Engine smoking badly after rebuild... HELP PLEASE!...
Discussion
The minispares and the AE pistons look quite alike soo they may have been made at the same place. I will send the EVO pistons to the machinist for an inspection and to take photos of the item. If it looks the same, it may have some relation to our problem.
The breathers are flowing free for sure. I have even connected the breathers into the intake at the last stage to make some depression in the block without any success.
The breathers are flowing free for sure. I have even connected the breathers into the intake at the last stage to make some depression in the block without any success.
Still not solved, but now my funds are the bottleneck to get a new engine to a new machine shop.
Untill I gather my forces, I have inspected the engine components again (and again and again).
I have found some strage marks on the bearings. This is the engine with the EVO pistons. It did slightly more than 600kms.
It looks that the very top of the bearing is coming off in pieces. All three mains look more or less the same. The big ends are ok.
Untill I gather my forces, I have inspected the engine components again (and again and again).
I have found some strage marks on the bearings. This is the engine with the EVO pistons. It did slightly more than 600kms.
It looks that the very top of the bearing is coming off in pieces. All three mains look more or less the same. The big ends are ok.
That's quite an unusual wear pattern which is caused by an insufficient oil film at low load and rpm whereas most bearings failures are at high load and rpm. It's sometimes attributed to excessive idling with insufficient oil pressure and can be exacerbated by oil dilution from fuel blowby past the rings which you've no doubt had quite a lot of.
High rpm bearing failure usually leads to a distinctive linear smearing and gouging of the bearing surface, often straight down the backing material. Low rpm failure creates this effect of "plucking" bits of bearing material off the shell in a mottled effect which doesn't actually look as though it's been caused by motion of the crank journal.
Essentially it's part and parcel of your piston and bore problems IMO although I'm surprised the big end bearings are ok with the mains this bad.
High rpm bearing failure usually leads to a distinctive linear smearing and gouging of the bearing surface, often straight down the backing material. Low rpm failure creates this effect of "plucking" bits of bearing material off the shell in a mottled effect which doesn't actually look as though it's been caused by motion of the crank journal.
Essentially it's part and parcel of your piston and bore problems IMO although I'm surprised the big end bearings are ok with the mains this bad.
Thanks.
It is very strange as in this engine I have a hi capacity oil pump. The other engine does not show the sings of this problem. Although I must inspect it again when I dismantle it.
I have controlled the oil pressure with a mechanic gauge. With this hi capacity pump, I had max oil pressure on idle cold. And very strong even when hot.
The engine did no work without oil pressure. I have started it only after cranking a bit to get oil pressure.
I use 20W50 as recommended for he mini. Is it possible that the bearings are a too tight fitted? I have tried putting a samll piece of cigarette paper between the bearing and the crankshaft. Although it did not siezed, I could feel some friction. I have measured the cigarette paper, it was 0.035mms. I could easily compress it to 0.02mms.
It is very strange as in this engine I have a hi capacity oil pump. The other engine does not show the sings of this problem. Although I must inspect it again when I dismantle it.
I have controlled the oil pressure with a mechanic gauge. With this hi capacity pump, I had max oil pressure on idle cold. And very strong even when hot.
The engine did no work without oil pressure. I have started it only after cranking a bit to get oil pressure.
I use 20W50 as recommended for he mini. Is it possible that the bearings are a too tight fitted? I have tried putting a samll piece of cigarette paper between the bearing and the crankshaft. Although it did not siezed, I could feel some friction. I have measured the cigarette paper, it was 0.035mms. I could easily compress it to 0.02mms.
Edited by camelotr on Tuesday 22 June 07:26
Edited by camelotr on Tuesday 22 June 07:28
I would buy some Plastigauge and measure all the clearances. Phone the bearing manufacturer for recommended clearance data.
When you speak to the bearing manufacturer you can also determine what their recommended crank lapping procedure is so that you can follow it for the next grind.
When you speak to the bearing manufacturer you can also determine what their recommended crank lapping procedure is so that you can follow it for the next grind.
i really cannot believe that you are still flogging this dead horse, especially when it has been advised that you GET A NEW MACHINE SHOP and a new block. trying to rework the mess you already have will ultimately cost you about 3 times as much as doing it right.... you are about twice the price of a proper rebuild at the moment.....
