BBR MX5 225 NC, or any ITB’d car question
Discussion
DD3566 said:
Sadly from my experience BBR's customer service (and sometimes the quality of their work) is shocking!
Paid £7500 for a Stage 1 Turbo kit on my NC, plus Wheels and Suspension. Told it would be 1 week to complete the work, and to collect the car and hand back the courtesy car on X date. Brilliant I thought. Went to collect the car on X date and there it was parked outside, ride height was abit high but hey maybe the springs haven't settled down to their final height? Sat in the waiting room, Neil came out on the phone and said "Be with you in a minute". Over an hour passed before he finally came out to speak to me, only to tell me they hadn't fitted the suspension due to one of the dampers having a leak (apparently). So they thought I might want the car with standard suspension and to drop it back on the following monday to have the dampers fitted. I wasn't too impressed at having to wait an hour for him to tell me the car wasn't fully complete, he could have rang or emailed ahead of time asking if I wanted to bother collecting the car. Seemed like a lack of common sense tbh
A week later I finally collected the car with the complete suspension fitted, and everything was great! For about a month, then I started getting smoke blowing through the vents and out of the bonnet. Back to BBR, turned out the oil feed to the turbo was leaking onto the manifold. Fixed under warranty and all was good....until 2 weeks later even more smoke. This time it was the oil drain leaking, so back to BBR to be fixed again.
After this the car was great, worked well for the best part of a year and was serviced by BBR themselves. That is until about 14 months after conversion (and crucially, 2 months after the warranty expired) and the turbo itself let go. During a spirited drive through the Cotswolds the turbo started making a horrible grinding noise above 3000 RPM. Back to BBR yet again and their diagnosis was the oil feed line got blocked due to "poor quality oil" overheating and gumming up the feed line. Which was amusing as they had done the last oil change and provided the "poor quality oil" 6000 miles ago (mostly daily driving duties, never tracked). When I had asked them about oil change intervals upon very first collection they recommended sticking to the Mazda OEM interval of 10,000 miles. They did agree to forego the labour charge to replace the turbo, but as it was out of warranty I had to pay £800 to replace the turbo core. After this I completely lost faith in the car, knowing that a brisk drive on B Roads could potentially kill the turbo yet again. Ended up selling the car a few months later and buying a Vauxhall Monaro instead.
After all this I would never recommend BBR to anyone, once they have your money they couldn't give less of a **** about you or the car. For £7500 (back in 2017) I would expect the system to be robust and not defeated by some Oxfordshire B Roads. Looking back now I was far too meek and should have demanded more from BBR in terms of rectification. The whole "poor quality oil" line still annoys me to this day, and i should have made them stand by their work and sort the dead turbo free of charge. Live and learn I guess
Quick edit, nearly forgot about the fact that the engine mapping caused the OEM 2nd Catalytic Converter to completely disintegrate. The exhaust used to pop and bang quite alot, which seemed to be slowly breaking up the cat bit by bit. Had an MOT fail due to emissions, after sticking a camera down the exhaust section I found there was literally no Cat material left at all. The only other option is that BBR decatted the exhaust without telling me (which I doubt, but at the same time it wouldn't surprise me). Again, pretty poor for a car which was advertised as passing an honest MOT!
