Sintered ceramic metallic vs organic on normal car?
Discussion
Anyone have a 'normal' car that they have fitted one to?
I've read on fairly sporty cars with heavy agressive clutches already, they can be too harsh and jerky etc, but what about a normal shopping trolley car?
Just curious on others experiences if they have used one on a tuned up 'normal' car, where the clutches are already super light, super soft and friendly...
Cheers
Dave
I've read on fairly sporty cars with heavy agressive clutches already, they can be too harsh and jerky etc, but what about a normal shopping trolley car?
Just curious on others experiences if they have used one on a tuned up 'normal' car, where the clutches are already super light, super soft and friendly...
Cheers
Dave
Some good, some bad, and a lot depends on the driver etc.
Some people cant even drive a perfectly normal clutch, let alone a scintered.
Only way to know if its for you, is to find one and drive it. But if it was a genuine daily driver, I'd be avoiding one, unless it has been proven to be very user friendly.
Some people cant even drive a perfectly normal clutch, let alone a scintered.
Only way to know if its for you, is to find one and drive it. But if it was a genuine daily driver, I'd be avoiding one, unless it has been proven to be very user friendly.
Depends on the engine, flywheel weight, drivetrain, etc, Dave.
I had a sintered clutch on the 306 but with the flywheel on mine being featherlight and it being a small engine it tended to grab rather than slip, however - it was an unsprung plate, which doesn't help.
Same on the rally cars, very grabby at low speeds - the cars chatter creeping along out of junctions.
I've since switched to a kevlar plate instead, which is better on the road.
On the other hand, carbon/carbon clutches are quite smooth....
I had a sintered clutch on the 306 but with the flywheel on mine being featherlight and it being a small engine it tended to grab rather than slip, however - it was an unsprung plate, which doesn't help.
Same on the rally cars, very grabby at low speeds - the cars chatter creeping along out of junctions.
I've since switched to a kevlar plate instead, which is better on the road.
On the other hand, carbon/carbon clutches are quite smooth....
Edited by PhillipM on Tuesday 23 September 21:38
Ah ok, guess I'll just have to wait till it's in and see 
It's a Sachs one for my car, it was fairly expensive, pretty sure it's a sprung centre with full face friction (no paddle type), so hopefully the best of the worst, if that makes sense.
Currently the clutch is slipping from 1800rpm > 3200rpm in any gear from about half throttle, so clearly my standard clutch won't cut it... just fitted all my intercooler and put on a hefty remap file.
I think a better pressure plate was probably a better way to go, but apparently the cable can take more strain (not good in a Peugeot), sourcing one is hard (not seen anything), and the pedal might be heavier too...
Will report back just fyi next week once it's all bunged on and turned up more. Just hoping it doesn't make me look like a learner driver when setting off
Not fussed about the rattle noise, it's a Peugeot, it'll blend in
Dave
It's a Sachs one for my car, it was fairly expensive, pretty sure it's a sprung centre with full face friction (no paddle type), so hopefully the best of the worst, if that makes sense.
Currently the clutch is slipping from 1800rpm > 3200rpm in any gear from about half throttle, so clearly my standard clutch won't cut it... just fitted all my intercooler and put on a hefty remap file.
I think a better pressure plate was probably a better way to go, but apparently the cable can take more strain (not good in a Peugeot), sourcing one is hard (not seen anything), and the pedal might be heavier too...
Will report back just fyi next week once it's all bunged on and turned up more. Just hoping it doesn't make me look like a learner driver when setting off
Not fussed about the rattle noise, it's a Peugeot, it'll blend in
Dave
Had a 6 puck metalic clutch on my old MR2 Turbo, was good, passengers hated it saying it felt like an on/ off switch, lots of slaming heads off headrests. You don't notice that sort of thing when driving, but you need to be practiced to pull off without stalling, you also get used to not creaping along in traffic, rather leaving big gaps as else you spend your time releasing the clutch and slamming on the brakes immediately.
Organic one from the same manufacture on my MX5 Turbo and its a much softer clutch, however still sharp, sharp but not vicious i.e. the Mrs stalled it 4 times pulling the car out of the garage last time she had a go, the MR2 she wouldn't even bother trying to move.
