Main bearing wear..

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Discussion

Jhonno

Original Poster:

5,793 posts

142 months

Friday 10th February 2017
quotequote all
PeterBurgess said:
The vibration can travel along the crank so doesn't always come from nearest rotating item. I bet a crank whips line one-oh if it could be filmed in slo mo.
Peter
True!

Jhonno

Original Poster:

5,793 posts

142 months

Friday 10th February 2017
quotequote all
99hjhm said:
What engine and use?
Flat plane V8, and "fast road"..

Jhonno

Original Poster:

5,793 posts

142 months

Friday 10th February 2017
quotequote all
Mignon said:
Some interesting answers smile

First off, please post a pic of the other bearing half in that journal.

Edited by Mignon on Friday 10th February 21:32
I shall get some more pics tomorrow..

PeterBurgess

775 posts

147 months

Friday 10th February 2017
quotequote all
Flat plane cranks were notorious for shaking the engines to bits in the comp SD1 engines! We have worked over a year or two with TN Racing who use their own flat plane cranks http://tn-racing.com/
Bearing cap movement on the V8s can also evidence the problem you show. We had a coupl of guys in the unit explaining how, when they worked at Perkins, BMW paid for research to turn the old SD1 into a diesel, the engines were so flexible it was unbelievable! The two guys developed the cross bolted mains in 3.5 blocks which Rover later used in the bigger engines.
One of our customers, Mick Richards, fabricated a girdle to fit between the sump and block to help reduce flexing in his early 90s championship dominating TR8.

Peter

Boosted LS1

21,189 posts

261 months

Friday 10th February 2017
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Peter, did they use flat plane rv8 cranks?

PeterBurgess

775 posts

147 months

Friday 10th February 2017
quotequote all
I believe TN had a crank designed from scratch, it actually weighed more than the OE one so it could be in balance harmonically.
Peter

Jhonno

Original Poster:

5,793 posts

142 months

Friday 10th February 2017
quotequote all
Interesting.. So is balancing a flat plane crank the same as a normal crank then? Or are there other considerations?

Boosted LS1

21,189 posts

261 months

Saturday 11th February 2017
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OP, what state is the harmonic balancer in? Does the upper shell show more or less wear then the lower?

Jhonno

Original Poster:

5,793 posts

142 months

Saturday 11th February 2017
quotequote all
Upper shell.. Shows normal wear.

https://goo.gl/photos/LR5VFUoBMdgpBAUDA

No balancer.

Jhonno

Original Poster:

5,793 posts

142 months

Saturday 11th February 2017
quotequote all

Mignon

1,018 posts

90 months

Saturday 11th February 2017
quotequote all
Jhonno said:
Upper shell.. Shows normal wear.

https://goo.gl/photos/LR5VFUoBMdgpBAUDA

No balancer.
Excellent. Thank you for that. The smiley in my post above was meant to gently indicate my opinion of the comments so far in this thread. However my own surmise for the actual reason for the wear pattern in the cap side of the bearing could only be verified by a photo of the shell in the block which I expected to show normal wear. So now let's get into it.

In a normal shell bearing the wear pattern should be concentrated mainly in the centre of the U, extending to about 2/3 of the length of the shell and diminishing or disappearing towards the split line of the shell. The reason for this is simple. Most of the forces on the crank from the pistons act in the up and down plane rather than side to side so near the split line of the cap and shells there should not be much contact. When there is contact near the split line then it is generally because the shell has been pinched in laterally by dirt or burrs under the shell or some distortion in the housing.

However your shell only showed wear on one side. It is absurd to suggest this could be caused by vibrations, crank balancers or anything similar. For that to be the case the crank would have to bend significantly right within the 1 inch width of a single journal which is solid metal. It is preposterous. You could take a 1 inch length of solid steel or iron 2 or more inches in diameter and not be able to bend it one iota with the forces acting inside an engine.

So the problem had to be in that specific cap or the vanishingly unlikely case that the crank journal had been ground bigger on one side than the other.

The answer is therefore simple. The shell was pinched in a bit at the split line just on one side by a burr or dirt right at the edge of the worn side leading to most of the contact being on that side of the shell and also accounting for why the contact extended up to the split line.