Thats really interesting. I had a few bumps along the way prior to even collecting the car. They actually had it for 3 weeks in total, I gave them a hard stop date (24th Jan I think) as, similar to you, I’d arranged some fairly complex logistics to make sure I could drive the car from there back to Hereford. I checked my emails mid flight (USA-LHR) and had an email saying my car won’t be ready for another 24hrs. Totally unworkable as I’d planned a one way hire from the airport to brackley to dump, then drive the Mazda home. A bit of too and frowing on the phone with their office dude, who is extremely irritating, and we managed to settle on the agreed date. I was advised to arrive around lunchtime, so I got there for 1230, and ended up leaving at around 1830. So a 5ish hour wait. It didn’t overly bother me as I missed the traffic driving home, and had a good chat with some other customers. Neil was really busy and in fairness, explained there was some stuff out of their control that held the car up (another car being stuck on the ramp). I’m trying to not let it bother me that they had the car there for 3 weeks prior to that date, which makes me think they left my car to the last safe moment to start work on, and a small delay cocked the timeline up. I get the impression admin isn’t their strongpoint either. Paid £7500 for a Stage 1 Turbo kit on my NC, plus Wheels and Suspension. Told it would be 1 week to complete the work, and to collect the car and hand back the courtesy car on X date. Brilliant I thought. Went to collect the car on X date and there it was parked outside, ride height was abit high but hey maybe the springs haven't settled down to their final height? Sat in the waiting room, Neil came out on the phone and said "Be with you in a minute". Over an hour passed before he finally came out to speak to me, only to tell me they hadn't fitted the suspension due to one of the dampers having a leak (apparently). So they thought I might want the car with standard suspension and to drop it back on the following monday to have the dampers fitted. I wasn't too impressed at having to wait an hour for him to tell me the car wasn't fully complete, he could have rang or emailed ahead of time asking if I wanted to bother collecting the car. Seemed like a lack of common sense tbh
A week later I finally collected the car with the complete suspension fitted, and everything was great! For about a month, then I started getting smoke blowing through the vents and out of the bonnet. Back to BBR, turned out the oil feed to the turbo was leaking onto the manifold. Fixed under warranty and all was good....until 2 weeks later even more smoke. This time it was the oil drain leaking, so back to BBR to be fixed again.
After this the car was great, worked well for the best part of a year and was serviced by BBR themselves. That is until about 14 months after conversion (and crucially, 2 months after the warranty expired) and the turbo itself let go. During a spirited drive through the Cotswolds the turbo started making a horrible grinding noise above 3000 RPM. Back to BBR yet again and their diagnosis was the oil feed line got blocked due to "poor quality oil" overheating and gumming up the feed line. Which was amusing as they had done the last oil change and provided the "poor quality oil" 6000 miles ago (mostly daily driving duties, never tracked). When I had asked them about oil change intervals upon very first collection they recommended sticking to the Mazda OEM interval of 10,000 miles. They did agree to forego the labour charge to replace the turbo, but as it was out of warranty I had to pay £800 to replace the turbo core. After this I completely lost faith in the car, knowing that a brisk drive on B Roads could potentially kill the turbo yet again. Ended up selling the car a few months later and buying a Vauxhall Monaro instead.
After all this I would never recommend BBR to anyone, once they have your money they couldn't give less of a **** about you or the car. For £7500 (back in 2017) I would expect the system to be robust and not defeated by some Oxfordshire B Roads. Looking back now I was far too meek and should have demanded more from BBR in terms of rectification. The whole "poor quality oil" line still annoys me to this day, and i should have made them stand by their work and sort the dead turbo free of charge. Live and learn I guess
Quick edit, nearly forgot about the fact that the engine mapping caused the OEM 2nd Catalytic Converter to completely disintegrate. The exhaust used to pop and bang quite alot, which seemed to be slowly breaking up the cat bit by bit. Had an MOT fail due to emissions, after sticking a camera down the exhaust section I found there was literally no Cat material left at all. The only other option is that BBR decatted the exhaust without telling me (which I doubt, but at the same time it wouldn't surprise me). Again, pretty poor for a car which was advertised as passing an honest MOT!
Edited by DD3566 on Friday 16th February 09:34
Edited by DD3566 on Friday 16th February 09:56
The cutting out at low revs issue presented once on the way home, reversing into a parking bay at the service station but I thought nothing of it. The attitude of the lad in the office has been awful, with the only “offer” they presented me is to return the car to them myself and sit in the waiting room all day (again). The final straw for me personally (and the below is an extract from the email he sent me) was being lied to regarding what the conversion is good for:
BBR: For individual throttle body cars stalling when revs fall can be rather common, hence why it is recommended for those that use the cars as track toys rather than a daily driver in which we would have recommended a forced induction package.
My reply: I would suggest you read your own website with regards to the 225 conversion for clarity. I’m not sure where your suggestion appears below, certainly not in the “user friendly, everyday driveable conversion and ideally suited to town, touring and track days” sentence. I’ve been more than reasonable, and want to avoid an email chain argument, hence addressing that email to Neil.