P.s. how much power? Under 300bhp organic should be fine, my Spec Stage 2 Organic on the mx5 copes fine 250bhp/220lbs.
Organic one from the same manufacture on my MX5 Turbo and its a much softer clutch, however still sharp, sharp but not vicious i.e. the Mrs stalled it 4 times pulling the car out of the garage last time she had a go, the MR2 she wouldn't even bother trying to move.
P.s. how much power? Under 300bhp organic should be fine, my Spec Stage 2 Organic on the mx5 copes fine 250bhp/220lbs.
Edited by Herman Toothrot on Wednesday 24th September 17:31
It's 160bhp tops at 4000rpm ish, but it's looking at over 275lbft at 2250rpm, from standard outputs of 90bhp/165lbft...
I think the main problem is Peugeot, when they did my clutch 35,000 miles ago, fitted a cheap part, as it was Peugeot *Express, not Peugeot proper (the quotes were £200 different)
But, a friend running a very similar setup, brand new OEM clutch, said his was ok, but the high torque at motorway acceleration speeds (ie, through peak torque very slowly with lots of load), would cause it to overheat and start slipping, and that was at about 240-250lbft...
I think maybe it is a bit overkill, but there just are not many uprated clutches out there for these cars, well, the one I had is the only uprated plate I could find at all, and it's coming in from Sachs in Germany...
Time will tell anyway, it should be going on this Tuesday. Like I said though, it's already a super nice clutch in standard form, so even if it's twice as bad it'll still be pretty acceptable imho... I'll just have to drive it a little more knowingly, if that makes sense. Less of that half way house, and either in or out...
Just considering also that the labour to get a clutch in/out is expensive (my brother is doing it for some beer tokens), that fitting an OE friction plate (that I have) only to find it slip, it's another load of beer tokens and time to then get another clutch plate and fit it etc... thought I'd just skip that step which is probably going to happen and just get a high friction clutch...
Fingers crossed
Dave
I think the main problem is Peugeot, when they did my clutch 35,000 miles ago, fitted a cheap part, as it was Peugeot *Express, not Peugeot proper (the quotes were £200 different)
But, a friend running a very similar setup, brand new OEM clutch, said his was ok, but the high torque at motorway acceleration speeds (ie, through peak torque very slowly with lots of load), would cause it to overheat and start slipping, and that was at about 240-250lbft...
I think maybe it is a bit overkill, but there just are not many uprated clutches out there for these cars, well, the one I had is the only uprated plate I could find at all, and it's coming in from Sachs in Germany...
Time will tell anyway, it should be going on this Tuesday. Like I said though, it's already a super nice clutch in standard form, so even if it's twice as bad it'll still be pretty acceptable imho... I'll just have to drive it a little more knowingly, if that makes sense. Less of that half way house, and either in or out...
Just considering also that the labour to get a clutch in/out is expensive (my brother is doing it for some beer tokens), that fitting an OE friction plate (that I have) only to find it slip, it's another load of beer tokens and time to then get another clutch plate and fit it etc... thought I'd just skip that step which is probably going to happen and just get a high friction clutch...
Fingers crossed
Dave
I think the one I am getting is the sintered metallic one here...
http://www.sachsperformance.com/EU/sachs-race-perf...
Just curious, if anyone knows that is, how a normal organic can be significantly better just on it's own, without more clamping pressure? Can the coeffs of friction be a fair bit higher on a 'better' organic plate?
I wonder why my supplier didn't mention Sachs do an uprated organic too... considering it's actually more expensive too it's not like they wanted to sell the fancier one
Might give them a bell at lunch time
Dave
http://www.sachsperformance.com/EU/sachs-race-perf...
Just curious, if anyone knows that is, how a normal organic can be significantly better just on it's own, without more clamping pressure? Can the coeffs of friction be a fair bit higher on a 'better' organic plate?
I wonder why my supplier didn't mention Sachs do an uprated organic too... considering it's actually more expensive too it's not like they wanted to sell the fancier one
Might give them a bell at lunch time
Dave
Well, what a task and a half fitting that was!
Not sure if there are any special procedures for running it in, or if it's natural for it to be a tad slipping when new, or when cold.