Pumaracing. your input has been very interesting and i have learnt an amount from this. many thanks
Pumaracing. your input has been very interesting and i have learnt an amount from this. many thanks
Edited by DrDeAtH on Tuesday 22 June 21:19
DrDeAtH said:
i really cannot believe that you are still flogging this dead horse, especially when it has been advised that you GET A NEW MACHINE SHOP and a new block. trying to rework the mess you already have will ultimately cost you about 3 times as much as doing it right....
I may not been clear enough - sorry english is not my main language.I am just about to go to a new machine shop and start again with a new engine. Just have to collect the funds.
And You are not right: I have not payed twice the price of the new work. I have payed minimum 4x
. And this is a fortune for me. But at least if I have to loose soo much money, I would like to learn as much as possible of my fault (and treat this loss as "education-fee"). And though much has been discovered, the main reason of this problem is not verified yet. I understand what Pumaracing said, and tend to agree/belive it, but untill I can build an engine which is not smoking, and identify at least faulty component, I cannot stop thinking.
Unfortunatly I have a "mate" in England. He has just rebuilt an engine for a GTM Rossa, and has exactly the same sympthoms as me.
Strange, isnt it? Deffiniatly not the same reconditioner. But still can be the same fault...
Where abouts in England is this "mate"? Maybe if I show him how to build an engine properly he can show you or you can take the opportunity to visit him and I'll show both of you.
I'm finding it hard to believe that such basic symptoms aren't the result of causes that would be obvious to any experienced expert with the right measuring equipment. I thought you had all your own measuring equipment and then suddenly you come out with a little gem like trying to check bearing clearances with a bit of fag paper which is guaranteed to get my blood pressure up! Why the hell aren't you measuring the crank and bearings with a micrometer and the housings with a bore gauge and working out the clearance instead of guessing at it?
FWIW I've never used plastigauge in 30 years or felt the slightest need to and I've never used a high pressure oil pump in any engine or felt the need to. If the tolerances are right and the components are in good condition then any basic engine will work just as it's meant to. Maybe when you're trying to get 200 bhp per litre you'd change the basic design but not on cooking A series engines with under 100 bhp.
To end up with completely knackered bearings after a few hundred kilometres means something basic is very wrong. If you can't spot that at build time, or in fact well before it, then we're all wasting our time here because I'll never know what things I assume you've got right but in fact you may have missed or not even known how to check.
My preferred bearings are King although any reputable bearing will be fine. Their web site also has all the basic dimensions listed which comes in very handy if you haven't got bearing catalogues.
http://www.king-bearings.com/cat/
Here's the page for your engine.
http://www.king-bearings.com/cat/panel/pan40.htm
I think the website only works properly with Internet Explorer though.
Bearing clearances should ideally be between 3/4 of a thou and 1 thou per inch of journal diameter. I prefer tight tolerances which help maintain oil pressure when the oil gets really hot so I always have cranks ground to the maximum size tolerance and if necessary I'll tweak the bearing caps on a sheet of emery paper to tighten things up even further if the housings are a bit loose.
Now you can go and measure everything, including crank straightness, and tell us what the situation really is. I expect with such severe bearing damage the crank journals will also be damaged though but you might be lucky and just need a polish.
Quickest way to grade the bearing shells is lay a crank on the work bench or in a block, zero a dial gauge on the top of a clean, polished journal and slip each shell in under the gauge. It's quicker and more accurate than using a micrometer and a drill bit.
I'm finding it hard to believe that such basic symptoms aren't the result of causes that would be obvious to any experienced expert with the right measuring equipment. I thought you had all your own measuring equipment and then suddenly you come out with a little gem like trying to check bearing clearances with a bit of fag paper which is guaranteed to get my blood pressure up! Why the hell aren't you measuring the crank and bearings with a micrometer and the housings with a bore gauge and working out the clearance instead of guessing at it?
FWIW I've never used plastigauge in 30 years or felt the slightest need to and I've never used a high pressure oil pump in any engine or felt the need to. If the tolerances are right and the components are in good condition then any basic engine will work just as it's meant to. Maybe when you're trying to get 200 bhp per litre you'd change the basic design but not on cooking A series engines with under 100 bhp.
