My name is peter Burgess and I am a tuning junky
Discussion
Wouldn't it be nice if we could have a non confrontational thread? Here goes, maybe?
In the ideal World Dave would still be my mate and lap up all the power figures I get especially the coastdown variations we record and incorporate the data into his hard earned engine performance software. I would log down all the variations so Dave and Stan could use the figures, but I don't as it would be time consuming. Dave and I used to spend hours messing about on the rollers and flow bench and generally talking rubbish as us power junkies do
My credentials;I have an excellent track record for producing championship winning heads, engines and cars since 1987 and I am still improving the power outputs of our work as we have to keep up or better the opposition so our stuff can keep winning, which it does.
Here we go, Dyno Anonymous.... I am Peter Burgess and I do dynoing.
I have owned and operated a rolling road dyno since 1987.
First dyno Clayton water brake. Power figures varied depending if I loaded down from revs, different fast to steady load. readings would vary if I did fast unloads to slow unloads. I tried to keep things (including same operator for same car) as constant as I could. Dial out put gauges so we had to write down all the figures. Lots of seat of the pants stuff.
2010 and I invested in a Dynocom twin roller (actually quad roller centre split so runs more bearing than the Clayton so less harmonic vibration from length of rollers) this cost £26000 at the time, the 'now' price is horrendous with the plunging pound. I chose twin rollers from habit and personal prefernce incase of problems. In 30 years I have had a few engines go, dip clucth fast, a few boxes and diffs go (pray). Inertia of rollers propels vehicle backwards out of the rollers. I have had one wheel fall off and luckily the diff rested on the centre, non roller part of the dynocom so no damage to the rollers. I have had one instantaneous tyre blow out, car went wobbly and I thought tie down straps had let go, but, as the tyre went the starps went slack as they were not working against the tyre. I was thankful for the twin rollers and wonder what would have been the effect of the blow out on a single roller.
The Dynocom has inertia rollers and a pau on the front (rear if I put car in opposite way). The dyno was comissioned and built for us, not an off the shelf item. It was explained to me that inertia testing is the most repeatable way of tuning on the rollers and that the eddy brake pau can and does vary its ability to absorb power depending on pau temp as the gap between the electromagnets and the vented rotors will change and this affects the calibration of the strain gauge so, whenever possible run in inertia mode.
My mission...get best performance and or economy from vehicle on rollers.
The way I use the dyno....
Put car on rollers and line it up, strap it down ( not so it doesn't fly out of the rollers, if the car ever climbed out it doesn't go far as the car has no momentum) to make sure contact is maintained front and rear rollers as the software uses the inertia of both rollers for the power readings. It does no climb out of the front roler with the pau like the old Clayton one did as it is not holding the load. If we hold the load for mapping/ pinking testing it does try and climb out but contact with rear roller is not vital as long as we hold the load speed.
Put info into laptop, decide what rpm to record from. For road cars this is usually 2000 rpm. I then run the car on the rollers, check what mph is at 2000 rpm direct drive gear, usually 4th on 5 speed box. I warm the car and rollers up and steadily build up speed and throttle openings. I then watch max power on the laptop, after about ten runs when the car is first on the rollers I get a consisyent max bhp figure. At this point I start the recording from whatever mph is 2000 rpm. I finish the run by pressing the stop record button and then lifting off. Lift off before pressing stop record and get weird readings imo. I then do a run from below 2000 rpm as it is ob vious engines do not start producing power only from that rpm, this gives us a more realistic reading. I start the runs from the same lower rpm everytime or I get a different power curve below say 2500 rpm and I want consistency.
I trhen check the fuel curve, throttle openings etc etc then do another run, but, I cruise the car to even out temps and friction etc etc, then I do a run up and watch max power reading, I repeat this until I get consistent power reading, I then record a run. The process is repeated with changes to fuelling, ignition timing, cam timing if accessible, etc etc. At the end I do a coastdown test which involves dropping the car into neutral from peak test speed and letting the software time the deceleration.
Job is a good one and we all enjoy the tuning including the customer as I prefer working with the customer there as it is part of the experience rather than end up with a bit of paper and a dyno plot and not having been involved with the process ( I try and be holistic).
The bad bits we have found. On big power cars (usually 500 bhp plus) I put a load on the pau as this seems to steady the whole system, turbo cars do not work without a load to spool up the turbo.. I usually put a 1% load on (750 bhp pau so 7.5 bhp) Minis stall on this and will not accelerat to put it into perspective. The 1000 bhp Viper that showed 970?( cant recall) on our rollers took a 3% load to get sensible power curve. When the turbo works properly we get a characteristic curve which shouts...TURBO! With the load on I cannot gauge optimum reading for recording so, from experience I do three/four runs before taking a reading.