Anyway, at first it slipped a lot, as much as my old one. Then after 20 mins and 15 miles it slipped not a sausage, then was fine for another 25 miles and 45mins... then after sitting for 3hrs and driving it's slipping a bit again, and then when warm it's ok again...
So, maybe it's still bedding in and will become less temperature temperamental with time. Or maybe they are just slippy when cold?!
As for driveability, it's fine apart from 1st gear and reverse really, 1st gear you need to be smooth otherwise it judders a bit, reverse it just seems to judder full stop so I need to try optimise my momentum reversing technique rather than constant slipping
When it grips right though, it grips damn well, and the shift is very solid and the pedal is very light (lighter than before with my new OEM pressure plate, and the thrust bearing was shafted on the old clutch too)
Now I am a little interested in others experiences with these clutches wrt to bedding in and temps. It's basically a four paddle sprung centred variety...
Thanks
Dave
Not sure if there are any special procedures for running it in, or if it's natural for it to be a tad slipping when new, or when cold.
Anyway, at first it slipped a lot, as much as my old one. Then after 20 mins and 15 miles it slipped not a sausage, then was fine for another 25 miles and 45mins... then after sitting for 3hrs and driving it's slipping a bit again, and then when warm it's ok again...
So, maybe it's still bedding in and will become less temperature temperamental with time. Or maybe they are just slippy when cold?!
As for driveability, it's fine apart from 1st gear and reverse really, 1st gear you need to be smooth otherwise it judders a bit, reverse it just seems to judder full stop so I need to try optimise my momentum reversing technique rather than constant slipping
When it grips right though, it grips damn well, and the shift is very solid and the pedal is very light (lighter than before with my new OEM pressure plate, and the thrust bearing was shafted on the old clutch too)
Now I am a little interested in others experiences with these clutches wrt to bedding in and temps. It's basically a four paddle sprung centred variety...
Thanks
Dave
Bed it in like you would a set of sintered pads Dave, go easy on it for a few hundred miles to clean up the friction surfaces and lay down a layer of new pad material, then find somewhere quiet where you can just keep setting off in second gear a half dozen times or so just to warm the plate through slowly and thoroughly.
Then press and hold the pedal for a minute or so with the engine ticking over just to cool the flywheel back down, ease the clutch in with as little slippage as possible and try to drive back home with as little gear changing/clutch slipping as possible - that should let the plate cool back down without introducing more heat.
Park it up, leave it overnight and it should be fine thereafter.
The only big difference between the clutch and brake bedding is you don't want to get the clutch as hot, if you can smell it like you can with the onset of green fade on brake pads, you've overdone it, all you're wanting to do is warm the assembly through enough to release any excess resins or oils in the plate from production.
Then press and hold the pedal for a minute or so with the engine ticking over just to cool the flywheel back down, ease the clutch in with as little slippage as possible and try to drive back home with as little gear changing/clutch slipping as possible - that should let the plate cool back down without introducing more heat.
Park it up, leave it overnight and it should be fine thereafter.
The only big difference between the clutch and brake bedding is you don't want to get the clutch as hot, if you can smell it like you can with the onset of green fade on brake pads, you've overdone it, all you're wanting to do is warm the assembly through enough to release any excess resins or oils in the plate from production.
Edited by PhillipM on Sunday 28th September 01:51
Interesting read, I assume that's good advice for running in any clutch? I've just had a new flywheel and clutch fitted and was wondering how best to bed it in.
It's a kevlar clutch and a slightly lighter single mass flywheel instead of the stock dual mass jobbie if that makes any difference.
It's a kevlar clutch and a slightly lighter single mass flywheel instead of the stock dual mass jobbie if that makes any difference.
Well, I drove again today about 30 miles, slipped a bit (but not much) till it was warm, then was fine after say 10 miles into the journey.
Then I let my brother have a spin, he ragged the tits off it, then when he got back I just propped the clutch down, had Sunday dinner, left it about three and a half hours, and now on the way back it was fine...
Will just see how it goes tomorrow.
Just can't wait to get down to refining the mapping now, G-tech and diagnostics gear at the ready to see how much torque I can get through it
Target is 160bhp/270lbft... and fingers crossed for 1100kg once the aircon is fully removed and the spare wheel replaced with tyre repair foam
/\/\/\/\
Yep, ever since I started bedding my normal brakes in (the heating/cooling way, not the 500 steady miles way) I've found them much better in operation and having a better lifetime. I expect the same applies to clutches, so probably taking it gently at first until you can warm it safely, and then giving it a good warming and then letting it cool un-clamped is probably a good plan...
I just went out and gave it beans and could feel the clutch literally grating as it slipped like a rasp on some wood, so no doubt that left a less than ideal surface... so hopefully it's settling in better now with a good heating and then settled cooling period
Why they don't write the ideal way to bed them in on the box is beyond me, because in the case of more performance clutches it's clearly important to get the best from them!
Dave
Then I let my brother have a spin, he ragged the tits off it, then when he got back I just propped the clutch down, had Sunday dinner, left it about three and a half hours, and now on the way back it was fine...
Will just see how it goes tomorrow.
Just can't wait to get down to refining the mapping now, G-tech and diagnostics gear at the ready to see how much torque I can get through it
Target is 160bhp/270lbft... and fingers crossed for 1100kg once the aircon is fully removed and the spare wheel replaced with tyre repair foam
/\/\/\/\
Yep, ever since I started bedding my normal brakes in (the heating/cooling way, not the 500 steady miles way) I've found them much better in operation and having a better lifetime. I expect the same applies to clutches, so probably taking it gently at first until you can warm it safely, and then giving it a good warming and then letting it cool un-clamped is probably a good plan...
I just went out and gave it beans and could feel the clutch literally grating as it slipped like a rasp on some wood, so no doubt that left a less than ideal surface... so hopefully it's settling in better now with a good heating and then settled cooling period
Why they don't write the ideal way to bed them in on the box is beyond me, because in the case of more performance clutches it's clearly important to get the best from them!
Dave
Similar with a Kevlar clutch - that's what I run, but it won't take as much heat as with a sintered plate, so leave a little time between slipping just to try to keep the maximum temperature down, but the heat level consistantly high over enough time to bed it in.
I get some serious laughs when people see me bedding in the multi-plate clutches on the rally cars - we chain them to the workshop wall, select third and give it some stick to get them warmed up, it might seem strange but otherwise they hardly ever get slipped as they're on sequential boxes and putting the power down onto gravel or mud, so they don't get bedded in.
If you don't do it you find your spangly clutch that should take 600lbft starts slipping 3 months later even though it's only taking 350.
I get some serious laughs when people see me bedding in the multi-plate clutches on the rally cars - we chain them to the workshop wall, select third and give it some stick to get them warmed up, it might seem strange but otherwise they hardly ever get slipped as they're on sequential boxes and putting the power down onto gravel or mud, so they don't get bedded in.
If you don't do it you find your spangly clutch that should take 600lbft starts slipping 3 months later even though it's only taking 350.
Edited by PhillipM on Sunday 28th September 21:51
Arghhhh
Did some 3rd gear starts (about five) then reversed onto my drive with the handbrake on and slipping it, left the clutch in for almost three hours, let it re-clamp, then left it overnight. Still slipping, but once warm it's fine, say after 5-10 mins... really really solid, with really positive engagement, and it seems to mellow too, juddering less etc.
Is it just in their nature to be a bit crap when cold?
I'm just going to ring the re-seller this lunch time and ask a few q's, and just start driving it normally and hope it just beds in better (it does seem to be slowly getting better, but I'm sure it should just work right away, and I'm worried that there *may* be an issue elsewhere... ie, is my flywheel damaged from the old organic plate slipping like a bugger now and again the week before?)
Sachs website rates it at 350Nm, and I'm probably running 340Nm as it is... but I have a friend with an OE spec normal clutch (LuK) that takes similar torque, and just slips a tiny bit at high loads in 5th around peak torque...
Could my new OEM pressure plate take a while to bed in too? I heard that as the friction plates wear the clamping force increases as the springs attitude changes as they change pitch.
Hmmmmm, all an interesting learning curve, I'm happy to buy parts, it's just swapping clutches on these cars is a complete arse of a job!
Dave
Did some 3rd gear starts (about five) then reversed onto my drive with the handbrake on and slipping it, left the clutch in for almost three hours, let it re-clamp, then left it overnight. Still slipping, but once warm it's fine, say after 5-10 mins... really really solid, with really positive engagement, and it seems to mellow too, juddering less etc.
