What engine damage can be caused by contaminated petrol?
Discussion
EUbrainwashing said:
My 2022 KAMIQ 1.5TSi manual Skoda had an apparent engine issue.
It was parked on a steep hill and when started the engine was kangarooing, thumping, balking.
We rang the dealer service department, car under new car warranty, and they advised this was an issue seen before, to switch the engine off and leave the car to stand for 15 minutes to reset before restarting. If it ran OK that would clear the problem. This we did and indeed the problem cleared.
A weeks or so later the same problem occurred again. We recontacted the dealer and they advised we should bring the car in for diagnosis. We arrange for a truck as that was more convenient. The car was tested by the recovery company and their diagnostic readout indicated an issue with No3 chamber but the car started and drove onto the truck. That was back in late September 2023.
Subsequently the dealership has dismantled the engine, all under the instruction of Skoda warranty department, found serious damage to No3 piston and chamber and then twice had a fuel sample analysed. The 1st fuel test showed water at 0.28% the second, three weeks later, showed water at just 0.093% but additionally showed the result of a 'physical fuel test' which reported that the 2nd sample 'appeared to be contaminated - possibly with diesel'.
The dealer has now informed us that the warranty claim for the engine damaged has been refused, that the damage is the result of fuel contamination and a new engine needs to be fitted at a cost of, wait for it, £14K and the diagnostic process is also our liability for which a bill is due for £1,450.00 even if we do not get the new engine fitted. Hahaha! Right.
I am not even sure they are right about the engine damage being as a result of the supposedly contaminated fuel - is such damage even possible? I read reports that a totally similar running issue was occurring with these VW 1.5TSi engines, so I am very suspicious of the diagnosis.
If all they say is true, that the contaminated fuel has caused all this damage, I am of the opinion that their initial advice, to stop the car and, if it re-started, drive on, was then clearly the wrong advice. Indeed I think they heard our description of the running issue and misdiagnosed it to be characteristic of the known engine issue with this power unit and gave the wrong advice which has resulted in mashing the engine. Are they liable?
From my time in aftersales several things come to mind about this. It was parked on a steep hill and when started the engine was kangarooing, thumping, balking.
We rang the dealer service department, car under new car warranty, and they advised this was an issue seen before, to switch the engine off and leave the car to stand for 15 minutes to reset before restarting. If it ran OK that would clear the problem. This we did and indeed the problem cleared.
A weeks or so later the same problem occurred again. We recontacted the dealer and they advised we should bring the car in for diagnosis. We arrange for a truck as that was more convenient. The car was tested by the recovery company and their diagnostic readout indicated an issue with No3 chamber but the car started and drove onto the truck. That was back in late September 2023.
Subsequently the dealership has dismantled the engine, all under the instruction of Skoda warranty department, found serious damage to No3 piston and chamber and then twice had a fuel sample analysed. The 1st fuel test showed water at 0.28% the second, three weeks later, showed water at just 0.093% but additionally showed the result of a 'physical fuel test' which reported that the 2nd sample 'appeared to be contaminated - possibly with diesel'.
The dealer has now informed us that the warranty claim for the engine damaged has been refused, that the damage is the result of fuel contamination and a new engine needs to be fitted at a cost of, wait for it, £14K and the diagnostic process is also our liability for which a bill is due for £1,450.00 even if we do not get the new engine fitted. Hahaha! Right.
I am not even sure they are right about the engine damage being as a result of the supposedly contaminated fuel - is such damage even possible? I read reports that a totally similar running issue was occurring with these VW 1.5TSi engines, so I am very suspicious of the diagnosis.
If all they say is true, that the contaminated fuel has caused all this damage, I am of the opinion that their initial advice, to stop the car and, if it re-started, drive on, was then clearly the wrong advice. Indeed I think they heard our description of the running issue and misdiagnosed it to be characteristic of the known engine issue with this power unit and gave the wrong advice which has resulted in mashing the engine. Are they liable?
When you first rang the dealer, who did you speak to?.
If you got a service advisor they should not have given you the advice you report. Their job is to deal with bookings etc not dish out unqualified guesswork diag. They should have simply advised you to get it recovered, different if you spoke to the service manager or a tech.
Was the recovery company the official partner of the warranty package? If not they should have simply recovered it without any attempt at diag or fixing as 3rd party interference is frowned upon by manufacturers warranty depts. For example, in this case it`s perfectly possible they could have added fuel from a dirty old can rattling around in their cab resulting in the fuel contamination issue. Unlikely but possible.
Regarding the diag charge, did you sign a job card authorising the dealer to commence work?