On one occasion we were running a big bhp car on a 1% load with side exhaust in front of rear wheel. We were having varying readings which confused me. Keith suddenly realised the exhaust was roasting the pau, problem solved as we shielded the pau aperture! It reminded me about what Paul said when he built the dyno....if you use the pau for say one minute, let it cool for at least a minute or you will get spurious readings!
That is what I do when I am dynoing. I make no mention of accuracy of figures obtained. I could be measuring monkey nuts for all it matters. I try and get the best monkeynut output at all rpms!
The inertia testing, has, in my opinion, helped me move forwards more than anything else in my 30 years of owning a dyno and I can see why Factory Race and Race teams swear by them. The numbers are irrelevant as long as they are the best one can get.
I only run the one roller setup so I only conmpare like for like power readings. The inertia calibration doesn't vary.
I hope to get the Superflow engine dyno running in a month or two, I need to make a device for adapting the crank/flywheel to fit the 1 3/8 ten spline spigot shaft on the dyno and work out adaptor plate dimensions, then we are all steam ahead.
I would be interested to hear other dyno operators experiences and all those involved with dynos including junkies who cant spend enough time on the rollers. I am one of them so I am lucky I do it day in and day out
Peter
In the ideal World Dave would still be my mate and lap up all the power figures I get especially the coastdown variations we record and incorporate the data into his hard earned engine performance software. I would log down all the variations so Dave and Stan could use the figures, but I don't as it would be time consuming. Dave and I used to spend hours messing about on the rollers and flow bench and generally talking rubbish as us power junkies do
My credentials;I have an excellent track record for producing championship winning heads, engines and cars since 1987 and I am still improving the power outputs of our work as we have to keep up or better the opposition so our stuff can keep winning, which it does.
Here we go, Dyno Anonymous.... I am Peter Burgess and I do dynoing.
I have owned and operated a rolling road dyno since 1987.
First dyno Clayton water brake. Power figures varied depending if I loaded down from revs, different fast to steady load. readings would vary if I did fast unloads to slow unloads. I tried to keep things (including same operator for same car) as constant as I could. Dial out put gauges so we had to write down all the figures. Lots of seat of the pants stuff.
2010 and I invested in a Dynocom twin roller (actually quad roller centre split so runs more bearing than the Clayton so less harmonic vibration from length of rollers) this cost £26000 at the time, the 'now' price is horrendous with the plunging pound. I chose twin rollers from habit and personal prefernce incase of problems. In 30 years I have had a few engines go, dip clucth fast, a few boxes and diffs go (pray). Inertia of rollers propels vehicle backwards out of the rollers. I have had one wheel fall off and luckily the diff rested on the centre, non roller part of the dynocom so no damage to the rollers. I have had one instantaneous tyre blow out, car went wobbly and I thought tie down straps had let go, but, as the tyre went the starps went slack as they were not working against the tyre. I was thankful for the twin rollers and wonder what would have been the effect of the blow out on a single roller.
The Dynocom has inertia rollers and a pau on the front (rear if I put car in opposite way). The dyno was comissioned and built for us, not an off the shelf item. It was explained to me that inertia testing is the most repeatable way of tuning on the rollers and that the eddy brake pau can and does vary its ability to absorb power depending on pau temp as the gap between the electromagnets and the vented rotors will change and this affects the calibration of the strain gauge so, whenever possible run in inertia mode.
My mission...get best performance and or economy from vehicle on rollers.
The way I use the dyno....
Put car on rollers and line it up, strap it down ( not so it doesn't fly out of the rollers, if the car ever climbed out it doesn't go far as the car has no momentum) to make sure contact is maintained front and rear rollers as the software uses the inertia of both rollers for the power readings. It does no climb out of the front roler with the pau like the old Clayton one did as it is not holding the load. If we hold the load for mapping/ pinking testing it does try and climb out but contact with rear roller is not vital as long as we hold the load speed.
Put info into laptop, decide what rpm to record from. For road cars this is usually 2000 rpm. I then run the car on the rollers, check what mph is at 2000 rpm direct drive gear, usually 4th on 5 speed box. I warm the car and rollers up and steadily build up speed and throttle openings. I then watch max power on the laptop, after about ten runs when the car is first on the rollers I get a consisyent max bhp figure. At this point I start the recording from whatever mph is 2000 rpm. I finish the run by pressing the stop record button and then lifting off. Lift off before pressing stop record and get weird readings imo. I then do a run from below 2000 rpm as it is ob vious engines do not start producing power only from that rpm, this gives us a more realistic reading. I start the runs from the same lower rpm everytime or I get a different power curve below say 2500 rpm and I want consistency.
I trhen check the fuel curve, throttle openings etc etc then do another run, but, I cruise the car to even out temps and friction etc etc, then I do a run up and watch max power reading, I repeat this until I get consistent power reading, I then record a run. The process is repeated with changes to fuelling, ignition timing, cam timing if accessible, etc etc. At the end I do a coastdown test which involves dropping the car into neutral from peak test speed and letting the software time the deceleration.
Job is a good one and we all enjoy the tuning including the customer as I prefer working with the customer there as it is part of the experience rather than end up with a bit of paper and a dyno plot and not having been involved with the process ( I try and be holistic).
The bad bits we have found. On big power cars (usually 500 bhp plus) I put a load on the pau as this seems to steady the whole system, turbo cars do not work without a load to spool up the turbo.. I usually put a 1% load on (750 bhp pau so 7.5 bhp) Minis stall on this and will not accelerat to put it into perspective. The 1000 bhp Viper that showed 970?( cant recall) on our rollers took a 3% load to get sensible power curve. When the turbo works properly we get a characteristic curve which shouts...TURBO! With the load on I cannot gauge optimum reading for recording so, from experience I do three/four runs before taking a reading.
On one occasion we were running a big bhp car on a 1% load with side exhaust in front of rear wheel. We were having varying readings which confused me. Keith suddenly realised the exhaust was roasting the pau, problem solved as we shielded the pau aperture! It reminded me about what Paul said when he built the dyno....if you use the pau for say one minute, let it cool for at least a minute or you will get spurious readings!
That is what I do when I am dynoing. I make no mention of accuracy of figures obtained. I could be measuring monkey nuts for all it matters. I try and get the best monkeynut output at all rpms!
The inertia testing, has, in my opinion, helped me move forwards more than anything else in my 30 years of owning a dyno and I can see why Factory Race and Race teams swear by them. The numbers are irrelevant as long as they are the best one can get.
I only run the one roller setup so I only conmpare like for like power readings. The inertia calibration doesn't vary.
I hope to get the Superflow engine dyno running in a month or two, I need to make a device for adapting the crank/flywheel to fit the 1 3/8 ten spline spigot shaft on the dyno and work out adaptor plate dimensions, then we are all steam ahead.
I would be interested to hear other dyno operators experiences and all those involved with dynos including junkies who cant spend enough time on the rollers. I am one of them so I am lucky I do it day in and day out
Peter
Will follow this with interest. Would be interesting to get Vixpy's thoughts on RRs as well.
Peter, you've known Dave 30yrs and you haven't learned how to handle him yet? There's no hope for any of us
I've had the odd spar with him over the last 15yrs or so (205gtidrivers forum) but he's been overwhelmingly helpful on balance and taught me a lot.
The internet is richer for his input, even if some people don't see the wood for the trees, through his abrupt manner.
His Puma Racing articles are still the bible for us PSA-lovers and I wish he'd come out of retirement.
Anyway, he doesn't need me to massage his ego or defend him on a forum!
This is one of the few forums where you get an interesting, technical debate so please don't be put off posting your figures.
Some certainly appear 'remarkable' and where that's the case; one must expect some challenge. In cases where you can't vouch for the engine build; there's no shame in that - just report what you know and don't let those of us challenging it bring you down.
I am certain it is not malicious - I think people are just 'interested' for the most parts and want to understand how/ why!
I think we all accept that the RR is just 'one tool' in the development of a car/ engine and perhaps doesn't give the certainty the man on the street (if he knows what one is) might think.
Peter, you've known Dave 30yrs and you haven't learned how to handle him yet? There's no hope for any of us
I've had the odd spar with him over the last 15yrs or so (205gtidrivers forum) but he's been overwhelmingly helpful on balance and taught me a lot.
The internet is richer for his input, even if some people don't see the wood for the trees, through his abrupt manner.
His Puma Racing articles are still the bible for us PSA-lovers and I wish he'd come out of retirement.
Anyway, he doesn't need me to massage his ego or defend him on a forum!
This is one of the few forums where you get an interesting, technical debate so please don't be put off posting your figures.
Some certainly appear 'remarkable' and where that's the case; one must expect some challenge. In cases where you can't vouch for the engine build; there's no shame in that - just report what you know and don't let those of us challenging it bring you down.
I am certain it is not malicious - I think people are just 'interested' for the most parts and want to understand how/ why!