Kit tech description: The end results are a mighty 224 bhp (225 PS) at 7550 rpm, combined with peak torque of 174 lb.ft at 5950 rpm. Over 170 lb.ft is available from between 4000-6000 rpm, with more than 150 lb.ft on tap from just 3000 rpm all the way up to the 7800 rpm rev limiter (MK3 models limited to 7500 rpm) - highlighting the user-friendly nature of the conversion that is everyday driveable and ideally suited to town, touring and track days. In-cabin noise is acceptable for regular driving and motorway use, with a distinctive, addictive intake ‘bark’ being produced under wide open throttle acceleration.
It’s been a bit of a pi**take and despite having a workable relationship with Neil, as I say he has been really good with me, I won’t be using them again for anything.
Edited by philrs03 on Friday 16th February 11:03
Not much to add but I have ITBs on my Zetec engined race car and whilst the idle used to be a bit crap when starting it for the first time after a few weeks/month of inactivity, once up and running it would idle fine (including after restarts etc). I never had any issue with it cutting out when maneuvering around the pits.
It has now been remapped (to account for a few engine changes) and the tuner specifically mentioned having to spend time to get the low load resolution (don't really know what that means) right and so as others have said, perhaps the map is the issue.
It has now been remapped (to account for a few engine changes) and the tuner specifically mentioned having to spend time to get the low load resolution (don't really know what that means) right and so as others have said, perhaps the map is the issue.
philrs03 said:
Thats really interesting. I had a few bumps along the way prior to even collecting the car. They actually had it for 3 weeks in total, I gave them a hard stop date (24th Jan I think) as, similar to you, I’d arranged some fairly complex logistics to make sure I could drive the car from there back to Hereford. I checked my emails mid flight (USA-LHR) and had an email saying my car won’t be ready for another 24hrs. Totally unworkable as I’d planned a one way hire from the airport to brackley to dump, then drive the Mazda home. A bit of too and frowing on the phone with their office dude, who is extremely irritating, and we managed to settle on the agreed date. I was advised to arrive around lunchtime, so I got there for 1230, and ended up leaving at around 1830. So a 5ish hour wait. It didn’t overly bother me as I missed the traffic driving home, and had a good chat with some other customers. Neil was really busy and in fairness, explained there was some stuff out of their control that held the car up (another car being stuck on the ramp). I’m trying to not let it bother me that they had the car there for 3 weeks prior to that date, which makes me think they left my car to the last safe moment to start work on, and a small delay cocked the timeline up. I get the impression admin isn’t their strongpoint either.
The cutting out at low revs issue presented once on the way home, reversing into a parking bay at the service station but I thought nothing of it. The attitude of the lad in the office has been awful, with the only “offer” they presented me is to return the car to them myself and sit in the waiting room all day (again). The final straw for me personally (and the below is an extract from the email he sent me) was being lied to regarding what the conversion is good for:
BBR: For individual throttle body cars stalling when revs fall can be rather common, hence why it is recommended for those that use the cars as track toys rather than a daily driver in which we would have recommended a forced induction package.
My reply: I would suggest you read your own website with regards to the 225 conversion for clarity. I’m not sure where your suggestion appears below, certainly not in the “user friendly, everyday driveable conversion and ideally suited to town, touring and track days” sentence. I’ve been more than reasonable, and want to avoid an email chain argument, hence addressing that email to Neil.
Kit tech description: The end results are a mighty 224 bhp (225 PS) at 7550 rpm, combined with peak torque of 174 lb.ft at 5950 rpm. Over 170 lb.ft is available from between 4000-6000 rpm, with more than 150 lb.ft on tap from just 3000 rpm all the way up to the 7800 rpm rev limiter (MK3 models limited to 7500 rpm) - highlighting the user-friendly nature of the conversion that is everyday driveable and ideally suited to town, touring and track days. In-cabin noise is acceptable for regular driving and motorway use, with a distinctive, addictive intake ‘bark’ being produced under wide open throttle acceleration.
It’s been a bit of a pi**take and despite having a workable relationship with Neil, as I say he has been really good with me, I won’t be using them again for anything.
