zetec tuning costs?
Discussion
hi,
am thinking of building a zetec elan+2 and am trying to work out how much this will cost.
i'd want to use a new engine, have seen them for about £700 but i don't have a clue about tuning costs.
i'd like over 200bhp but still driveable in traffic and around town. to this end i think a superchargee may be the way to go and have seen these [vortech] for $3000, so about £1700 after duties etc. the website for this says:
The Stage 2 kit consists of a 8.5 psi supercharger pulley, a new serpentine belt and customized programming for your FocusSport/SCT chip, XCalibrator1, or XCalibrator2 flasher. Used with a FocusSport Race Header you can see up to a 65% increase in horsepower and 35% increase in torque measured at the wheels on 91 octane
the accompanying power curves show peaks of 180bhp and 160 ft-lbs
firstly, how much would i be looking to pay for this fitted? i take it the compression needs altering and a UK spec ECU.
secondly, what other tuning work would you suggest and how much would it cost?
bearing in mind it is likely to be tuned quite a bit would it be better to start with a short engine?
lastly, are there any 6 speed 'boxes that are compatable with the zetec and rwd?
cheers,
phil.
am thinking of building a zetec elan+2 and am trying to work out how much this will cost.
i'd want to use a new engine, have seen them for about £700 but i don't have a clue about tuning costs.
i'd like over 200bhp but still driveable in traffic and around town. to this end i think a superchargee may be the way to go and have seen these [vortech] for $3000, so about £1700 after duties etc. the website for this says:
The Stage 2 kit consists of a 8.5 psi supercharger pulley, a new serpentine belt and customized programming for your FocusSport/SCT chip, XCalibrator1, or XCalibrator2 flasher. Used with a FocusSport Race Header you can see up to a 65% increase in horsepower and 35% increase in torque measured at the wheels on 91 octane
the accompanying power curves show peaks of 180bhp and 160 ft-lbs
firstly, how much would i be looking to pay for this fitted? i take it the compression needs altering and a UK spec ECU.
secondly, what other tuning work would you suggest and how much would it cost?
bearing in mind it is likely to be tuned quite a bit would it be better to start with a short engine?
lastly, are there any 6 speed 'boxes that are compatable with the zetec and rwd?
cheers,
phil.
Phil, first off, congrats on what sounds like a storming project.
With supercharging, I've done it to a BMW E46 with a US sourced kit, and found it to be a very easy thing to do. I'd go as far as to say that if you're capable if changing a clutch or a head, you could do it yourself. Best of all, there is no actual engine perimiter break in. It's bolt on stuff.
I used this kit:
http://www.koperformance.com/BMW/turbo_supercharge...
onto a 325ci and it's bloody storming. I didn't bother balancing or flowing the engine internally, it was just straight onto a 45k mile engine. No problems with it, and it took me 3 days to fit it, with mucho tea breaks and mates over to see it all etc. Power output now in the 335 range I'd imagine, as it keeps up with those. The only other thing I'd like to do is put a chargecooler onto it, but I measure intake temps and living in the cold wet north means these are usually pretty low anyways. It's only 6psi of boost in any case.
I paid to have it all checked by a local BMW specialist who also checked the fuelling etc as well as the quality of the fit.
All I can say is, with the £ against the $ as strong now as it was when I did it, you'd be mad not to.
Good luck.
With supercharging, I've done it to a BMW E46 with a US sourced kit, and found it to be a very easy thing to do. I'd go as far as to say that if you're capable if changing a clutch or a head, you could do it yourself. Best of all, there is no actual engine perimiter break in. It's bolt on stuff.
I used this kit:
http://www.koperformance.com/BMW/turbo_supercharge...
onto a 325ci and it's bloody storming. I didn't bother balancing or flowing the engine internally, it was just straight onto a 45k mile engine. No problems with it, and it took me 3 days to fit it, with mucho tea breaks and mates over to see it all etc. Power output now in the 335 range I'd imagine, as it keeps up with those. The only other thing I'd like to do is put a chargecooler onto it, but I measure intake temps and living in the cold wet north means these are usually pretty low anyways. It's only 6psi of boost in any case.