Is it just in their nature to be a bit crap when cold?
I'm just going to ring the re-seller this lunch time and ask a few q's, and just start driving it normally and hope it just beds in better (it does seem to be slowly getting better, but I'm sure it should just work right away, and I'm worried that there *may* be an issue elsewhere... ie, is my flywheel damaged from the old organic plate slipping like a bugger now and again the week before?)
Sachs website rates it at 350Nm, and I'm probably running 340Nm as it is... but I have a friend with an OE spec normal clutch (LuK) that takes similar torque, and just slips a tiny bit at high loads in 5th around peak torque...
Could my new OEM pressure plate take a while to bed in too? I heard that as the friction plates wear the clamping force increases as the springs attitude changes as they change pitch.
Hmmmmm, all an interesting learning curve, I'm happy to buy parts, it's just swapping clutches on these cars is a complete arse of a job!
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Tuesday 30th September 11:48
Flywheel skimmed.
Haha, no.
It said nothing on any instructions!? Indeed there were no instructions at all, with either the OEM Valeo kit or the Sachs Racing friction plate.
I think it's a tad too late for that
So is that skimmed as in, machined back (surely this reduces clamping pressure?), or just a fine top-layer taken back? (ie a bit of wet and dry )
I have a spare flywheel too, though swapping that would have been a bigger ball ache!
Well, it grips ok once warm, so I'm guessing it's ok, I assume it's just cooking off the old organic crap on the flywheel... (I guess it's a bit like slotted discs helping clean the pads, but backwards, maybe the paddles will help clean the mated surfaces (pressure plate and flywheel)?!? )
Dave
Haha, no.
It said nothing on any instructions!? Indeed there were no instructions at all, with either the OEM Valeo kit or the Sachs Racing friction plate.
I think it's a tad too late for that
So is that skimmed as in, machined back (surely this reduces clamping pressure?), or just a fine top-layer taken back? (ie a bit of wet and dry
)I have a spare flywheel too, though swapping that would have been a bigger ball ache!
Well, it grips ok once warm, so I'm guessing it's ok, I assume it's just cooking off the old organic crap on the flywheel... (I guess it's a bit like slotted discs helping clean the pads, but backwards, maybe the paddles will help clean the mated surfaces (pressure plate and flywheel)?!? )
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Tuesday 30th September 12:25
Fine top layer taken back on a cnc grinder or even a sturdy lathe/mill, gets rid of any contaminants from the organic plate and makes sure the new surface is perfectly flat then.
It might sort itself out as you say, but worth bearing in mind.
I just put the CNC mill over mine with some wiper inserts in a face mill, took 0.1mm off, nice mirror finish.
Then black oxided it, 'cause I'm a tart when it comes to shiny engine bits.
Maybe you're just being punished for using the devils fuel.
It might sort itself out as you say, but worth bearing in mind.
I just put the CNC mill over mine with some wiper inserts in a face mill, took 0.1mm off, nice mirror finish.
Then black oxided it, 'cause I'm a tart when it comes to shiny engine bits.
Maybe you're just being punished for using the devils fuel.
Edited by PhillipM on Tuesday 30th September 12:36
Haha, it probably is punishment.
Just went out at lunch and drove it a bit more agressively, and it was fine within three miles and a few mins.
Maybe they do take some heat to get going fully, but because I can drive quickly enough for my daily commute without ever leaving 5th gear or using more than half throttle and 2500rpm, it just doesn't get hot
Anyway, just gonna bloody drive it now... just want it gripping for when I do my remapping tests, trying to perfect the devils breath map (smoke) to get the ideal balance between puffs of smoke and response
Then it's onto the rail pressure adjustments
Brummm... cough cough
dave
Just went out at lunch and drove it a bit more agressively, and it was fine within three miles and a few mins.
Maybe they do take some heat to get going fully, but because I can drive quickly enough for my daily commute without ever leaving 5th gear or using more than half throttle and 2500rpm, it just doesn't get hot
Anyway, just gonna bloody drive it now... just want it gripping for when I do my remapping tests, trying to perfect the devils breath map (smoke) to get the ideal balance between puffs of smoke and response
Then it's onto the rail pressure adjustments
Brummm... cough cough
dave
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