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MyM8V8

6,867 posts

65 months

[news] 
Friday 4th May 2012 quote quote all
EmmaJ said:
wormus said:
Engine and supercharger totally written off. Went to MF yesterday to inspect the damage and it's a bit of a mess. The pistons used were not suitable for the stroke of my crank so the skirts had been sitting about 2 cm proud of/wearing away on the bottom of the bores. One of the pistons disintegrated completely, spreading its way into the other 7 cylinders and into the supercharger. No sign of heat or detonation anywhere - all shiny but with lots of dents! The block is cracked, and the whole engine is full of swarf and bits of piston.

The other 7 pistons (JE forged - not crap quality) all showed similar signs of premature wear due to excessive side loading. The rings on one side had been pinched and no longer moved freely in their groove. They were probably suited to a standard stroke engine, not mine.

All parts supplied to the engine builder were provided by "tuner B". fking idiot!
Not a fun day out, that's really awful news. Put your thoughts and energy into thinking how awesome the new build will be - that's what got me through after I killed mine. No point in dewelling on what has been and gone...
Is' a bit hard though, with that kind of a hole in your wallet Emma.

Paul. Again, so sorry, hope you have broad shoulders Mate.


wormus

4,911 posts

73 months

[news] 
Friday 4th May 2012 quote quote all
poshboy said:
what kind of money was spoken about for the TVS?? Pure curiosity incase I decided mine was avaliable


Discuss with Roger I suggest. You going down the turbo route now?

wormus

4,911 posts

73 months

[news] 
Friday 4th May 2012 quote quote all
stevieturbo said:

It is totally normal for stroker pistons to travel beyond the bottom of the bore, and you will see wear patterns on the piston skirt because of this ( one of the reasons I'm moving away from a 4" stroke, although the wear doesnt seem to cause a problem )
If the top of the piston is flush with the top of the deck, then they are correct fitment for your stroke.

Rings will pinch either due to incorrect gapping at the initial build, or excessive heat or a combination of both.
If they no longer rotate freely in the piston groove, either the piston is deformed by physical damage or heat.


As I said, no sign of heat. Heads and pistons look like new. However the engine was full of aluminium filings from all the pistons rubbing against the underside of the bore. The pistons were deformed like they have been crushed on one side. From what I have read it is actually more common for stroker kits to contain pistons with shorter skirts to protect against this.

wormus

4,911 posts

73 months

[news] 
Friday 4th May 2012 quote quote all
MyM8V8 said:
EmmaJ said:
wormus said:


Engine and supercharger totally written off. Went to MF yesterday to inspect the damage and it's a bit of a mess. The pistons used were not suitable for the stroke of my crank so the skirts had been sitting about 2 cm proud of/wearing away on the bottom of the bores. One of the pistons disintegrated completely, spreading its way into the other 7 cylinders and into the supercharger. No sign of heat or detonation anywhere - all shiny but with lots of dents! The block is cracked, and the whole engine is full of swarf and bits of piston.

The other 7 pistons (JE forged - not crap quality) all showed similar signs of premature wear due to excessive side loading. The rings on one side had been pinched and no longer moved freely in their groove. They were probably suited to a standard stroke engine, not mine.

All parts supplied to the engine builder were provided by "tuner B". ing idiot!


Not a fun day out, that's really awful news. Put your thoughts and energy into thinking how awesome the new build will be - that's what got me through after I killed mine. No point in dewelling on what has been and gone...


Is' a bit hard though, with that kind of a hole in your wallet Emma.

Paul. Again, so sorry, hope you have broad shoulders Mate.



Thanks, although I think deep pockets will prove more useful!

Spadge3

53 posts

14 months

[news] 
Friday 4th May 2012 quote quote all
DID a well nown engine builder touch all these engines ??? r. g.b
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MyM8V8

6,867 posts

65 months

[news] 
Friday 4th May 2012 quote quote all
wormus said:
As I said, no sign of heat. Heads and pistons look like new. However the engine was full of aluminium filings from all the pistons rubbing against the underside of the bore. The pistons were deformed like they have been crushed on one side. From what I have read it is actually more common for stroker kits to contain pistons with shorter skirts to protect against this.
I wonder if the block was prepped properly? I've seen stuff put together without de-burring the sharp edge which forms at the bottoms of the cylinder walls. Any side thrust and the ally pistons would be shaved each rev'.?

MyM8V8

6,867 posts

65 months

[news] 
Friday 4th May 2012 quote quote all
Spadge3 said:
DID a well nown engine builder touch all these engines ??? r. g.b
You have a problem with a crankshaft Mate? If so, know where you are coming from.

ringram

12,270 posts

118 months

[news] 
Friday 4th May 2012 quote quote all
Lots of pain and suffering in this thread.

Im doing my best never to feel the pain again. For me that means staying NA, doing my best with it and accepting it will never win dyno days, but in all other respects it does itself proud.

Good on you guys throwing money at power. (perhaps somewhat recklessly at times) Maybe one day Ill do an FI build. But I have zero time for it right now and see zero need.

Ill be wheeling the camaro out to the next track day, so bring all your exploding and non exploding vehicles along and try your luck. There is pint for everyone who beats my best time in road trim smile




gsd2000

9,889 posts

53 months

[news] 
Friday 4th May 2012 quote quote all
ringram said:
Lots of pain and suffering in this thread.

Im doing my best never to feel the pain again. For me that means staying NA, doing my best with it and accepting it will never win dyno days, but in all other respects it does itself proud.

Good on you guys throwing money at power. (perhaps somewhat recklessly at times) Maybe one day Ill do an FI build. But I have zero time for it right now and see zero need.

Ill be wheeling the camaro out to the next track day, so bring all your exploding and non exploding vehicles along and try your luck. There is pint for everyone who beats my best time in road trim smile
Expecting some wheelies from you, with your solid rear axle auto camaro, which can run wide rear tyres wink

wormus

4,911 posts

73 months

[news] 
Friday 4th May 2012 quote quote all
Spadge3 said:
DID a well nown engine builder touch all these engines ??? r. g.b


Built by Jondel race engines. Pete knows his stuff but only put together what he was supplied.

Ferb

3,110 posts

80 months

[news] 
Friday 4th May 2012 quote quote all
wormus said:
Engine and supercharger totally written off. Went to MF yesterday to inspect the damage and it's a bit of a mess. The pistons used were not suitable for the stroke of my crank so the skirts had been sitting about 2 cm proud of/wearing away on the bottom of the bores. One of the pistons disintegrated completely, spreading its way into the other 7 cylinders and into the supercharger. No sign of heat or detonation anywhere - all shiny but with lots of dents! The block is cracked, and the whole engine is full of swarf and bits of piston.

The other 7 pistons (JE forged - not crap quality) all showed similar signs of premature wear due to excessive side loading. The rings on one side had been pinched and no longer moved freely in their groove. They were probably suited to a standard stroke engine, not mine.

All parts supplied to the engine builder were provided by "tuner B". fking idiot!
Really sorry to read this Wormus

stevieturbo

8,432 posts

117 months

[news] 
Friday 4th May 2012 quote quote all
wormus said:
As I said, no sign of heat. Heads and pistons look like new. However the engine was full of aluminium filings from all the pistons rubbing against the underside of the bore. The pistons were deformed like they have been crushed on one side. From what I have read it is actually more common for stroker kits to contain pistons with shorter skirts to protect against this.
The fact rings are pinched and jammed into the ring grooves suggests heat to me.
Certainly there would be no real visual on the head or pistons as far as heat goes. Aluminium does not discolour.

All LS engines have short skirts. It would be physically impossible to use pistons with long skirts otherwise they would hit the crankshaft and also the trigger wheel ( which my JE's did slightly as there wasnt enough clearance on No8 for the trigger. No big deal though. There was clearance when cold though, obviously not when running.)

And all LS pistons protrude beyond the bottom of the bore. Strokers more so. Again, it is physically impossible for it not to happen given the design of the engine.
And it's highly unlikely JE would make a piston so unsuitable for the application which is a very common one.

The only way you'll stop it happening is to buy a tall deck block and use matching longer con-rods.

Depending on what the skirts actually look like, the damage may have come from the bottom of the bore not being finished properly. This area needs smoothed so there are no sharp edges for the piston skirt to rub against. Again, common practice on an LS because ALL piston skirts do protrude beyond the bore.


crisisjez

7,513 posts

75 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
ringram said:
Lots of pain and suffering in this thread.

Im doing my best never to feel the pain again. For me that means staying NA, doing my best with it and accepting it will never win dyno days, but in all other respects it does itself proud.

Good on you guys throwing money at power. (perhaps somewhat recklessly at times) Maybe one day Ill do an FI build. But I have zero time for it right now and see zero need.

Ill be wheeling the camaro out to the next track day, so bring all your exploding and non exploding vehicles along and try your luck. There is pint for everyone who beats my best time in road trim smile
Fancy your chances against Soph? hehe

007 VXR

51,853 posts

57 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
crisisjez said:
ringram said:
Ill be wheeling the camaro out to the next track day, so bring all your exploding and non exploding vehicles along and try your luck. There is pint for everyone who beats my best time in road trim smile
Fancy your chances against Soph? hehe


hehe
Iam in Rich biggrin

ARAF

11,746 posts

93 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
M11 MFP said:
007 VXR said:
stock engine FI 1 NA 2
hehe
Which are the two stock atmo engine failures?
ARAF's may have seen 8000+ rpm, so floated valvetrain was unavoidable. Rich's was a crate Ls2 427 from a US aftermarket, so hardly stock.
Correct. 3rd gear at 125+ on stock gearing - the maths tell the tale.

Poshboy managed to break his N/A engine as well, IIRC. I don't think it matters whether NA or FI. Rag it, and you'll break it.

Wormus,
Sorry to hear that yours is completely wrecked.

wormus

4,911 posts

73 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
Thanks everyone. I'm hoping Roger will have mercy on my bank account.

ARAF

11,746 posts

93 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
wormus said:
Thanks everyone. I'm hoping Roger will have mercy on my bank account.
Frankly, if I were at this point, I think a complete LS9 from GM would be my choice. A partially forged engine with 650bhp and a years warranty would be looking very attractive and get you straight back on the road. The main reasons why we didn't go with that route was funds, and the fact that we are happy with what the standard engine has.

That would then allow you enjoy the car while assembling the parts for something out of the ordinary.

Boosted LS1

13,457 posts

130 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
stevieturbo said:
The fact rings are pinched and jammed into the ring grooves suggests heat to me.
Certainly there would be no real visual on the head or pistons as far as heat goes. Aluminium does not discolour.

All LS engines have short skirts. It would be physically impossible to use pistons with long skirts otherwise they would hit the crankshaft and also the trigger wheel ( which my JE's did slightly as there wasnt enough clearance on No8 for the trigger. No big deal though. There was clearance when cold though, obviously not when running.)

And all LS pistons protrude beyond the bottom of the bore. Strokers more so. Again, it is physically impossible for it not to happen given the design of the engine.
And it's highly unlikely JE would make a piston so unsuitable for the application which is a very common one.

The only way you'll stop it happening is to buy a tall deck block and use matching longer con-rods.

Depending on what the skirts actually look like, the damage may have come from the bottom of the bore not being finished properly. This area needs smoothed so there are no sharp edges for the piston skirt to rub against. Again, common practice on an LS because ALL piston skirts do protrude beyond the bore.
Generally speaking, this is true but the finished bore is slightly inboard of the cylinder casting. Pistons wouldn't usually have issues here unless the side thrust was extreme at the time or unless a seizure was happening. As for pinching of the top rings in the top ring land, the piston compression/deformation will be from either heat, massively high cylinder pressures or detonation (high cylinder presures and shock waves). There's nothing above the piston so it's got to be one of them. This could cause a chain of events to happen, including piston seizure, destruction of an engine etc. Vertical scratches on the piston sides above the top ring indicate detonation as do craters, pin holes and grooves on the piston crown. If there aren't scratches or witness marks then I'd agree with the heat idea. Forged pistons are hard as nails, it takes quite a lot to deform them.

Boosted LS1

13,457 posts

130 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
ARAF said:
Frankly, if I were at this point, I think a complete LS9 from GM would be my choice. A partially forged engine with 650bhp and a years warranty would be looking very attractive and get you straight back on the road. The main reasons why we didn't go with that route was funds, and the fact that we are happy with what the standard engine has.
How does the warranty work though if it's not sitting in a stocker? Is it warrantied if installed in a ford escort for instance?

ARAF

11,746 posts

93 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
Boosted LS1 said:
ARAF said:
Frankly, if I were at this point, I think a complete LS9 from GM would be my choice. A partially forged engine with 650bhp and a years warranty would be looking very attractive and get you straight back on the road. The main reasons why we didn't go with that route was funds, and the fact that we are happy with what the standard engine has.
How does the warranty work though if it's not sitting in a stocker? Is it warrantied if installed in a ford escort for instance?
It's a crate unit, so as long as it's installed by a VAT registered garage, and isn't played with, then the unit is covered. Once you start playing with pulley ratios or ECU maps, you're on your own though.
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