Back in my day this was compulsory as without a customer signature the job would fail a warranty audit and the dealer would suffer a chargeback, or on a standard retail job the customer could simply refuse to pay.
This signature would also indicate the customers awareness and acceptance of responsibility of any work should it be subsequently classed as non warranty. This should have been explained to you at point of signature.
I`d be asking the dealer if, as stated serious damage has been done to a piston and combustion chamber did it not show up using a boroscope thus possibly avoiding dismantling and running up a £1450 bill. Also on that point, when I was in the game, no way would we have dismantled the engine without a further discussion with the customer especially if we suspected it wouldn`t be covered by warranty.
Unfortunately OP, you`re now in a horrible position.
A car in bits with an, already, large bill that only 3 parties can cough up for: the manufacturer, the dealer or you.
Not sure what to advise, I think I`d be arranging a meeting with the service manager taking a list of relevant questions and then build a case to complain to the manufacturer with.
Good luck, you`re in for a battle.
The job card is worth getting hold of when you are in the dealer today.
The wording / scope of work needs to be along the lines of "investigate failure to start / difficulty starting" and should also include your statement of the circumstances and symptoms. You may well find that they have not done this and written up the job as what they did such as "strip engine and report on". This is not what you asked for.
They should also be providing a full report on the findings of the investigation including all the reports on the fuel testing done (why 2?) and what was seen inside the engine. This needs to be comprehensive not just a single line conclusion. Expect an up hill push to get pictures of the inside of the engine (not Skoda policy, health and safety in the workshop etc.) but be firm. Without the report and seeing for yourself you cannot make an informed decision on what to do next.
I would also suggest not committing to anything today. Get the report details and let's see if there is anything the hive mind can help with.
The wording / scope of work needs to be along the lines of "investigate failure to start / difficulty starting" and should also include your statement of the circumstances and symptoms. You may well find that they have not done this and written up the job as what they did such as "strip engine and report on". This is not what you asked for.
They should also be providing a full report on the findings of the investigation including all the reports on the fuel testing done (why 2?) and what was seen inside the engine. This needs to be comprehensive not just a single line conclusion. Expect an up hill push to get pictures of the inside of the engine (not Skoda policy, health and safety in the workshop etc.) but be firm. Without the report and seeing for yourself you cannot make an informed decision on what to do next.
I would also suggest not committing to anything today. Get the report details and let's see if there is anything the hive mind can help with.
Shows the whole top of the engine. No4 in at the bottom. The pistons have been detached from the crank. No3 is showing far more residue and as you will see all the damage to the piston and the cylinder are all with just No3
This is No 3 piston - looks like my cooking!
Edited by EUbrainwashing on Monday 19th February 22:01
EUbrainwashing said:
Hammer67 said:
I wouldn`t describe that as "significant damage".
That is carbon build up usually caused by either burning oil or over fuelling.
Bad injector is the most obvious culprit IMO.
Hold your horses - more to come!That is carbon build up usually caused by either burning oil or over fuelling.
Bad injector is the most obvious culprit IMO.
kambites said:
Limpet said:
The wasted spark type of ignition system used to be very common on engines sharing ignition coils between multiple cylinders (typically pairs) where the coil being triggered to fire one cylinder at the right time would also cause a simultaneous spark in the other cylinder. As the other cylinder would be at the wrong time in the cycle for combustion to occur, the spark would do nothing, and would be "wasted" . It genuinely is (or was) a thing.
Well you learn something new every day! In fact it turns out that my car has exactly such as system. 
The TSI has a coil pack per plug though.
So this is the scoring in chamber No3 - matches the damage to the No3 piston of cause. Can feel it with your finger. Quite significant.
This is No2 piston - looks OK but I am not sure about that gap in the ring - very sorry my photos are so pathetic.
Edited by EUbrainwashing on Tuesday 20th February 13:12
Hmm, not exactly what I was expecting, the grooves in no.3 cylinder remind me of those caused by a loose gudgeon pin but aren't centered correctly to be that.
The rings are a mess and look to be the cause of the bore damage but the top ring looks to be intact, the fact the piston skirt looks generally fine on no.3 piston indicating the oil film didn't breakdown.
The local collapse of the rings on no.3 piston is odd, I can't see how fuel contamination can be the cause of that, maybe local oil starvation?
The rings are a mess and look to be the cause of the bore damage but the top ring looks to be intact, the fact the piston skirt looks generally fine on no.3 piston indicating the oil film didn't breakdown.
The local collapse of the rings on no.3 piston is odd, I can't see how fuel contamination can be the cause of that, maybe local oil starvation?
Looks like ring land failure. Possibly caused by the carbon build up on the piston getting hot enough to cause pre ignition/detonation.