Seems like typical BBR then, say anything to avoid responsibility even it it contradicts their own marketing. They show the turbo cars on track on the webpage for the turbo kit, and proudly provide links to videos of them sliding around track. However when owners starting experiencing similar issues to mine after mild track sessions they'd say "the car isn't suitable for track days, and should be kept for road use only". The chap who bought mine did end up doing some track days in the car, and cracked the manifold in the process. I get the feeling that they don't really do any sort of durability testing on their products, they just go for a good headline power figure to get people in the door The cutting out at low revs issue presented once on the way home, reversing into a parking bay at the service station but I thought nothing of it. The attitude of the lad in the office has been awful, with the only “offer” they presented me is to return the car to them myself and sit in the waiting room all day (again). The final straw for me personally (and the below is an extract from the email he sent me) was being lied to regarding what the conversion is good for:
BBR: For individual throttle body cars stalling when revs fall can be rather common, hence why it is recommended for those that use the cars as track toys rather than a daily driver in which we would have recommended a forced induction package.
My reply: I would suggest you read your own website with regards to the 225 conversion for clarity. I’m not sure where your suggestion appears below, certainly not in the “user friendly, everyday driveable conversion and ideally suited to town, touring and track days” sentence. I’ve been more than reasonable, and want to avoid an email chain argument, hence addressing that email to Neil.
Kit tech description: The end results are a mighty 224 bhp (225 PS) at 7550 rpm, combined with peak torque of 174 lb.ft at 5950 rpm. Over 170 lb.ft is available from between 4000-6000 rpm, with more than 150 lb.ft on tap from just 3000 rpm all the way up to the 7800 rpm rev limiter (MK3 models limited to 7500 rpm) - highlighting the user-friendly nature of the conversion that is everyday driveable and ideally suited to town, touring and track days. In-cabin noise is acceptable for regular driving and motorway use, with a distinctive, addictive intake ‘bark’ being produced under wide open throttle acceleration.
It’s been a bit of a pi**take and despite having a workable relationship with Neil, as I say he has been really good with me, I won’t be using them again for anything.
Edited by philrs03 on Friday 16th February 11:03
DD3566 said:
Seems like typical BBR then, say anything to avoid responsibility even it it contradicts their own marketing. They show the turbo cars on track on the webpage for the turbo kit, and proudly provide links to videos of them sliding around track. However when owners starting experiencing similar issues to mine after mild track sessions they'd say "the car isn't suitable for track days, and should be kept for road use only". The chap who bought mine did end up doing some track days in the car, and cracked the manifold in the process. I get the feeling that they don't really do any sort of durability testing on their products, they just go for a good headline power figure to get people in the door
Yeah it certainly seems that way to me. Id like to think I’m on the reasonable end of “customer that wants things to be done right”, I’m certainly not anal or difficult (in my opinion), but I absolutely cannot stand being lied to, and entertain people trying to weasel out of their responsibilities. I would never have said anything, or even have to play email ping pong, if they just owned the mistake. My whole world is firefighting inevitable cock ups, no one cares about the mistake itself it’s the recovery. BBR score a solid zero on that front for sure. I went to BBR because although more expensive, I assumed it was a more “polished” solution to what I wanted. It’s such a shame, I’d quite like a turbocharged ND as my next car, it certainly won’t be from them.
I have an E30 M3 Sport Evo with ITBs running a Motec M800 ECU (unsophisticated) using throttle angle and rpm as the load sense. It will pull away in 1st (and 2nd) without touching the gas pedal. When braking from speed in a high gear, dipping the clutch at 1000-1200rpm, the engine settles on idle immediately. your issue seems to be entirely mapping related. Power on a dyno is piss easy. The hard part is drivability, but for BBR to correct this (firstly, they would need to admit it is a problem), they would need a car for months and spend may hours data logging and tuning the hard parts of the map. That will cost them money, so they won't do it.
I have long suspected BBR we shysters. Their claims for power and, particularly torque, seem quite outlandish.
174lbft from a 2lt is 87lbft/lt.
A Porsche 997 GT3 4.0 has 339 lbft from 3995cc, that is 84.8lbft/lt.
A Porsche 991 GT3 RS has 335lbft from 3995cc, that is 83.8lbft/lt.
A Porsche 992 GT3 HAS 347lbft from 3995cc, that is 86.8lbft/lt.