To end up with completely knackered bearings after a few hundred kilometres means something basic is very wrong. If you can't spot that at build time, or in fact well before it, then we're all wasting our time here because I'll never know what things I assume you've got right but in fact you may have missed or not even known how to check.
My preferred bearings are King although any reputable bearing will be fine. Their web site also has all the basic dimensions listed which comes in very handy if you haven't got bearing catalogues.
http://www.king-bearings.com/cat/
Here's the page for your engine.
http://www.king-bearings.com/cat/panel/pan40.htm
I think the website only works properly with Internet Explorer though.
Bearing clearances should ideally be between 3/4 of a thou and 1 thou per inch of journal diameter. I prefer tight tolerances which help maintain oil pressure when the oil gets really hot so I always have cranks ground to the maximum size tolerance and if necessary I'll tweak the bearing caps on a sheet of emery paper to tighten things up even further if the housings are a bit loose.
Now you can go and measure everything, including crank straightness, and tell us what the situation really is. I expect with such severe bearing damage the crank journals will also be damaged though but you might be lucky and just need a polish.
Quickest way to grade the bearing shells is lay a crank on the work bench or in a block, zero a dial gauge on the top of a clean, polished journal and slip each shell in under the gauge. It's quicker and more accurate than using a micrometer and a drill bit.
Pumaracing said:
Where abouts in England is this "mate"? Maybe if I show him how to build an engine properly he can show you or you can take the opportunity to visit him and I'll show both of you.
I will invite him to this forum. I only know him from the GTM forum. I dont know where He lives.Pumaracing said:
I'm finding it hard to believe that such basic symptoms aren't the result of causes that would be obvious to any experienced expert with the right measuring equipment. I thought you had all your own measuring equipment and then suddenly you come out with a little gem like trying to check bearing clearances with a bit of fag paper which is guaranteed to get my blood pressure up! Why the hell aren't you measuring the crank and bearings with a micrometer and the housings with a bore gauge and working out the clearance instead of guessing at it?
I have only got the equipment to measure the bores. If I survive this problem and do not go bankrupt, I will be on it to get the remaining equipment. Although I am restoring cars. Engine build is only one in a year. Fag paper seemed only a good idea to rough-estimate if the clearance is far too tight.Pumaracing said:
FWIW I've never used plastigauge in 30 years or felt the slightest need to and I've never used a high pressure oil pump in any engine or felt the need to. If the tolerances are right and the components are in good condition then any basic engine will work just as it's meant to. Maybe when you're trying to get 200 bhp per litre you'd change the basic design but not on cooking A series engines with under 100 bhp.
I wanted to use the hicap. oil pump as I plan to put the oil cooler on the front of the car (engine in the back), which means +4ms of pipework with extra oil.Pumaracing said:
To end up with completely knackered bearings after a few hundred kilometres means something basic is very wrong. If you can't spot that at build time, or in fact well before it, then we're all wasting our time here because I'll never know what things I assume you've got right but in fact you may have missed or not even known how to check.
What I have checked: I have first put the crankshaft with a bit of oil in place. Torqued down. It was spinning free. I did not measured the clearance, but I was told by the workshop, that it is at 0.04mms. Then I have put the pistons in. After torquing down the bigend caps, I have rotated the crankshaft. I still only could feel the resistance of the rings. Again no measurements were taken. The bearings have simmetric pattern, which I think mean that the crankshaft is straight. I also have inspected the big ends at tdc, bdc and at halfway. They were they had free movement axialy on the shaft.Pumaracing said:
My preferred bearings are King although any reputable bearing will be fine. Their web site also has all the basic dimensions listed which comes in very handy if you haven't got bearing catalogues.
http://www.king-bearings.com/cat/
Here's the page for your engine.
http://www.king-bearings.com/cat/panel/pan40.htm
I think the website only works properly with Internet Explorer though.
Bearing clearances should ideally be between 3/4 of a thou and 1 thou per inch of journal diameter. I prefer tight tolerances which help maintain oil pressure when the oil gets really hot so I always have cranks ground to the maximum size tolerance and if necessary I'll tweak the bearing caps on a sheet of emery paper to tighten things up even further if the housings are a bit loose.
I have used Vanderwells. Accorduóing to factory spec, the mini runs between 0.025-0.07mmshttp://www.king-bearings.com/cat/
Here's the page for your engine.
http://www.king-bearings.com/cat/panel/pan40.htm
I think the website only works properly with Internet Explorer though.