Knock sensor should have reported if that was happening.
Question is why the carbon build up and why only one cylinder.
The kangarooing the OP said happened looks to be a very common problem with that engine, lots on the net about it. Solution, apparently, a software update.
Knock sensor should have reported if that was happening.
Question is why the carbon build up and why only one cylinder.
The kangarooing the OP said happened looks to be a very common problem with that engine, lots on the net about it. Solution, apparently, a software update.
Fuel contamination is b
ks. The ‘contamination’ from the tests is negligible, and typical of most fuel purchased anywhere. Point is it’s well within the limits a typical engine can handle without damage. Go and test some fuel from another car that’s running fine, see what results you get for comparison.
The rings on cylinder 3 have failed causing loss of compression, and the subsequent poor running. The cause of that failure is hard to determine, but it’s not bad fuel, that’s for sure. Bad fuel would cause similar failures in all cylinders, not just the one. And as mentioned, the fuel isn’t contaminated. It’s well within acceptable limits. They’re just waving “lab tests” around as a bullst baffles brains technique hoping you’ll suck it up. Given the heavy carbon buildup my money is in a failed injector causing rich running and wall washing.
They need to test the injectors. I bet they find no 3 is shot. Either way, Skoda uk are blowing smoke up your arse. This is a warranty repair not bad fuel. Fight them hard.
ks. The ‘contamination’ from the tests is negligible, and typical of most fuel purchased anywhere. Point is it’s well within the limits a typical engine can handle without damage. Go and test some fuel from another car that’s running fine, see what results you get for comparison.The rings on cylinder 3 have failed causing loss of compression, and the subsequent poor running. The cause of that failure is hard to determine, but it’s not bad fuel, that’s for sure. Bad fuel would cause similar failures in all cylinders, not just the one. And as mentioned, the fuel isn’t contaminated. It’s well within acceptable limits. They’re just waving “lab tests” around as a bulls
t baffles brains technique hoping you’ll suck it up. Given the heavy carbon buildup my money is in a failed injector causing rich running and wall washing.They need to test the injectors. I bet they find no 3 is shot. Either way, Skoda uk are blowing smoke up your arse. This is a warranty repair not bad fuel. Fight them hard.
The way they presented that engine and parts post the removal of the head and conrods from the crank is appalling. Putting that poor workmanship aside.
The piston has suffered ring land failure and the lower piston rings have broken up as a result, that has created the damage to the bore. That's likely a fatigue issue which can be caused by a fault in the piston or a shock to the piston. You have a lot of carbon build up on one piston and another piston has been washed clean of its carbon. There is something that has gone seriously wrong there and is not water in fuel related IMHO.
You may have suffered a head gasket failure there with water leaking into the cylinder, make sure the head gasket is retained and get all the removed components stored properly, not chucked in like it's scrap.
That looks like a warranty claim to me, have you checked they got authorisation yet? If they are refusing a warranty claim, get an independent report done asap.
The piston has suffered ring land failure and the lower piston rings have broken up as a result, that has created the damage to the bore. That's likely a fatigue issue which can be caused by a fault in the piston or a shock to the piston. You have a lot of carbon build up on one piston and another piston has been washed clean of its carbon. There is something that has gone seriously wrong there and is not water in fuel related IMHO.
You may have suffered a head gasket failure there with water leaking into the cylinder, make sure the head gasket is retained and get all the removed components stored properly, not chucked in like it's scrap.
That looks like a warranty claim to me, have you checked they got authorisation yet? If they are refusing a warranty claim, get an independent report done asap.
520TORQUES said:
The way they presented that engine and parts post the removal of the head and conrods from the crank is appalling. Putting that poor workmanship aside.
The piston has suffered ring land failure and the lower piston rings have broken up as a result, that has created the damage to the bore. That's likely a fatigue issue which can be caused by a fault in the piston or a shock to the piston. You have a lot of carbon build up on one piston and another piston has been washed clean of its carbon. There is something that has gone seriously wrong there and is not water in fuel related IMHO.
You may have suffered a head gasket failure there with water leaking into the cylinder, make sure the head gasket is retained and get all the removed components stored properly, not chucked in like it's scrap.
That looks like a warranty claim to me, have you checked they got authorisation yet? If they are refusing a warranty claim, get an independent report done asap.
Much appreciate your comments. I am taking steps to 'get an independent report done asap' - regardless of what I say to them they are not taking any notice. The piston has suffered ring land failure and the lower piston rings have broken up as a result, that has created the damage to the bore. That's likely a fatigue issue which can be caused by a fault in the piston or a shock to the piston. You have a lot of carbon build up on one piston and another piston has been washed clean of its carbon. There is something that has gone seriously wrong there and is not water in fuel related IMHO.