I think we all accept that the RR is just 'one tool' in the development of a car/ engine and perhaps doesn't give the certainty the man on the street (if he knows what one is) might think.
I will keep posting when I have something interesting and yes I do expect flak but I do not manipulate figures its as it left the factory, apart from the repairs and renewals electronically; delicate circuits don't like vibrations or static shocks from cars! Inertia dynos also show bigger numbers with lighter running gear and engine components, which cannot be so on a static dyno unless per sec runs in which case figures are lower because of inertia! On the track, the ones with the most power at the wheels on an inertia dyno accelerate faster than identical power spec on the engine dyno cars that have less on the inertia tests. To me, I see it as measuring road/track performance capabilities on an inertia dyno. I am really impressed with the repeatability of this type of testing and can see why the Silkolene guy said that was the ultimate way of tuning the race bikes for them.
I get the horrible feeling, when I get the engine dyno running and share figures ( when I can as I have a fair few folk wanting to do some research type work which will not be public domain stuff unless I am lucky), it will set the cat amongst the pigeons even more.
I suppose some of this is we have a tendency to want things to be ordered in some way in our heads so we can make 'concrete' sense of them and shades of grey (not sexually!) can be unnerving, that is why our brains join the black dots and we see a Dalmatian...or not
https://www.moillusions.com/mysterious-dots-optica...
I started this thread as I am hoping it develops into a constructive thread where we ALL benefit from everyone's input and go away richer and it doesn't degenerate into a destructive 'you are!' in the playground thread.
Peter
Mike, I'll be happier when I find a clutch plate suitable to adapt the dyno Thanks for trying.
I get the horrible feeling, when I get the engine dyno running and share figures ( when I can as I have a fair few folk wanting to do some research type work which will not be public domain stuff unless I am lucky), it will set the cat amongst the pigeons even more.
I suppose some of this is we have a tendency to want things to be ordered in some way in our heads so we can make 'concrete' sense of them and shades of grey (not sexually!) can be unnerving, that is why our brains join the black dots and we see a Dalmatian...or not
https://www.moillusions.com/mysterious-dots-optica...
I started this thread as I am hoping it develops into a constructive thread where we ALL benefit from everyone's input and go away richer and it doesn't degenerate into a destructive 'you are!' in the playground thread.
Peter
Mike, I'll be happier when I find a clutch plate suitable to adapt the dyno
Thanks for trying.Edited by PeterBurgess on Thursday 23 February 08:55
PeterBurgess said:
Mike, I'll be happier when I find a clutch plate suitable to adapt the dyno Thanks for trying.
When an engine is on an engine dyno.....does the system bolt to the crank, or do they actually run with the cars clutch/flywheel ? Thanks for trying.Edited by PeterBurgess on Thursday 23 February 08:55
Or is it a different clutch you refer to ?
I was actually googling engine dynos the other day and this aspect wasnt really that clear, but it did seem fitting the engine to the dyno itself was a relatively easy task in terms of drive.
So a gearbox type input shaft makes sense.
Hi Stevie
I attach a pic of the adaptor we want to make up, these ones cost around £800 plus duties to the UK. SF says use clutch on OE engine and fit spigot shaft to match, we want to run the usa 1 3/8th 10 spline on everything and the pic is an example of a workaround to achieve this.
Peter
I attach a pic of the adaptor we want to make up, these ones cost around £800 plus duties to the UK. SF says use clutch on OE engine and fit spigot shaft to match, we want to run the usa 1 3/8th 10 spline on everything and the pic is an example of a workaround to achieve this.
Peter
I am a bit confused about the PAU operation as you have described it.
Yes, the torque applied for a given current will drop as the disks get hot and the air gap expands, but that has nothing to do with the strain gauge readings. The gauge should just (correctly) read the lower applied torque.
I can see that a notional 1% load applied will vary with retarder temp, but the measurement should still be correct.
Yes, the torque applied for a given current will drop as the disks get hot and the air gap expands, but that has nothing to do with the strain gauge readings. The gauge should just (correctly) read the lower applied torque.
I can see that a notional 1% load applied will vary with retarder temp, but the measurement should still be correct.
PeterBurgess said:
Hi Stevie
I attach a pic of the adaptor we want to make up, these ones cost around £800 plus duties to the UK. SF says use clutch on OE engine and fit spigot shaft to match, we want to run the usa 1 3/8th 10 spline on everything and the pic is an example of a workaround to achieve this.
Peter
Surely the likes of Helix, TTV, Superclutch etc could make up something like that very easily ?I attach a pic of the adaptor we want to make up, these ones cost around £800 plus duties to the UK. SF says use clutch on OE engine and fit spigot shaft to match, we want to run the usa 1 3/8th 10 spline on everything and the pic is an example of a workaround to achieve this.
Peter
Is it a solid metal disc ? Does it actually need to be a solid metal disc ?
PeterBurgess said:
Hi Stevie
I attach a pic of the adaptor we want to make up, these ones cost around £800 plus duties to the UK. SF says use clutch on OE engine and fit spigot shaft to match, we want to run the usa 1 3/8th 10 spline on everything and the pic is an example of a workaround to achieve this.
Peter
Peter,I attach a pic of the adaptor we want to make up, these ones cost around £800 plus duties to the UK. SF says use clutch on OE engine and fit spigot shaft to match, we want to run the usa 1 3/8th 10 spline on everything and the pic is an example of a workaround to achieve this.
Peter
One thing I would do, if you are looking to have someone make one is see if someone that has one could give you an idea of the the hub spring rate is. Using the OE clutch would a spring rate somewhat adjusted for that engines output.
Stan
Thanks Stan, I'll bear that in mind. I think most of these size centres are off big USA motors and trucks so I should be ok.
There are lots of things to learn with the new dyno. I had a friend checking over our installation today and he pointed out I should put 1/4" steel plates to the walls adjacent to the crank line in case of grenading of engine, he says he has seen bits go through walls! On the rolling road I have always assumed the inner wings and bodywork will absorb the bits. I suppose with endurance testing this sort of 'BOOM!' is more likely to occur on the engine dyno.
Stevie, it is solid to adapt to flywheels.
Peter
There are lots of things to learn with the new dyno. I had a friend checking over our installation today and he pointed out I should put 1/4" steel plates to the walls adjacent to the crank line in case of grenading of engine, he says he has seen bits go through walls! On the rolling road I have always assumed the inner wings and bodywork will absorb the bits. I suppose with endurance testing this sort of 'BOOM!' is more likely to occur on the engine dyno.
Stevie, it is solid to adapt to flywheels.
Peter
Yes we go into neutral and the software times the -ve acceleration and works out the drag based on the inertia of the rollers, opposite of the power measuring test. It is excellent for comparing transmissions like for like for efficiency. I have mentioned before, we had a car in which was around 5 bhp down at the wheels compared to the last visit, on a hunch I checked the coast down losses and they had gone up around 5, on questioning the owner said he had put some treacle consistency anti leak stuff into his diff to cure a drip!
Yes Stevie, I will see if I get anywhere with the contacts I have, if not I'll ask other folk as you have suggested.
Peter
Yes Stevie, I will see if I get anywhere with the contacts I have, if not I'll ask other folk as you have suggested.
Peter
PeterBurgess said:
Yes we go into neutral and the software times the -ve acceleration and works out the drag based on the inertia of the rollers, opposite of the power measuring test. It is excellent for comparing transmissions like for like for efficiency. I have mentioned before, we had a car in which was around 5 bhp down at the wheels compared to the last visit, on a hunch I checked the coast down losses and they had gone up around 5, on questioning the owner said he had put some treacle consistency anti leak stuff into his diff to cure a drip!
Yes Stevie, I will see if I get anywhere with the contacts I have, if not I'll ask other folk as you have suggested.
Peter
Sounds a bit stone age to me. Yes Stevie, I will see if I get anywhere with the contacts I have, if not I'll ask other folk as you have suggested.
Peter
Why not use an electric motor to drive the rollers and measure the current drawn to calculate the exact friction within the transmission?
I've got a 30 year old bike magazine where they did this to calculate exactly where all the power went.
Tango13 said:
PeterBurgess said:
Yes we go into neutral and the software times the -ve acceleration and works out the drag based on the inertia of the rollers, opposite of the power measuring test. It is excellent for comparing transmissions like for like for efficiency. I have mentioned before, we had a car in which was around 5 bhp down at the wheels compared to the last visit, on a hunch I checked the coast down losses and they had gone up around 5, on questioning the owner said he had put some treacle consistency anti leak stuff into his diff to cure a drip!
Yes Stevie, I will see if I get anywhere with the contacts I have, if not I'll ask other folk as you have suggested.
Peter
Sounds a bit stone age to me. Yes Stevie, I will see if I get anywhere with the contacts I have, if not I'll ask other folk as you have suggested.
Peter
Why not use an electric motor to drive the rollers and measure the current drawn to calculate the exact friction within the transmission?
I've got a 30 year old bike magazine where they did this to calculate exactly where all the power went.
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