Engine smoking badly after rebuild... HELP PLEASE!...
Discussion
I'm sorry but I'm not happy at all. You can still see the horizontal boring marks under the cross hatch quite clearly. I told you once - ditch this machinist. He's a f***king idiot. This looks NOTHING like the bore finish I sent you a link to previously.
http://theoldone.com/articles/badtothebone/Cylinde...
This is nothing better than the first attempt except he has used a coarser stone to disguise the boring marks.
How the hell can you not see this? He's bored right to size again and then flashed a hone over it to give it a semblance of cross hatch.
Look at your own picture for god's sake. It's all horizontal marks. None of that should be visible.
http://theoldone.com/articles/badtothebone/Cylinde...
This is nothing better than the first attempt except he has used a coarser stone to disguise the boring marks.
How the hell can you not see this? He's bored right to size again and then flashed a hone over it to give it a semblance of cross hatch.
Look at your own picture for god's sake. It's all horizontal marks. None of that should be visible.
.
Camelotr I dont want to interrupt because pumaracing is doing such a good job of explaining all this.
The marks the hone leaves are the crossed lines you see and they happen as the hone rises and falls inside the bore, while going round and round
This shows all the marks the hone leaves
the horizontal lines are from before the honing is done, we can even see the same marks inside the other part picture of the next bore, your man is getting it all wrong
Pumaracing, you are a great inspiration, I know where I'll be coming for advice when I start the rebuild of my 1293 Midget, cheers
The marks the hone leaves are the crossed lines you see and they happen as the hone rises and falls inside the bore, while going round and round
This shows all the marks the hone leaves
the horizontal lines are from before the honing is done, we can even see the same marks inside the other part picture of the next bore, your man is getting it all wrong
Pumaracing, you are a great inspiration, I know where I'll be coming for advice when I start the rebuild of my 1293 Midget, cheers
Looking at the picture again I can follow individual scratch lines up, across and then down again and yes it might well be from the hone and not the boring bar but that makes no difference. If half the bore surface is just horizontal marks instead of 45 degree ones because he hasn't moved the hone up and down quick enough it's still crap.
I'm started to get annoyed. I spend all this time explaining exactly how you need a 45 degree cross hatch pattern in all the honing and yet you've obviously looked closely at this machinist's work yet again and still rebuilt the bloody engine with horizontal marks everywhere without questioning it or posting the photo up here first. I think I'm wasting my time.
You live in Hungary not Outer Mongolia. Surely to god there are other engine reconditioners in a country that has its roots in engineering even if it means a bit of a drive to get to them. You're wasting a small fortune in petrol anyway trying to run in crap engines that keep smoking so you might as well use it driving to a decent machinist instead.
I'm started to get annoyed. I spend all this time explaining exactly how you need a 45 degree cross hatch pattern in all the honing and yet you've obviously looked closely at this machinist's work yet again and still rebuilt the bloody engine with horizontal marks everywhere without questioning it or posting the photo up here first. I think I'm wasting my time.
You live in Hungary not Outer Mongolia. Surely to god there are other engine reconditioners in a country that has its roots in engineering even if it means a bit of a drive to get to them. You're wasting a small fortune in petrol anyway trying to run in crap engines that keep smoking so you might as well use it driving to a decent machinist instead.
Mea culpa Sir. Mea maxima culpa.
But I would like to ask Your gentle patience with me. Please. I may be a bit dumb-minded, but please take it to count, that I am only a beginner car "restorer". I am only doing it 5 years now. This work is soo complicated, that a lifelong learning will only result a half-knowledge. What I know is not too much at all.
I never had a problem like this. Neverever. I have built my engines automaticly. Recently I have not even measured the engine to check what the machinist did. Now I have a PROBLEM. This costed me about 2000 euros up to this moment + 300 hours of extrawork (driving 1500+kms etc) But I am trying very very hard to solve it. And did not missed a word of what You have said. Still I though this honing pattern is better than last time. Now I know it is not.
Do You think that this is the cause of the smoking?
But I would like to ask Your gentle patience with me. Please. I may be a bit dumb-minded, but please take it to count, that I am only a beginner car "restorer". I am only doing it 5 years now. This work is soo complicated, that a lifelong learning will only result a half-knowledge. What I know is not too much at all.
I never had a problem like this. Neverever. I have built my engines automaticly. Recently I have not even measured the engine to check what the machinist did. Now I have a PROBLEM. This costed me about 2000 euros up to this moment + 300 hours of extrawork (driving 1500+kms etc) But I am trying very very hard to solve it. And did not missed a word of what You have said. Still I though this honing pattern is better than last time. Now I know it is not.
Do You think that this is the cause of the smoking?
Pumaracing said:
You live in Hungary not Outer Mongolia. Surely to god there are other engine reconditioners in a country that has its roots in engineering even if it means a bit of a drive to get to them. You're wasting a small fortune in petrol anyway trying to run in crap engines that keep smoking so you might as well use it driving to a decent machinist instead.
Belive me, I will bring this engine ANYWHERE where my problem can be solved.I have picked this machinist after I was adviced by other restorers (doing Porsches and Astons etc). The workshop is 200kms from my home, soo each time I drive 400kms on one trip to get there and back.
They are not even cheap (they are deffiniatly NOT).
Edited by camelotr on Monday 3rd May 19:58
Well clearly there's some improvement in the honing over the first attempts but you're asking too much for me to be definitive just from pictures which can be deceptive. I can tell you what ought to be done but if you don't know exactly what surface finishes to look for I can't see an easy way of you ever knowing if it's been done right.
One thing you might do is try and get a brand new cylinder liner for a Peugeot 205 XU engine or similar then you can see exactly what pattern and roughness an OE factory put into a honed bore. The £30 or so one of those will cost you might be a good investment considering how much money this exercise is soaking up.
One thing you might do is try and get a brand new cylinder liner for a Peugeot 205 XU engine or similar then you can see exactly what pattern and roughness an OE factory put into a honed bore. The £30 or so one of those will cost you might be a good investment considering how much money this exercise is soaking up.
I have set the carb with the WBO. It was close, but not perfect. Naturaly a bit rich obove 3500. Now it is nearly spot on. Only getting very slightly rich (AFR 13.7 above 4500). I have reset the ignition also.
The car is running sweet and the smoking is getting better. I have no clue how, but the end of the exhaust is getting dry and the plugs are showing up better and better. There is now more than 1000kms on the clock. On the last 300kms, I could only measure a ninmal oil loss (1-1.5dl), but the timing cover oil seal is leaking (must have got hurt on the 5th assembly), soo I think only minimal oil was burned. Although the exhaust still smells awfull and if I blip on the throttle after idling a bit, there is some smoke coming out.
??? I will keep on running.
The car is running sweet and the smoking is getting better. I have no clue how, but the end of the exhaust is getting dry and the plugs are showing up better and better. There is now more than 1000kms on the clock. On the last 300kms, I could only measure a ninmal oil loss (1-1.5dl), but the timing cover oil seal is leaking (must have got hurt on the 5th assembly), soo I think only minimal oil was burned. Although the exhaust still smells awfull and if I blip on the throttle after idling a bit, there is some smoke coming out.
??? I will keep on running.
camelotr said:
I have set the carb with the WBO. It was close, but not perfect. Naturaly a bit rich obove 3500. Now it is nearly spot on. Only getting very slightly rich (AFR 13.7 above 4500). I have reset the ignition also.
The car is running sweet and the smoking is getting better. I have no clue how, but the end of the exhaust is getting dry and the plugs are showing up better and better. There is now more than 1000kms on the clock. On the last 300kms, I could only measure a ninmal oil loss (1-1.5dl), but the timing cover oil seal is leaking (must have got hurt on the 5th assembly), soo I think only minimal oil was burned. Although the exhaust still smells awfull and if I blip on the throttle after idling a bit, there is some smoke coming out.
??? I will keep on running.
Well it's not rocket science. Although the honing has far too much horizontal component it does at least have a decent cross hatch in parts and eventually it'll run in of a fashion. Done properly it would have been run in after a few miles and never smoked to start with.The car is running sweet and the smoking is getting better. I have no clue how, but the end of the exhaust is getting dry and the plugs are showing up better and better. There is now more than 1000kms on the clock. On the last 300kms, I could only measure a ninmal oil loss (1-1.5dl), but the timing cover oil seal is leaking (must have got hurt on the 5th assembly), soo I think only minimal oil was burned. Although the exhaust still smells awfull and if I blip on the throttle after idling a bit, there is some smoke coming out.
??? I will keep on running.
The reason for the horizontal component of the honing is blindingly obvious. The operator was leaving the hone to "dwell" at the top and bottom of each stroke so it was just rotating horizontally instead of reversing direction immediately. The actual speed of movement, when he was actually moving it up and down was clearly about right to achieve the 45 degree angle so essentially what was happening was 45 degrees on the upstroke, dwell to create horizontal marks and then 45 degrees again on the downstroke.
A machine hone will change direction almost instantly as it hits its top and bottom travel stops to leave sharply defined V shapes in the honing like the photo I linked you to. A manual operator can at best achieve slightly rounded V marks but this guy was just going up, pausing, then down again, pausing and so on. Maybe he needs to work out at the gym more.
With care and a slow drill speed I could almost simulate machine hone work but if you run the drill faster you need to change direction very quickly. Just taking one tenth of a second to change direction can lead to the hone moving horizontally for 1/3 of the bore circumference at 200 rpm. 60 rpm is ideal for roughing and for finishing work I'd try to stall the drill down to almost a crawl. At just one revolution every 2 or 3 seconds I could really control what the stones were doing and the pattern they were creating.
Manual honing is a real art. You have to learn until it's instinctive just how fast to move the hone up and down relative to its rotational speed to get the correct cross hatch angle. Every time you change the drill speed or the tightness of the stone adjustment which of course also stalls the drill somewhat everything changes but with practice it becomes second nature.
A machine hone will have pre-set up and down speed relative to rotational speed to achieve any cross hatch angle you desire and this will never change throughout the honing process. Great if you can afford to buy one or have enough work to warrant one but like any tool a manual hone will do good work if the operator uses it right. This guy clearly can't.
You might want to consider finding a specialist honing company rather than a general engine reconditioner. Honing companies will have state of the art equipment and be just as happy honing an engine block as oil rig drilling tubes or whatever else they do. They'll be used to working to tenths of a thou and achieving specific surface finishes. They probably do lots of engine blocks anyway and will know far more about what to aim for than you ever will.
I have measured the compression after lunch and found 3 cylinders at 14-14.5 bars, but no1 was down to 12. I thought that something has happened to the bore, soo removed the head to see the things.
Fortunatly there are no marks on the bore, and after testing the head it proved to be a leaking exhaust valve only. I will take care of that, nothing horror.
But this is how the bores and the head looks like now.
The honing is quite faded now (after 1500kms!). On the front and rear of the cylinder it has completely gone - just like last time.
But the valves look much better and the pistons were dry (just hen I removed the head some oil went down next to the head studs and oiled them slightly.
Fortunatly there are no marks on the bore, and after testing the head it proved to be a leaking exhaust valve only. I will take care of that, nothing horror.
But this is how the bores and the head looks like now.
The honing is quite faded now (after 1500kms!). On the front and rear of the cylinder it has completely gone - just like last time.
But the valves look much better and the pistons were dry (just hen I removed the head some oil went down next to the head studs and oiled them slightly.
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