What Engine for 500BHP

[turbonutter]

Pumaracing said:

Without seeing a photo that isn't so close up I can't quite envisage how the parts fit together to cause this problem but I suspect the proper solution is to have the bolt holes recessed slightly so the bolt heads seat lower down.

Here is the full flywheel.



There isnt a whole lot of thickness in the flywheel where it bolts to the crank, but there is a washer under all the bolts that is 1.3mm thick, not really sure if this is essential or not?? if not, then it could be replaced by individual washers of only 1mm thick, or no washers at all, which would solve the problem...

[stevieturbo]

I've seen flywheels with a spacer like that under the bolts, no idea why though, as most dont have it.

Most flywheels dont have such a thing, so I dont think I'd have any concerns about removing it. And for sure you need a lot more than 0.1mm clearance based on the damage.

I assume it's a steel flywheel ?

Bolt size/thread ? Do ARP offer anything ?

[anonymous-user]

I had the same (bolt head) issue on the flywheel on my car, and just ground down the head of the bolts. if you work out the area's you can take a fair bit off the heads without increasing max stress, and in fact, the limiting factor is having enough "flat" to get a socket to sit on them. (i also turned the end off a socket to ensure i had fully engagement, as std sockets can have 2mm of internal radius on them) You can certainly easily get 1mm extra space!

(mines a carbon clutch, so max-wear is two shades of nothing, so i didn't need much extra clearance)

[Pumaracing]

turbonutter said:

There isnt a whole lot of thickness in the flywheel where it bolts to the crank, but there is a washer under all the bolts that is 1.3mm thick,

I have never seen a modern flywheel bolt with a washer under it. They are loctited in place and should bear directly on the flywheel. Problem solved. In fact unless the material being bolted is soft, like aluminium, flat washers serve no purpose anyway and make the bolt more likely to loosen than otherwise.

[turbonutter]

Thanks for all the replies,

Flywheel is steel & I was also wondering if the washer was needed... its an OEM part sold by alfa as a securing plate.
I also enquired on an alfa forum and it apears that some variants of the v6 have the washer and some dont...
As stated above, the bolts are fitted with thread lock, so it seems the solution is simple - just bin the washer

The initial fit of the clutch had no contact to the bolts & the clutch is only worn down 0.1mm, so I wasnt expecting contact... ok the contact was worse due to the plate being the wrong way round, but even so it had contacted the bolts when it was the right way round...

Another lesson learned!

[turbonutter]

Ok so last week I got the engine back in the car with a new clutch. All good so far, the clutch is much nicer to use than it has been for a long time, so well worth changing it. Been out on the road for 100 miles now and no issues - no more cutting of the engine since I changed the overboost parameter, so I am happy again
I want to play with the boost control, so if the weather forecast is good I will be at Blyton on the 10th Oct...

[Evoluzione]

The large metal washer is used on quite a few Fiat group engines and has been for years, on the ones I have seen it holds the loose spigot in place.

[turbonutter]

Evoluzione said:

The large metal washer is used on quite a few Fiat group engines and has been for years, on the ones I have seen it holds the loose spigot in place.

I have temoved the washer, as on my engine its just a washer, its not serving any other purpose or holding anything in place...

[Evoluzione]

turbonutter said:

Evoluzione said:

The large metal washer is used on quite a few Fiat group engines and has been for years, on the ones I have seen it holds the loose spigot in place.

I have temoved the washer, as on my engine its just a washer, its not serving any other purpose or holding anything in place...

Yes I can see in your pic it doesn't do that, I do wonder why they fitted them though...

[turbonutter]

Evoluzione said:

turbonutter said:

Evoluzione said:

The large metal washer is used on quite a few Fiat group engines and has been for years, on the ones I have seen it holds the loose spigot in place.

I have temoved the washer, as on my engine its just a washer, its not serving any other purpose or holding anything in place...

Yes I can see in your pic it doesn't do that, I do wonder why they fitted them though...

Talking to a guy that has done quite a bit of work on the Alfa V6 engines, he told me that some variants have the washer and some dont, but that there is no logic or method as to which ones or why they are fitted to a particular engine.

[Pumaracing]

The only other engines I've seen with anything similar are really old British stuff like the MGB which had a single washer for all six bolts with lock tabs sticking out which you hammered up against the flats of the bolt heads after tightening them. Other engines of the same vintage like early Fords managed perfectly happily without such things as has everything since. As I said before, completely unnecessary with loctite and proper tightening.

[turbonutter]

Ok decided against the track day on Saturday, the plan now is to do a proper test day next Tuesday. Much better than trying to test during a track day !

[turbonutter]

Well for a change I can post about a successful day at a track, rather than the usual disaster I seem to have been having recently.

Testing at Blyton on tuesday went really well, We had done some preliminary tweaks to the Boost control & Traction control before going & spent the day fine tuning both..

First off the track was wet, but that was ideal for testing the traction control, we started using Ignition retard & cut & fuel cut to reduce the torque, which worked well, but later added in DBW control for the torque as well, the DBW torque reduction worked really well, so that is now the first operate, with the Fuel and ignition cuts helping out if the slip gets to far off target. It works really well, nice and smooth & the cant feel it operating...

Boost control is also nicely setup now and follows the target wery well, and we set it so that the boost reduces as throttle reduces & also gear by gear.A big reduction in boost in first gear to look after the CV joints, the mid range boost increasing as you change to higher gears.

Many other tweaks were done during the day as well, including soring out the over run fuel, as it wasnt cutting propperly & producing huge flame... The flame is still there on gear change, but a much more subtle one, as seen below.



Overall I'm very happy with the results & the capabilities of the ECU and the way the car is running


Of course nothing is ever perfect & I see now that the Oil temperature is getting to hot 135-140C, so the laminova cooler is not eficient enough & one of my EGT sensors has failed, but thats not a big deal..

[stevieturbo]

Considering the work and changes, that all sounds very positive.

And leave that fuel cut the way it is

[turbonutter]

stevieturbo said:

Considering the work and changes, that all sounds very positive.

And leave that fuel cut the way it is

Thanks & Yes it is very positive, hopefully I can just drive the car for a while now

When we looked at the over run fuel cut, we had forgot to tick the box to activate it, hence when it all got nice and hot there was a HUGE flame, The flame you see in the photo above is with all fuel cut on the over run, but there is obviously enough left over somewhere to make a nice flame ;)

Just been looking at the Oil temperature that was logged & it maxed out at 126C, so there is a difference of 10C between the ECU sensor and my dash gauge - maybe it wasnt as bad as i thought...

Edited by turbonutter on Thursday 15th October 18:24

[stevieturbo]

turbonutter said:

Thanks & Yes it is very positive, hopefully I can just drive the car for a while now

When we looked at the over run fuel cut, we had forgot to tick the box to activate it, hence when it all got nice and hot there was a HUGE flame, The flame you see in the photo above is with all fuel cut on the over run, but there is obviously enough left over somewhere to make a nice flame ;)

Just been looking at the Oil temperature that was logged & it maxed out at 126C, so there is a difference of 10C between the ECU sensor and my dash gauge - maybe it wasnt as bad as i thought...

Edited by turbonutter on Thursday 15th October 18:24

I'd probably trust the ecu reading if it's using a proper 2 wire sensor, than some of the sensors you get with cheap temperature gauges ( not saying it is cheap...but a lot are lol )

But it would be handy if you could test the temp reading.

That said, the 130+ you mentioned did seem unusually high. I've never seen more than 110degC on my own since I started monitoring temps all this year

[turbonutter]

stevieturbo said:

I'd probably trust the ecu reading if it's using a proper 2 wire sensor, than some of the sensors you get with cheap temperature gauges ( not saying it is cheap...but a lot are lol )

But it would be handy if you could test the temp reading.

That said, the 130+ you mentioned did seem unusually high. I've never seen more than 110degC on my own since I started monitoring temps all this year

Its a KA Sensors NTC1 2 wire sensor (brand new) wired to the ECU 'vs' a Stack sensor and Gauge.. I am planning to test both sensors when I get chance, but its a bit of a pain to get at them.
Driving on the road today, the oil temp was max 106C (ecu temp)

[turbonutter]

Just a thought - both my sensors are measuring the oil temperature as it comes from the pump, so before the cooler. Is that the normal place to measure? Obviously it wont be so hot if measured after the cooler.
Where is the temperature measured normally????

[Liquid Knight]

turbonutter said:

Just a thought - both my sensors are measuring the oil temperature as it comes from the pump, so before the cooler. Is that the normal place to measure? Obviously it wont be so hot if measured after the cooler.
Where is the temperature measured normally????

Before and after the cooler to see how efficient it is.

My sensor was on the filter holder.

[anonymous-user]

The point where oil temp actually matters is it's temp when it's in the bearing surfaces under pressure, anywhere else is largely irrelevant.

However, as that's pretty difficult to measure (and i've come up with some pretty complex ways over the years to measure it (and dynamic bearing film pressure too, but that's another story.....) i'd settle for measuring the oil temp at the primary inlet to the block, after any coolers / filters etc.

Then you get to the issue of what is "too hot", which is highly complex. However, with modern synthetic oils (rather than something we used to get from whales (no, not that wet/mountainy/coal minerish place just East over the Severn Bridge!)) the high temp limits are usually a life issue rather than a pure lubricity one, as they control their density / viscosity vs temperature well.


As a somewhat arbitrary rule of thumb, for a modern synthetic oil, i'd aim to keep continuous operating temperatures below the following values (intermittent values can i'd suggest be a max of 10% higher)

Bulk oil temp in sump: 150degC
Engine oil gallery inlet: 130degC