Jhonno

Original Poster:

5,793 posts

142 months

Saturday 11th February 2017
quotequote all

Jhonno

Original Poster:

5,793 posts

142 months

Saturday 11th February 2017
quotequote all
Mignon said:
Jhonno said:
Upper shell.. Shows normal wear.

https://goo.gl/photos/LR5VFUoBMdgpBAUDA

No balancer.
Excellent. Thank you for that. The smiley in my post above was meant to gently indicate my opinion of the comments so far in this thread. However my own surmise for the actual reason for the wear pattern in the cap side of the bearing could only be verified by a photo of the shell in the block which I expected to show normal wear. So now let's get into it.

In a normal shell bearing the wear pattern should be concentrated mainly in the centre of the U, extending to about 2/3 of the length of the shell and diminishing or disappearing towards the split line of the shell. The reason for this is simple. Most of the forces on the crank from the pistons act in the up and down plane rather than side to side so near the split line of the cap and shells there should not be much contact. When there is contact near the split line then it is generally because the shell has been pinched in laterally by dirt or burrs under the shell or some distortion in the housing.

However your shell only showed wear on one side. It is absurd to suggest this could be caused by vibrations, crank balancers or anything similar. For that to be the case the crank would have to bend significantly right within the 1 inch width of a single journal which is solid metal. It is preposterous. You could take a 1 inch length of solid steel or iron 2 or more inches in diameter and not be able to bend it one iota with the forces acting inside an engine.

So the problem had to be in that specific cap or the vanishingly unlikely case that the crank journal had been ground bigger on one side than the other.

The answer is therefore simple. The shell was pinched in a bit at the split line just on one side by a burr or dirt right at the edge of the worn side leading to most of the contact being on that side of the shell and also accounting for why the contact extended up to the split line.
Interesting! Thank you for your detailed response! 🙂 I will worry a bit less now. It would seem that might be what has happened with the rear shell also.. In fact you can see a spot in the shell, which I believe would suggest that was where the dirt was.

PeterBurgess

775 posts

147 months

Saturday 11th February 2017
quotequote all
Ollie from TN Racing tells me..... main thing with flat plane V8 is the second order vibration that you cannot get rid of without a balance shaft. The key is ensuring that the counterweights of the crank are matched perfectly to the piston and rod weights. Ours is within a couple of grams and we don't get the bolts trying to undo themselves like others experience.

Peter

Jhonno

Original Poster:

5,793 posts

142 months

Saturday 11th February 2017
quotequote all
Thanks.. Something to watch out for.

PeterBurgess

775 posts

147 months

Saturday 11th February 2017
quotequote all
We have had good results, especially on V8s with Rattler pullies.
http://vibrationfree.co.uk/sterling-rattler/shop-2...
Peter

Boosted LS1

21,189 posts

261 months

Saturday 11th February 2017
quotequote all
Mignon said:
Jhonno said:
Upper shell.. Shows normal wear.

https://goo.gl/photos/LR5VFUoBMdgpBAUDA

No balancer.
The answer is therefore simple. The shell was pinched in a bit at the split line just on one side by a burr or dirt right at the edge of the worn side leading to most of the contact being on that side of the shell and also accounting for why the contact extended up to the split line.
Valid point but why is there even wear on both pinch surfaces? The shell won't have moved across the cap. I think there is more to this Sherlock ;-) ?

Jhonno

Original Poster:

5,793 posts

142 months

Saturday 11th February 2017
quotequote all
Boosted LS1 said:
Valid point but why is there even wear on both pinch surfaces? The shell won't have moved across the cap. I think there is more to this Sherlock ;-) ?
Such as?

Both end mains were showing odd wear on the lower bearing only.

Jhonno

Original Poster:

5,793 posts

142 months

Saturday 11th February 2017
quotequote all
PeterBurgess said:
We have had good results, especially on V8s with Rattler pullies.
http://vibrationfree.co.uk/sterling-rattler/shop-2...
Peter
Thank you for that link! Interesting company I shall look into..

Jhonno

Original Poster:

5,793 posts

142 months

Saturday 11th February 2017
quotequote all
All block side big end bearings..

https://goo.gl/photos/HDTvhppLCCzSgFtJ7