You may have suffered a head gasket failure there with water leaking into the cylinder, make sure the head gasket is retained and get all the removed components stored properly, not chucked in like it's scrap.
That looks like a warranty claim to me, have you checked they got authorisation yet? If they are refusing a warranty claim, get an independent report done asap.
As you say the state the car is in a shocking mess! The whole engine bay is awash with petrol! Pools of petrol on the top of the engine.
Thanks to you and all other contributors.
Edited by EUbrainwashing on Wednesday 21st February 17:52
That is a piston failure, the ring land looks to have failed allowing oil up past and then this has burned onto the crown as high carbon deposits.
In the engine remanufactured magazine we used to get I used to read about a guy who dealt with this type of thing "expert witness" his name is Douglass Wragg.
Not sure if he is still with us, I can see him on linkedin but this is him
https://www.mgexp.com/member/Grenehurst.40601/
In the engine remanufactured magazine we used to get I used to read about a guy who dealt with this type of thing "expert witness" his name is Douglass Wragg.
Not sure if he is still with us, I can see him on linkedin but this is him
https://www.mgexp.com/member/Grenehurst.40601/
As others have said, don’t trust the dealer. From recent experience (not Skoda), dealers don’t understand the cars they sell and don’t like warranty work. They also make up all sorts of nonsense. In my case they agree my car has an issue and reset the gearbox….at least that’s what they said in writing. They state this hasn’t fixed the issue (again in writing) and ask for the car to be returned to be stripped for examination. During the second visit they reset the gearbox again and return it with the same issue they acknowledged in visit one! To be fair no cost to me but shows the level of numpty main dealers employ. I’m now off to another dealer.
My suggestion. Locate the email addresses of any senior Skoda UK staff (country manager etc) and write to them with your situation. I suspect you’d get further than with the dealer.
My suggestion. Locate the email addresses of any senior Skoda UK staff (country manager etc) and write to them with your situation. I suspect you’d get further than with the dealer.
@EUBrainwashing I was sat there reading through your experience last night, nodding my head and saying yes. I've had a remarkably similar experience to yourself and am feeling your pain.
I bought a brand new Hyundai Bayon at the end of last year, it broke down 6 days and 250 miles later after being filled with fuel once. It was towed back to my local Hyundai dealer, different to the one I bought it from and they diagnosed a blown fuel injector caused by diesel in the petrol system. I was charged £1,250 to get it cleaned out, repaired and back on the road and obviously not covered under warranty. I knew I hadn't put any diesel in and I knew the fuel wasn't contaminated as I was the only one effected and only after 250 miles.
I sent my fuel off for analysis and as expected it has come back showing no diesel present, it did show 0.29% water, which I'm led to believe by everybody is of no consequence what so ever and is to be naturally expected.
The repairing dealer has now changed their story now they have seen my fuel analysis and are saying contaminated fuel with water and ignoring the fact that they ever said it was diesel. They are still refusing to put it through as warranty work and we are about to go to court to settle things.
I hope you sort your troubles out, your engine looks a right mess, hopefully it sounds like you may be covered by your insurance for this, I hope you are.
I've been posting my experiences dealing with everybody on the Money Saving Experts forum, if you or anybody else are interested in reading my tale of woe you can read it by searching for "Rejecting new car due to dealer misfuel"
I bought a brand new Hyundai Bayon at the end of last year, it broke down 6 days and 250 miles later after being filled with fuel once. It was towed back to my local Hyundai dealer, different to the one I bought it from and they diagnosed a blown fuel injector caused by diesel in the petrol system. I was charged £1,250 to get it cleaned out, repaired and back on the road and obviously not covered under warranty. I knew I hadn't put any diesel in and I knew the fuel wasn't contaminated as I was the only one effected and only after 250 miles.
I sent my fuel off for analysis and as expected it has come back showing no diesel present, it did show 0.29% water, which I'm led to believe by everybody is of no consequence what so ever and is to be naturally expected.
The repairing dealer has now changed their story now they have seen my fuel analysis and are saying contaminated fuel with water and ignoring the fact that they ever said it was diesel. They are still refusing to put it through as warranty work and we are about to go to court to settle things.
I hope you sort your troubles out, your engine looks a right mess, hopefully it sounds like you may be covered by your insurance for this, I hope you are.
I've been posting my experiences dealing with everybody on the Money Saving Experts forum, if you or anybody else are interested in reading my tale of woe you can read it by searching for "Rejecting new car due to dealer misfuel"
Edited by 99iainb on Sunday 3rd March 12:29
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