HELP! Frustrating 1.8 K-series starting/running problems

[Emeye]

Hello,

I've got a 99 plate 1.8 Freelander with the dodgy 1.8 K-series engine.

It has a strange starting and sluggish running problem that I cannot get to the bottom of. I had it at my local garage for 2 weeks and things are not much better. It is definitely not the head gasket and there are no errors any more in the computer - initially there was a coolant temp sensor and inlet manifold error.

I cannot get it to start from cold unless I disconnect the Coolant Temperature Sensor and give it a bit of gas - I can then connect the sensor and it will run but is very sluggish, but will not stall.

The problem started the morning after the coldest night of the year - it appeared to be over-fuelling. It was turning over but not starting and there was a strong smell of petrol. I replaced the plugs, distributor cap, rotor arm and HT leads and it started first time, but ran rough.

I then replaced the Coolant Temperature Sensor, but the problem didn't go away so I gave up and handed it to my local garage - they have replaced the coil, replaced the inlet manifold and injectors and also replaced the water pipes as they said they were collapsing.

It does run better than it did, but still I have the starting problem and it is sluggish to drive.

Could the after market Coolant Sensor I bought be dodgy? Could it be another sensor like the Lambda Sensor that is playing up and unplugging the Coolant Temp Sensor hides the real problem by compensating?

HELP!

ETA: I've spent hours searching the web for possible answers, but when I find people with similar problems, there is never a solution posted!

Edited by Emeye on Tuesday 28th December 20:25

[Egg Chaser]

MAF/MAP sensor?

[dblack1]

I wouldnt pursue the shotgun approach anymore (meaning the "it could be this so lets replace it" approach). Is it running rich/lean? does it just run like crap? hook a scantool up to it, it should be able to tell you if the O2 is detecting a lean/rich condition, it should also be able to tell you what kinda timing it is running. Im not familiar with your car/motor so i cant give you specific info but im sure it wont be hard for you to find online. If you dont have access to a decent scantool you can do everything the old school way. To determine if you have a rich/lean condition you can inspect your spark plugs, and you can check your timing with a timing light (and a piece of chalk).

I think you should identify the actual problem first, then inspect all of the parts that could be causing the problem (mostly sensors).

[Huntsman]

Cant be hard to take some ohm readings across this coolant temp sensor?

[scorchio]

best bit of advice is get a scan tool on it so you can monitor real time values( by disconnecting the coolant temp sensor you are putting the ecu into a form of default mode,watch on real time data when you connect and disconnect the coolant temp sensor, you may see some strange readings like -50 so it richens up the mix,but this has an effect of badly sooting up the plugs after a very short time), upstream oxygen sensors switch rapidly between rich and lean to try and maintain a stoichiometric reading or in other words lambda,your car might be obd or obd-1, so its more than likely open loop mixture control ie no downstream oxy sensor after the cat to monitor exhaust gas values and the ecu adjusts the mix,open loop only looks for the upstream values.Now you can have a oxygen sensor code stored on the ecu but this can be misleading as in lots of occasions i have found it to be the maf sensor throwing its dummy oot the pram, that would be my first port of call.If these all check out ok then its onto checking valve clearances,static timing is ok. Next would be a compression and leakdown test, hope some of this helps

[dblack1]

scorchio said:

so its more than likely open loop mixture control ie no downstream oxy sensor after the cat to monitor exhaust gas values

a heated 02 sensor (after the cat) shouldnt have an effect on mixture. Its only there to verify the cat is working properly and will throw a CEL if it is reading outside of the normal range.

Just because the code thrown says temp sensor doesnt mean that it is the temp sensor (most ECUs will go into a limp mode when you throw a code, meaning the system should be running in open loop). Its already been stated the temp sensor has been replaced, that doesnt mean its working properly. If you just start blaming crap your taking the shotgun approach, and that hasnt worked for you so far, and it can be a very costly approach. as i have said previously identify symptoms, find the problem. we dont know that he is running rich or lean, all we know is hes vehicle is running like crap, hes replaced a bunch of parts and he initially had thrown the 2 listed codes. We also know that it doesnt start when the temp sensor is plugged in (the temp sensor readings should have no effect on startup because the system should be running in open loop). Honestly this sounds like the ECU is bad, but i would check out everything else (including wiring) first.

A good scantool (not code puller) will be nice, but if you dont have access to one, the above mentioned method of checking timing and a/f mix will work (even though its old school). I will mention that it is not safe to assume that your running rich just because you smell gas (esp on starup).

Edit: you noted that your head gasket is fine... do you have coolant in your oil or oil in your coolant?

Edited by dblack1 on Thursday 30th December 06:09

[porka911t]

It's a fairly basic engine, where are you located ?

[Emeye]

Cheers for the replies, I'm East of Manchester - I will check with my garage whether they have a scantool - originally my freelander was running very rich, the plugs were covered in petrol when I took them out and replaced them initially. I need to confirm if this is still the case.

This has been suggested as the possible problem and solution by a member of the mg-rover.org forum who experienced the same on his wife's freelander:
http://www.myfreelander.co.uk/Body/femmemprobs8.ht...

Thanks - I feel like I'm making progress now.

[dblack1]

gas on the plugs doesnt mean ur running rich, it means your not getting combustion.

Edit: Fuel filter would cause a lean condition.

Edited by dblack1 on Thursday 30th December 08:51

[Emeye]

dblack1 said:

gas on the plugs doesnt mean ur running rich, it means your not getting combustion.

Edit: Fuel filter would cause a lean condition.

Thanks, that makes more sense then! It was a friend that said the soaked plugs and smell of petrol meant running rich. Thing is I suspect I may have a combination of problems, some that have now been cured - the reason I suspect this is because when I located the fuel pump under the rear seats it looked like someone had been messing with the wiring just before the pump - there was tape on the loom. I wonder if the previous owner had some problems. The engine performance I'm experiencing suggests a lack of fuel.

Cheers.

[davepoth]

Plugs soaked in petrol suggests plenty of petrol is getting to the cylinders, just that it isn't burning.

[Steve H]

I agree that weak mixture could explain your running/starting symptoms but not likely to give black or wet plugs.

You could do to know that the manifold vac is at idle. The live reading on a scan tool will probably be in millibar, should be between 300-400 at tickover, much more than that could indicate a problem with engine breathing (cam timing etc). Get a reading off the lambda sensor at the same time (as previously suggested it should be moving between 0.2 and 0.8v or thereabouts at idle when hot) and we should be able to know a bit more.

Steve H

[GKP]

The K series is vulnerable to poor/old plug leads.

[stevieturbo]

Emeye said:

Cheers for the replies, I'm East of Manchester - I will check with my garage whether they have a scantool

TBH, in this day and age I would find it hard to believe than any garage could survive without proper diagnostic equipment. Unless they just get mugs for customers who are happy to pay to have them blindly swap parts out with no reasoning for doing so.

Although then there is the issue of having the equipment, and knowing how to use it.

Changing parts like injectors etc at random, really isnt the way to diagnose problems.

[OctyVrs]

stevieturbo said:

Although then there is the issue of having the equipment, and knowing how to use it

Which is the real problem for a lot of garages :-(

[Steve H]

Totally agree with the last two comments. The most successful garages nowadays tend to have some plug-in kit but they also know when to get help from a specialist rather than blindly trusting the scanner or throwing parts at the car.

Unless they are so busy with problem based work (which still only takes up maybe 5% of typical turnover for a general workshop) they are simply not going to get enough practice to get really good at it or to generate enough income from diagnostics to buy all the kit that is required to do the job properly.

[dblack1]

whats been said is all too true today, many shops will replace parts because they "think" it is the source of the problem, then when that doesnt fix the problem, they tell you something else is bad too. Many of these shops can quickly identify a problem, but once that has happened they like to assume that something is the source of the problem rather than testing the part (the best they can) before charging you for a part. To confuse things worse, some parts suppliers dont have the best quality control, so you might buy a part, replace your broken part with another broken part and then assume that it was not the problem.

[Kieranders]

Hi,

What was the problem in the end?

I have an 04 plate with same engine, and a similar problem, although mine is starting ok, but revs are jumping up and down as soon as I touch the gas.

I recently had the upgraded HG and cam belt fitted, (before it failed) and it was running fine until then. When I got it back this happened. It seems to be much better when it's warmed up. I have changed the Idle control valve and Manifold pressure switch, which has improved the issue slightly.

Any idea?

[GreenV8S]

Kieranders said:

When I got it back this happened.

...

Any idea?

That suggests that the fault was introduced by the work, so my first step would be to let the people who did the work know about the problem and give them a chance to fix it.