Fitting a Peugeut MI16 in a kitcar (upright, not 30° angle)?

[Stijn]

Hi all,

I'm building an offroad sprinter (simular to a kitcar, but this one is for offroad) to compete in local offroad races.

I am the proud owner of a very good peugeot MI16 engine.
The problem is however that normally the engine is fitted in a 30° angle in the car. Now we will be fitting the engine
longitudinally (in a rear engine configuration). So i was wondering what the issues are in putting the engine completely upright?

I will be using a Pace Dry Sump system, so in the bottem there will be no problem of oil surge, but there could be problems in the
oil returning from the head...

Is there anyone out there who has experience in using the MI16 in a upright placement and could give me some hints?

THanks

[RT106]

I don't know the answer to your question, but isn't the Pace kit also designed to work at 30 degrees?

[Stijn]

Indeed, I asked this question to Pace as well. And they told me it would be possible, however they were not
sure what it would do to the flowing back of the oil from the head... Hence my question.

[BB-Q]

Have a look inside the cam cover. You'll find that many tilted engines weren't deliberately designed that way and that they've been tilted to get them under the bonnet. The engineers want long rods (which gives a tall block) and the designers want low bonnets, so the compromise is usually to tilt the engine. I'll be very surprised if the design of the drains in the head will compromise it if put into an upright position.

[RT106]

Sorry, I should have realised you'd spoken with Pace.

I've stripped a couple of Mi's in my time, though I must admit to never having reassembled one! Anyway, my memory of the oil drains is that they're parallel with the axis of the block and there's nothing unusual about their entry into the head so you shouldn't have any problems there.

Something that might trip you up... There's a oil spray manifold that sprays oil onto the cams. I think (99.99% sure) that there aren't any sprays on the exhaust cam because it sits in a bath of oil due to the angle of the engine, thus doesn't require any additional lubrication.

Have you registered on http://forum.205gtidrivers.com? They're generally a very knowledgeable bunch and have plenty of experience with the Mi16. They'll be able to confirm the above and identify any other potential drawbacks to what you propose.

Can I be cheeky and ask why you're planning to use the Mi16? It's certainly a great engine (ignoring the oil surge issue) but there are other more modern engines out there with just as much potential but a proven record of successful longitudinal installations.

[Pumaracing]

The oil drains in the head and block are vertical and it shouldn't make any difference to how well these work if the engine is not canted. In fact they'll probably work better. The head has an angled shelf on the floor between the valves to direct the oil towards the drain so when this is vertical it will hold some oil in the "valley" thus created but not enough to really make any odds. However this engine is well known for holding a lot of oil in the head anyway and if you're using solid lifter cams it's not a bad idea to restrict the oil feed hole in the block with a drilled bung. How big a drilling you need is another matter. You can take that up with your own engine builder or look at a Vauxhall XE engine which has one as standard.

Dave Baker
Puma Race Engines

[Pumaracing]

RT106 said:

Something that might trip you up... There's a oil spray manifold that sprays oil onto the cams. I think (99.99% sure) that there aren't any sprays on the exhaust cam because it sits in a bath of oil due to the angle of the engine, thus doesn't require any additional lubrication.

The engine would have to be on its side or upside down before either cam was anywhere near sitting "in a bath of oil". However yes the spray bar does only have drillings for the lobes on the inlet cam. The exhaust presumably relies on what's thrown off the lobes of the inlet. If you look at the direction of rotation of the cams the inlet one is flinging oil off the lifter towards the exhaust side. If the exhaust cam were the one with spraybar drillings it would only fling its own oil at that side of the cam cover and the inlet cam would expire in short order. Using the engine mounted vertically shouldn't make any difference to how well this works. It also wouldn't be that challenging to have holes drilled in the other side of the spraybar if you really wanted. I imagine the only reason the spraybar covers both cams anyway was because Peugeot either did have holes in both sides at one time, maybe just during development, or wanted the option of holes in both sides for race engines.

Dave Baker
Puma Race Engines

[Stijn]

Thank you Dave for the great insight (Have read the topics on your site a lot of times before).

Actually the problem or doubt has been sorted out. The problem arose when my contact at Quaife wasn't too sure about the angle of the Engine with the gearbox/bellhousing combination (as they never did this before). They sent me the technical drawings for me to see myself: conclusion: the engine is fitted in the 30° angle.

In terms of room in the offroad sprinter that is not a bad thing, furthermore, the sump will be a bit more protected because it will be a bit more turned away from the ground.

On a other note: what are the exact differences between the DFW and D6C engine, as I keep on reading different stories:
as far as I can see: timing on the inlet cam is different (n°3 pulley used on DFW, n°2 pulley used on the D6C, a 4° difference),
hence valve lift is different at TDC (higher in the DFW), am I right?

Offcourse the engine management is different, but are there any other differences to the engine internals???

Thanks

[RT106]

The DFW has a lower compression too, which I think is due to different pistons.