Are BBR saying a fairly run of the mill 2lt (Ford Duratec based) mass produced 4cyl engine has a better output than a really focused supercar, just because BBR fitted some cam, slapped on Some ITBs and an exhaust?
All smells fishy to me.
I have long suspected BBR we shysters. Their claims for power and, particularly torque, seem quite outlandish.
174lbft from a 2lt is 87lbft/lt.
A Porsche 997 GT3 4.0 has 339 lbft from 3995cc, that is 84.8lbft/lt.
A Porsche 991 GT3 RS has 335lbft from 3995cc, that is 83.8lbft/lt.
A Porsche 992 GT3 HAS 347lbft from 3995cc, that is 86.8lbft/lt.
Are BBR saying a fairly run of the mill 2lt (Ford Duratec based) mass produced 4cyl engine has a better output than a really focused supercar, just because BBR fitted some cam, slapped on Some ITBs and an exhaust?
All smells fishy to me.
stevesingo said:
I have an E30 M3 Sport Evo with ITBs running a Motec M800 ECU (unsophisticated) using throttle angle and rpm as the load sense. It will pull away in 1st (and 2nd) without touching the gas pedal. When braking from speed in a high gear, dipping the clutch at 1000-1200rpm, the engine settles on idle immediately. your issue seems to be entirely mapping related. Power on a dyno is piss easy. The hard part is drivability, but for BBR to correct this (firstly, they would need to admit it is a problem), they would need a car for months and spend may hours data logging and tuning the hard parts of the map. That will cost them money, so they won't do it.
I have long suspected BBR we shysters. Their claims for power and, particularly torque, seem quite outlandish.
174lbft from a 2lt is 87lbft/lt.
A Porsche 997 GT3 4.0 has 339 lbft from 3995cc, that is 84.8lbft/lt.
A Porsche 991 GT3 RS has 335lbft from 3995cc, that is 83.8lbft/lt.
A Porsche 992 GT3 HAS 347lbft from 3995cc, that is 86.8lbft/lt.
Are BBR saying a fairly run of the mill 2lt (Ford Duratec based) mass produced 4cyl engine has a better output than a really focused supercar, just because BBR fitted some cam, slapped on Some ITBs and an exhaust?
All smells fishy to me.
Forced induction, Mr High Horse. I have long suspected BBR we shysters. Their claims for power and, particularly torque, seem quite outlandish.
174lbft from a 2lt is 87lbft/lt.
A Porsche 997 GT3 4.0 has 339 lbft from 3995cc, that is 84.8lbft/lt.
A Porsche 991 GT3 RS has 335lbft from 3995cc, that is 83.8lbft/lt.
A Porsche 992 GT3 HAS 347lbft from 3995cc, that is 86.8lbft/lt.
Are BBR saying a fairly run of the mill 2lt (Ford Duratec based) mass produced 4cyl engine has a better output than a really focused supercar, just because BBR fitted some cam, slapped on Some ITBs and an exhaust?
All smells fishy to me.
Tony1963 said:
stevesingo said:
I have an E30 M3 Sport Evo with ITBs running a Motec M800 ECU (unsophisticated) using throttle angle and rpm as the load sense. It will pull away in 1st (and 2nd) without touching the gas pedal. When braking from speed in a high gear, dipping the clutch at 1000-1200rpm, the engine settles on idle immediately. your issue seems to be entirely mapping related. Power on a dyno is piss easy. The hard part is drivability, but for BBR to correct this (firstly, they would need to admit it is a problem), they would need a car for months and spend may hours data logging and tuning the hard parts of the map. That will cost them money, so they won't do it.
I have long suspected BBR we shysters. Their claims for power and, particularly torque, seem quite outlandish.
174lbft from a 2lt is 87lbft/lt.
A Porsche 997 GT3 4.0 has 339 lbft from 3995cc, that is 84.8lbft/lt.
A Porsche 991 GT3 RS has 335lbft from 3995cc, that is 83.8lbft/lt.
A Porsche 992 GT3 HAS 347lbft from 3995cc, that is 86.8lbft/lt.
Are BBR saying a fairly run of the mill 2lt (Ford Duratec based) mass produced 4cyl engine has a better output than a really focused supercar, just because BBR fitted some cam, slapped on Some ITBs and an exhaust?