Bearing clearances should ideally be between 3/4 of a thou and 1 thou per inch of journal diameter. I prefer tight tolerances which help maintain oil pressure when the oil gets really hot so I always have cranks ground to the maximum size tolerance and if necessary I'll tweak the bearing caps on a sheet of emery paper to tighten things up even further if the housings are a bit loose.
Pumaracing said:
Now you can go and measure everything, including crank straightness, and tell us what the situation really is. I expect with such severe bearing damage the crank journals will also be damaged though but you might be lucky and just need a polish.
Quickest way to grade the bearing shells is lay a crank on the work bench or in a block, zero a dial gauge on the top of a clean, polished journal and slip each shell in under the gauge. It's quicker and more accurate than using a micrometer and a drill bit.
Thanks.Quickest way to grade the bearing shells is lay a crank on the work bench or in a block, zero a dial gauge on the top of a clean, polished journal and slip each shell in under the gauge. It's quicker and more accurate than using a micrometer and a drill bit.
Edited by camelotr on Wednesday 23 June 16:15[/footnote]
[footnote]Edited by camelotr on Wednesday 23 June 16:18Edited by camelotr on Wednesday 23 June 16:18
Even if you're only building one engine a year there's really no excuse for not having basic measuring equipment like micrometers and dial gauges.
You can get perfectly good Polish made micrometers for about £10 each and a set of 4 to measure up to 4 inches will cover almost every eventuality.
A dial gauge on a magnetic stand is essential for many things. Not just for measuring dimensions and thicknesses but checking crank and cam runout, cam lobe lift and setting cam timing. I prefer gauges with 1" travel as the 1/2" ones can't cope with valve lift on some engines.
Good quality dial bore gauges are expensive but you can manage to an extent with telescopic gauges which you check against a micrometer. There is a definite knack to using them accurately and even then I don't rate them to less than half a thou but that's good enough to see if you're within basic tolerances on bearing housings and valve seat fitments. Personally I have a very precise Mitutoyo cylinder bore dial gauge measuring from 2" to 6" in 0.0001" increments, a 0.75" to 2" dial gauge accurate to a couple of tenths and an expanding gauge for holes less than 0.5" as well as telescopic gauges for anything else up to about 8".
If you don't have the right measuring equipment you're not an engine builder. You're just a "fitter" of other people's components and reliant on other people's measurements and I have little trust in those.
For a fraction of the money you've wasted so far you could have tooled yourself up properly to know whether things were right or wrong from the start.
You can get perfectly good Polish made micrometers for about £10 each and a set of 4 to measure up to 4 inches will cover almost every eventuality.
A dial gauge on a magnetic stand is essential for many things. Not just for measuring dimensions and thicknesses but checking crank and cam runout, cam lobe lift and setting cam timing. I prefer gauges with 1" travel as the 1/2" ones can't cope with valve lift on some engines.
Good quality dial bore gauges are expensive but you can manage to an extent with telescopic gauges which you check against a micrometer. There is a definite knack to using them accurately and even then I don't rate them to less than half a thou but that's good enough to see if you're within basic tolerances on bearing housings and valve seat fitments. Personally I have a very precise Mitutoyo cylinder bore dial gauge measuring from 2" to 6" in 0.0001" increments, a 0.75" to 2" dial gauge accurate to a couple of tenths and an expanding gauge for holes less than 0.5" as well as telescopic gauges for anything else up to about 8".
If you don't have the right measuring equipment you're not an engine builder. You're just a "fitter" of other people's components and reliant on other people's measurements and I have little trust in those.
For a fraction of the money you've wasted so far you could have tooled yourself up properly to know whether things were right or wrong from the start.
I only lack the bore gauge for the bearings. I have the mag stand and micrometers. They are old but checked english hardware (mostly Mercer). I will improve my tooling as soon as funds let it. Your last sentence is golden, but money gone now.
Edited by camelotr on Wednesday 23 June 16:55
Well if that's all you lack there's no real problem. You can buy a cheap enough set of these
http://www.lawson-his.co.uk/scripts/products.php?c...
but you can even manage without those for most things.
For the crank main bearing clearances simply assemble the crank dry using just the two end bearings and measure the vertical clearance with a dial gauge by lifting the crank ends up and down. If you then measure the journals and shell thicknesses you can then work out the housing bores by deduction. Similar technique for the rod bearings.
However main housings are very rarely outside tolerance although conrod big ends sometimes stretch and move about a bit. If they're badly oval they'll need correcting. The main thing to measure is the crank journals because the bearings are made to very fine tolerances and if the crank is ok then usually so is everything else.
I always polish cranks on the lathe but you can manage without that too at a pinch. Get an old OHC engine cambelt and cut it across once to make a long belt. Cut strips of wet and dry paper to the same width as the belt and strop the journals using the back of the belt to hold the paper, turning the crank 90 degrees every now and then to keep things even. Start with 400 grit to get any crap and brown oil deposits off and then go to 800 grit to put a finer polish on. You can go finer still if you like but it'll make sod all difference to how the engine runs.
I was once training an apprentice on an old Ford Transit engine about 15 years ago and I left him polishing the crank with w&d paper down to 1200 grit and then Solvol Autosol paint polish using the paper back of the strips of w&d paper to apply that. Trouble is I had to go out to make a delivery and never told him to stop. When I got back he was still polishing with Solvol and the frickin' journals were like mirrors. He said he wanted to see how shiny he could get them.
With a lathe it's less effort. Put the strip of w&d paper round the back of a journal using the cambelt to hold it, start the lathe at a low speed, about 100 rpm, hold the two ends of the cambelt and lean back and let the lathe do the work. Keep moving the belt side to side to cover the whole width of the journal and it takes just a few seconds on each journal to get a nice shiny finish.
With coarser grades of w&d paper like 180 or 240 grit you can even polish out minor wear marks as long as you don't drop below size tolerance.
http://www.lawson-his.co.uk/scripts/products.php?c...
but you can even manage without those for most things.
For the crank main bearing clearances simply assemble the crank dry using just the two end bearings and measure the vertical clearance with a dial gauge by lifting the crank ends up and down. If you then measure the journals and shell thicknesses you can then work out the housing bores by deduction. Similar technique for the rod bearings.
However main housings are very rarely outside tolerance although conrod big ends sometimes stretch and move about a bit. If they're badly oval they'll need correcting. The main thing to measure is the crank journals because the bearings are made to very fine tolerances and if the crank is ok then usually so is everything else.
I always polish cranks on the lathe but you can manage without that too at a pinch. Get an old OHC engine cambelt and cut it across once to make a long belt. Cut strips of wet and dry paper to the same width as the belt and strop the journals using the back of the belt to hold the paper, turning the crank 90 degrees every now and then to keep things even. Start with 400 grit to get any crap and brown oil deposits off and then go to 800 grit to put a finer polish on. You can go finer still if you like but it'll make sod all difference to how the engine runs.
I was once training an apprentice on an old Ford Transit engine about 15 years ago and I left him polishing the crank with w&d paper down to 1200 grit and then Solvol Autosol paint polish using the paper back of the strips of w&d paper to apply that. Trouble is I had to go out to make a delivery and never told him to stop. When I got back he was still polishing with Solvol and the frickin' journals were like mirrors. He said he wanted to see how shiny he could get them.
With a lathe it's less effort. Put the strip of w&d paper round the back of a journal using the cambelt to hold it, start the lathe at a low speed, about 100 rpm, hold the two ends of the cambelt and lean back and let the lathe do the work. Keep moving the belt side to side to cover the whole width of the journal and it takes just a few seconds on each journal to get a nice shiny finish.
With coarser grades of w&d paper like 180 or 240 grit you can even polish out minor wear marks as long as you don't drop below size tolerance.
What grit do you need for the crank polishing?
http://www.tools-supplies.co.uk/emery-tape-25mm--5...
We used Emery Tape for bearing fitting when a shaft was supplied a little over size.
http://www.tools-supplies.co.uk/emery-tape-25mm--5...
We used Emery Tape for bearing fitting when a shaft was supplied a little over size.
camelotr said:
I can hold against anything but temptation. I have ordered a set of thoose tools.
Crank polishing is superb again. Thanks. I will try and report.
Using those gauges properly takes some practice. Insert a gauge into the bore to be measured with the T at about 10 degrees to the bore axis so the gauge is sprung out oversize and then nip up the clamp screw gently. Then rock the gauge over centre so the bore itself compresses the gauge down. As you rock exactly across the true diameter the gauge will close down to the smallest size. It's the same sort of action as you use with a dial bore gauge to find the true diameter.Crank polishing is superb again. Thanks. I will try and report.
Now withdraw it, nip the clamp screw a bit tighter and measure with a micrometer. Rock (wiggle) the gauge as you slowly wind the micrometer down until the gauge just drags slightly as it goes over centre between the anvils. You have to be careful not to let the micrometer itself close the gauge down even further or you'll get an undersize reading. It's easier with the micrometer held in a stand or vice so you have a hand free.
Once the mike is set about right repeat a couple of times until you get consistent readings. If you practice on a bore you already have an accurate measurement for it'll be easier. Cheap gauges are more erratic and "sticky" than really good quality ones but you'll get to within a thou easily and to maybe half a thou or better with practice which is enough to see if a bore is within tolerance. However they're certainly no substitute for either ease and speed of use or accuracy compared to a dial bore gauge.
Generally telescopic gauges read slightly oversize because the springiness in them means they usually don't close down quite to the bore diameter size as you rock over centre. Another technique is to rock over centre in the bore being measured two or three times before withdrawing them so hopefully they close down a bit more. You can try and see what suits you best until you get consistent readings against a known bore. Consistency is more important than exact accuracy because you can deduct a constant error from your measured size in future if say you know your gauge will always read 3 tenths over.
The main thing I use mine for these days is for fitting hardened or oversize valve seat inserts into cylinder heads where there isn't access room for a dial bore gauge. After boring out the old insert I measure the resulting hole and then turn the new insert down on the lathe to the desired interference fit, usually about 3 to 4 thou oversize before pressing it in. Half a thou accuracy on the bore size is adequate for that but I wouldn't want to try boring and honing engine blocks using them. It'd take forever trying to measure taper and ovality in many places up and down a bore which you can do in seconds with a dial bore gauge.
For polishing cranks if you don't have a lathe it'll be easier if you make a simple wooden stand for your bench. A couple of thin planks for uprights 9 inches or whatever apart with V notches in them to hold two of the main bearings and a top clamp and screw on one of those to stop the crank turning. Then you can hold a crank with one end sticking out towards you while you polish the mains and big ends and then turn the crank round to do the other end. You'll figure something out.
Pumaracing said:
Looking at the picture again I can follow individual scratch lines up, across and then down again and yes it might well be from the hone and not the boring bar but that makes no difference. If half the bore surface is just horizontal marks instead of 45 degree ones because he hasn't moved the hone up and down quick enough it's still crap.
I'm started to get annoyed. I spend all this time explaining exactly how you need a 45 degree cross hatch pattern in all the honing and yet you've obviously looked closely at this machinist's work yet again and still rebuilt the bloody engine with horizontal marks everywhere without questioning it or posting the photo up here first. I think I'm wasting my time.
You live in Hungary not Outer Mongolia. Surely to god there are other engine reconditioners in a country that has its roots in engineering even if it means a bit of a drive to get to them. You're wasting a small fortune in petrol anyway trying to run in crap engines that keep smoking so you might as well use it driving to a decent machinist instead.
(coming back to this thread, trying to find out what the history was)I'm started to get annoyed. I spend all this time explaining exactly how you need a 45 degree cross hatch pattern in all the honing and yet you've obviously looked closely at this machinist's work yet again and still rebuilt the bloody engine with horizontal marks everywhere without questioning it or posting the photo up here first. I think I'm wasting my time.
You live in Hungary not Outer Mongolia. Surely to god there are other engine reconditioners in a country that has its roots in engineering even if it means a bit of a drive to get to them. You're wasting a small fortune in petrol anyway trying to run in crap engines that keep smoking so you might as well use it driving to a decent machinist instead.
Puma - we have spoken before offline. My late father was a head porting expert (Hungarian funnily enough!) and he would be in stiches now if he was still alive!
I've recently updated his old website with a video of him taken in the 90's (yes, he's not porting the head - just buzzing around for the benefit of my mother who insisted on getting a video of him - looking back now, good job she did.)
http://mez.co.uk/mezporting/
(he calls these jobs tractor engines.. also beetle and Harleys were refered to as tractors also..)
Edited by eliot on Wednesday 7th July 22:57
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