I paid to have it all checked by a local BMW specialist who also checked the fuelling etc as well as the quality of the fit.
All I can say is, with the £ against the $ as strong now as it was when I did it, you'd be mad not to.
Good luck.
cheers for the encouragement, though it will be at least 6mths before i have the time/money available and i need to find a garage to work in!
do you not need to alter the compression ratio when fitting a 'charger? i know with the kit for the vx220 you have to fit a spacing plate between the head and block.
yeah i would want to fit a charge cooler etc. and would have it flowed and tuned by a reputable builder before doing the bolt-on stuff myself. been yearning to do this for ages so it'll be done 'right' with silicone hoses and as much cooling as poss. to make it ultra reliable. same ethos with the chassis too.
another couple of questions:
the 180bhp figure quoted is made using 91RON unleaded. what would it be using 98RON? if over 200bhp then i think this might be much easier than i first thought.
i read that when developing over 200bhp then the engine internals need beefing up to forged pistons and steel rods. can anyone point me towards a site that stock these so i can price up? vulcan is the only tuner that springs to mind but they don't have much zetec info. on their site.
cheers,
phil.
do you not need to alter the compression ratio when fitting a 'charger? i know with the kit for the vx220 you have to fit a spacing plate between the head and block.
yeah i would want to fit a charge cooler etc. and would have it flowed and tuned by a reputable builder before doing the bolt-on stuff myself. been yearning to do this for ages so it'll be done 'right' with silicone hoses and as much cooling as poss. to make it ultra reliable. same ethos with the chassis too.
another couple of questions:
the 180bhp figure quoted is made using 91RON unleaded. what would it be using 98RON? if over 200bhp then i think this might be much easier than i first thought.
i read that when developing over 200bhp then the engine internals need beefing up to forged pistons and steel rods. can anyone point me towards a site that stock these so i can price up? vulcan is the only tuner that springs to mind but they don't have much zetec info. on their site.
cheers,
phil.
shirt said:
cheers for the encouragement, though it will be at least 6mths before i have the time/money available and i need to find a garage to work in!
do you not need to alter the compression ratio when fitting a 'charger? i know with the kit for the vx220 you have to fit a spacing plate between the head and block.
yeah i would want to fit a charge cooler etc. and would have it flowed and tuned by a reputable builder before doing the bolt-on stuff myself. been yearning to do this for ages so it'll be done 'right' with silicone hoses and as much cooling as poss. to make it ultra reliable. same ethos with the chassis too.
another couple of questions:
the 180bhp figure quoted is made using 91RON unleaded. what would it be using 98RON? if over 200bhp then i think this might be much easier than i first thought.
i read that when developing over 200bhp then the engine internals need beefing up to forged pistons and steel rods. can anyone point me towards a site that stock these so i can price up? vulcan is the only tuner that springs to mind but they don't have much zetec info. on their site.
cheers,
phil.
You've had an offer from Boosted', so I'd start there!do you not need to alter the compression ratio when fitting a 'charger? i know with the kit for the vx220 you have to fit a spacing plate between the head and block.
yeah i would want to fit a charge cooler etc. and would have it flowed and tuned by a reputable builder before doing the bolt-on stuff myself. been yearning to do this for ages so it'll be done 'right' with silicone hoses and as much cooling as poss. to make it ultra reliable. same ethos with the chassis too.
another couple of questions:
the 180bhp figure quoted is made using 91RON unleaded. what would it be using 98RON? if over 200bhp then i think this might be much easier than i first thought.
i read that when developing over 200bhp then the engine internals need beefing up to forged pistons and steel rods. can anyone point me towards a site that stock these so i can price up? vulcan is the only tuner that springs to mind but they don't have much zetec info. on their site.
cheers,
phil.
My thoughts? As well as Mike, maybe have a chat with guys who know that engine inside out as well - Mountune is the name that comes to mind. That will tell you if you need to change rods/pistons etc for what power level your going to.
FWIW, about 3 years ago I had a set of rods made in the US, and it was literally a third of the price I could source them in the UK. Food for thought.
As with compresion ratios, the rule of thumb is that most stock N/A engines will take 6psi as long as the fuelling is right. Higher that that, don't forget the old trick of using a custom, or even two, cylinder head gaskets (I've used the second one before) to lower the C/R. Rip me to shreds if you like, but it worked. That was on a Clibra turbo engine I put in a mates Nova, many years ago, where the boost had been upped.
As for workspace, pity you weren't nearer, I have a big D/G separate from the house with light/power/water etc, we could have sorted something.
Have fun with the build
Boosted LS1 said:
I build the occasional zetec for forced induction, my site may be useful. HTH.
it certainly is and has been bookmarked for future reference! 
off topic, but looking at some of the manifold you make up, would thin wall casting be of any use in your line of work? wesbite is a bit ropey but the case studies i've seen in terms of weight reduction are in the magnitude 30-50% dep. on application.
http://smartlite.nl/en/home.html
Chainguy said:
You've had an offer from Boosted', so I'd start there!
My thoughts? As well as Mike, maybe have a chat with guys who know that engine inside out as well - Mountune is the name that comes to mind. That will tell you if you need to change rods/pistons etc for what power level your going to.
FWIW, about 3 years ago I had a set of rods made in the US, and it was literally a third of the price I could source them in the UK. Food for thought.
As with compresion ratios, the rule of thumb is that most stock N/A engines will take 6psi as long as the fuelling is right. Higher that that, don't forget the old trick of using a custom, or even two, cylinder head gaskets (I've used the second one before) to lower the C/R. Rip me to shreds if you like, but it worked. That was on a Clibra turbo engine I put in a mates Nova, many years ago, where the boost had been upped.
As for workspace, pity you weren't nearer, I have a big D/G separate from the house with light/power/water etc, we could have sorted something.
Have fun with the build
mountune = interesting but verrry pricey! might be a bit hardcore for an elan as well. My thoughts? As well as Mike, maybe have a chat with guys who know that engine inside out as well - Mountune is the name that comes to mind. That will tell you if you need to change rods/pistons etc for what power level your going to.
FWIW, about 3 years ago I had a set of rods made in the US, and it was literally a third of the price I could source them in the UK. Food for thought.
As with compresion ratios, the rule of thumb is that most stock N/A engines will take 6psi as long as the fuelling is right. Higher that that, don't forget the old trick of using a custom, or even two, cylinder head gaskets (I've used the second one before) to lower the C/R. Rip me to shreds if you like, but it worked. That was on a Clibra turbo engine I put in a mates Nova, many years ago, where the boost had been upped.
As for workspace, pity you weren't nearer, I have a big D/G separate from the house with light/power/water etc, we could have sorted something.
Have fun with the build
who knows where i'll be in 6mths. if its up your way i may well take you upo on the offer
Phil,
Doesn't exactly answer your question, but our threads may be of interest to each other:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Mine's currently 200bhp NA (Piper 285 cams, headwork, Jenvey throttle bodies, Emerald ECU). Cost about €4.5k inc. labour iirc (that included a new engine from Ford).
Now looking for circa 300bhp with blower. Don't know what internals need to be done yet.
Doesn't exactly answer your question, but our threads may be of interest to each other:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Mine's currently 200bhp NA (Piper 285 cams, headwork, Jenvey throttle bodies, Emerald ECU). Cost about €4.5k inc. labour iirc (that included a new engine from Ford).
Now looking for circa 300bhp with blower. Don't know what internals need to be done yet.
Edited by LotusNova on Sunday 20th July 08:32
shirt said:
Boosted LS1 said:
I build the occasional zetec for forced induction, my site may be useful. HTH.
it certainly is and has been bookmarked for future reference! off topic, but looking at some of the manifold you make up, would thin wall casting be of any use in your line of work? wesbite is a bit ropey but the case studies i've seen in terms of weight reduction are in the magnitude 30-50% dep. on application.
http://smartlite.nl/en/home.html
shirt said:
Chainguy said:
You've had an offer from Boosted', so I'd start there!
My thoughts? As well as Mike, maybe have a chat with guys who know that engine inside out as well - Mountune is the name that comes to mind. That will tell you if you need to change rods/pistons etc for what power level your going to.
FWIW, about 3 years ago I had a set of rods made in the US, and it was literally a third of the price I could source them in the UK. Food for thought.
As with compresion ratios, the rule of thumb is that most stock N/A engines will take 6psi as long as the fuelling is right. Higher that that, don't forget the old trick of using a custom, or even two, cylinder head gaskets (I've used the second one before) to lower the C/R. Rip me to shreds if you like, but it worked. That was on a Clibra turbo engine I put in a mates Nova, many years ago, where the boost had been upped.
As for workspace, pity you weren't nearer, I have a big D/G separate from the house with light/power/water etc, we could have sorted something.
Have fun with the build
mountune = interesting but verrry pricey! might be a bit hardcore for an elan as well. My thoughts? As well as Mike, maybe have a chat with guys who know that engine inside out as well - Mountune is the name that comes to mind. That will tell you if you need to change rods/pistons etc for what power level your going to.
FWIW, about 3 years ago I had a set of rods made in the US, and it was literally a third of the price I could source them in the UK. Food for thought.
As with compresion ratios, the rule of thumb is that most stock N/A engines will take 6psi as long as the fuelling is right. Higher that that, don't forget the old trick of using a custom, or even two, cylinder head gaskets (I've used the second one before) to lower the C/R. Rip me to shreds if you like, but it worked. That was on a Clibra turbo engine I put in a mates Nova, many years ago, where the boost had been upped.
As for workspace, pity you weren't nearer, I have a big D/G separate from the house with light/power/water etc, we could have sorted something.
Have fun with the build
who knows where i'll be in 6mths. if its up your way i may well take you upo on the offer
Since I read this thread, I've been asking around some mates still in the trade, and they all feel that the Zetec is a fairly strong engine internally, and if it's been serviced right can do big miles. General opinion was you could get a blower straight onto one, 6psi, and you'd be fine.
Making me want to start another project now actually. Blower a V block BMW engine and stick it in an 3 series. Something silly like that.
Hmmm,
For future reference, a twin-screw type may not be the best in this situation. Had replies from Whipple & Kenne Bell today, both along the lines of <cough> we don't have a compressor for an engine that small. Not totally unexpected from U.S. manufacturers
.
Still chasing up the original (Lysholm in Sweden) who apparently may have something that fits.
For future reference, a twin-screw type may not be the best in this situation. Had replies from Whipple & Kenne Bell today, both along the lines of <cough> we don't have a compressor for an engine that small. Not totally unexpected from U.S. manufacturers
.Still chasing up the original (Lysholm in Sweden) who apparently may have something that fits.
My Westfield with a Black top zetec, standard other than jenveys and an Emerald ecu and obviously a westie exhaust made 185bhp on Dave Walkers rollers.They are considered the better engine for non-hydraulic followers and better head design and valves slightly larger as standard. This may keep the costs down a bit for the engine front,as to get 200bhp can probably be done with a set of cams.With a charger,you should be able to get well over 270bhp
Boosted LS1 said:
shirt said:
Boosted LS1 said:
I build the occasional zetec for forced induction, my site may be useful. HTH.
it certainly is and has been bookmarked for future reference! off topic, but looking at some of the manifold you make up, would thin wall casting be of any use in your line of work? wesbite is a bit ropey but the case studies i've seen in terms of weight reduction are in the magnitude 30-50% dep. on application.
http://smartlite.nl/en/home.html
LotusNova said:
Phil,
Doesn't exactly answer your question, but our threads may be of interest to each other:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Mine's currently 200bhp NA (Piper 285 cams, headwork, Jenvey throttle bodies, Emerald ECU). Cost about €4.5k inc. labour iirc (that included a new engine from Ford).
Now looking for circa 300bhp with blower. Don't know what internals need to be done yet.
and:
For future reference, a twin-screw type may not be the best in this situation. Had replies from Whipple & Kenne Bell today, both along the lines of <cough> we don't have a compressor for an engine that small. Not totally unexpected from U.S. manufacturers .
Still chasing up the original (Lysholm in Sweden) who apparently may have something that fits.
forgot about the ford thread. duh!Doesn't exactly answer your question, but our threads may be of interest to each other:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Mine's currently 200bhp NA (Piper 285 cams, headwork, Jenvey throttle bodies, Emerald ECU). Cost about €4.5k inc. labour iirc (that included a new engine from Ford).
Now looking for circa 300bhp with blower. Don't know what internals need to be done yet.
and:
For future reference, a twin-screw type may not be the best in this situation. Had replies from Whipple & Kenne Bell today, both along the lines of <cough> we don't have a compressor for an engine that small. Not totally unexpected from U.S. manufacturers .
Still chasing up the original (Lysholm in Sweden) who apparently may have something that fits.
interesting project you have going on, though €4.5k for 200bhp is a little steep for what i'm planning. I think I'd be happy around 250bhp all up usig a blower, as that should give me around 310bhp/ton in the elan. i want to be spending about £10-12k in total and that has to include a new chassis and donor car.
am with you re: the preference for a screw-type charger, would be interested to know how you get on. i have seen threads on US forums relating to them, but nothing on the websites they refer to. The vortech centrtigugal kit at £1500 for a bolt on kit is still v attractive though.
out of curiousity nova, where are you based?
Justin S said:
My Westfield with a Black top zetec, standard other than jenveys and an Emerald ecu and obviously a westie exhaust made 185bhp on Dave Walkers rollers.They are considered the better engine for non-hydraulic followers and better head design and valves slightly larger as standard. This may keep the costs down a bit for the engine front,as to get 200bhp can probably be done with a set of cams.With a charger,you should be able to get well over 270bhp
hey justin. out of interest, how much do you reckon you've spent on your engine to date? i don't suppose you could post a power/torque curve could you?remember reading dave walker's column in cars & car conversions. seemed a top bloke
shirt said:
interesting project you have going on...am with you re: the preference for a screw-type charger, would be interested to know how you get on...out of curiousity nova, where are you based?
Thanks. For the screw type, I'm currently chasing Lysholm but they are closed for their annual holiday. I'll give them another call in a couple of weeks. I've heard they are very well made inside (plus they invented this type) so fingers crossed. If I strike out there, next on the list are: Autorotor, PSI, Ingersoll-Rand, Kobelco & Sprintex.
I looked at the Vortech, but decided against it for mine as it's a centrifugal type hence gives more boost at high revs than at low (ie. similar to a turbo, albeit without the lag). The twin screw has a linear boost curve - easier to drive and kinder to the transmission. That's just personal preference though.
W.r.t. the engine, I'm told I'll have to change to forged pistons for 300bhp, but con rods & bottom end should be fine as standard. Don't know if you'd need to upgrade the pistons for 250 though (Boosted would know that).
I'm based near Orléans in France. There's no real market for engine upgrades in France (the paperwork to get cars with modified engines on the road here is a nightmare) hence there are no experts that do it. I don't have the time or space to do this myself (currently up to my neck in sculpting bodywork), so I'll have to ship the engine to the U.K. to get the work done.
Good luck with your project.
Edited by LotusNova on Thursday 24th July 06:43
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