All smells fishy to me.
Forced induction, Mr High Horse. I have long suspected BBR we shysters. Their claims for power and, particularly torque, seem quite outlandish.
174lbft from a 2lt is 87lbft/lt.
A Porsche 997 GT3 4.0 has 339 lbft from 3995cc, that is 84.8lbft/lt.
A Porsche 991 GT3 RS has 335lbft from 3995cc, that is 83.8lbft/lt.
A Porsche 992 GT3 HAS 347lbft from 3995cc, that is 86.8lbft/lt.
Are BBR saying a fairly run of the mill 2lt (Ford Duratec based) mass produced 4cyl engine has a better output than a really focused supercar, just because BBR fitted some cam, slapped on Some ITBs and an exhaust?
All smells fishy to me.
https://bbrgti.com/products/bbr-mx-5-nc-super-225
Thanks for you valued input.
stevesingo said:
Tony1963 said:
stevesingo said:
I have an E30 M3 Sport Evo with ITBs running a Motec M800 ECU (unsophisticated) using throttle angle and rpm as the load sense. It will pull away in 1st (and 2nd) without touching the gas pedal. When braking from speed in a high gear, dipping the clutch at 1000-1200rpm, the engine settles on idle immediately. your issue seems to be entirely mapping related. Power on a dyno is piss easy. The hard part is drivability, but for BBR to correct this (firstly, they would need to admit it is a problem), they would need a car for months and spend may hours data logging and tuning the hard parts of the map. That will cost them money, so they won't do it.
I have long suspected BBR we shysters. Their claims for power and, particularly torque, seem quite outlandish.
174lbft from a 2lt is 87lbft/lt.
A Porsche 997 GT3 4.0 has 339 lbft from 3995cc, that is 84.8lbft/lt.
A Porsche 991 GT3 RS has 335lbft from 3995cc, that is 83.8lbft/lt.
A Porsche 992 GT3 HAS 347lbft from 3995cc, that is 86.8lbft/lt.
Are BBR saying a fairly run of the mill 2lt (Ford Duratec based) mass produced 4cyl engine has a better output than a really focused supercar, just because BBR fitted some cam, slapped on Some ITBs and an exhaust?
All smells fishy to me.
Forced induction, Mr High Horse. I have long suspected BBR we shysters. Their claims for power and, particularly torque, seem quite outlandish.
174lbft from a 2lt is 87lbft/lt.
A Porsche 997 GT3 4.0 has 339 lbft from 3995cc, that is 84.8lbft/lt.
A Porsche 991 GT3 RS has 335lbft from 3995cc, that is 83.8lbft/lt.
A Porsche 992 GT3 HAS 347lbft from 3995cc, that is 86.8lbft/lt.
Are BBR saying a fairly run of the mill 2lt (Ford Duratec based) mass produced 4cyl engine has a better output than a really focused supercar, just because BBR fitted some cam, slapped on Some ITBs and an exhaust?
All smells fishy to me.
https://bbrgti.com/products/bbr-mx-5-nc-super-225
Thanks for you valued input.
it's straightfoward to get an iTB car to run at low rpm and light load idle for street use etc when the ITB kit is proper and setup properly mechanically. A proper setup will have a progressive linkage and utilise some kind of idle control devlice whether air bypass working via vacuum log, dbw etc with ecu controlling either airflow and/or igntion timing via closed loop. This will give OEM drivability and cold starts without tons of mapping. i would not consider a setup that doesnt utilise this if the car must do street duty. There should be no compromises as ITB have be fitted to OE vehicles for decades.
Pent said:
The lesson here is, if you want to modify your car first ask on the owners pages on Facebook or forums. Unfortunately there are many tales from BBR. The amount of money people are parting with is incredible for sub standard parts and service
Unfortunately/fortunately I keep a fairly low online profile and don't have social media. I think Neil the owner is a good guy, I’ve always had good interactions with him but yeah the service is pretty shocking. It’s an expensive lesson learned, and whilst I’m ultimately happy with the car when it’s at full chat (it’s awesome), I’ll never take the car or any of my future MX5’s there. Gassing Station | Engines & Drivetrain | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff