edge is like 5.3mm.
Assuming the fat bit is pretty much full tread and how the tyre started on the car, that's 8.1mm of tyre worn out in 718miles, which is >1.1mm of tyre per 100miles
So to give the thread some closure, I'll update as to how the problem has been resolved.
Here's the rear suspension diagram for reference:
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/showparts?id=VS32-...
As you know, I purchased all the upper arms (Lemforder OEM), item numbers 14, 18 and 19. I also purchased all new fixing hardware from BMW and the bushings for the lower control arm and semi-trailing arm. Over the Christmas / New Years break, I set about replacing these - it all started well being able to undo all the bolts without resorting to the windy gun.
E91-Bu-01 by Chris Reeves, on Flickr
I took the opportunity to give everything a proper clean.
E91-Bu-02 by Chris Reeves, on Flickr
And to treat the minor surface rust on the subframe.
E91-Bu-03 by Chris Reeves, on Flickr
Then obviously the bushings were a bit of a pain to remove, but a combination of brute force, holesaw, a new sabre saw, an air hammer and some swearing got the bushings out. Well, I ignored the trailing arm bushings for now as they actually seemed alright - and it's bloody cold and misty working on the car this time of year....that can wait till it's warmer!
So all upper arms replaced, and bushings in the lower control arm replaced - in the end with Powerflex items because I just didn't have the right kit to install the OEM ones.
E91-Bu-04 by Chris Reeves, on Flickr
So, the cause of the problem... well this lot have been removed from the car:
E91-Bu-06 by Chris Reeves, on Flickr
All the bushings were cracked on the aftermarket items, and the guide rod (no.19) looks almost original! The subframe to lower control arm bushings weren't too bad - but you can see how medieval I got removing them!
Now, interestingly, the ball joint for the lower control arm / hub (no. 3) was a polybush - upon removing this as it was completely knackered. It appeared to be a "Rear Upper Lateral Arm to Chassis bush" and looked like one of these:
https://www.powerflex.co.uk/road-series/product-de...
Looking at the diagram of what powerflex bushings go where, I should have a "Rear Lower lateral arm to hub bush", which looks like this:
https://www.powerflex.co.uk/road-series/product-de...
They do slightly different jobs.
And here's a closer up picture of what the correct bushing should look like, next to the knackered incorrect one:
E91-Bu-05 by Chris Reeves, on Flickr
I have a strong suspicion that this may well be the root cause of the interesting handling and tyre wear characteristics - and why the car had reverted to a ridiculous camber angle.
After fitting everything, I popped down to my local indy with a hunter alignment rig and got everything aligned right, then went out and did 180mile+ journey from Essex to the Peak District for the New Year - the car has never felt better!
When I got back, Hilda (I've named the car) was filthy and treated to a quick 2 bucket wash.
E91-Bu-cleaned by Chris Reeves, on Flickr
Happy bunny now
Good to know it has got resolved. It looks like a job well done. I have always been skeptical of PowerFlex stuff myself for some applications with the rear balljoint being one of them.
Fair play for sorting the issue out. I think the problem is that not many people in the trade have the ability to get to the heart of the problem.
Out of curiousity did you buy this off a bloke called Matt?
Fair play for sorting the issue out. I think the problem is that not many people in the trade have the ability to get to the heart of the problem.
Out of curiousity did you buy this off a bloke called Matt?
Edited by SebringMan on Friday 13th January 09:40
SebringMan said:
Good to know it has got resolved. It looks like a job well done. I have always been skeptical of PowerFlex stuff myself for some applications with the rear balljoint being one of them.
I'm inclined to agree, but I was forced into getting powerflex stuff to replace as I was really struggling to get the OEM stuff pressed in. My thought pattern was that I could get the powerflex stuff out more easily and get some more tools to go back to OEM in the future if required - and the powerflex bits seemed sensible in this case, so I went with it.SebringMan said:
Out of curiousity did you buy this off a bloke called Matt?
I did as a matter of fact - in Warwickshire direction.Gassing Station | Suspension, Brakes & Tyres | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff