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bobfredstinker

548 posts

19 months

[news] 
Wednesday 22nd August 2012 quote quote all
mik_ok said:
I've only looked at the document quickly (OK, I searched for the terms "standard", "modified" and "roadworthiness") and I'm no lawyer, but I'm not sure that it is stating all modifications will be illegal? :?

It seems to be highlighting that mods which affect the safety and environmental aspects may not be acceptable. The former is probably quite a good idea, not so sure about interpretation of the latter....

To me it seemed to be suggesting that anything which made the car technically different from when it was first manufactured (and in the case of classic cars also visually different) would not be acceptable.

MyM8V8

Original Poster:

6,800 posts

64 months

[news] 
Wednesday 22nd August 2012 quote quote all
bobfredstinker said:
mik_ok said:
I've only looked at the document quickly (OK, I searched for the terms "standard", "modified" and "roadworthiness") and I'm no lawyer, but I'm not sure that it is stating all modifications will be illegal? :?

It seems to be highlighting that mods which affect the safety and environmental aspects may not be acceptable. The former is probably quite a good idea, not so sure about interpretation of the latter....

To me it seemed to be suggesting that anything which made the car technically different from when it was first manufactured (and in the case of classic cars also visually different) would not be acceptable.
Yep. That's how it read to me.

Edited by MyM8V8 on Wednesday 22 August 15:40

ringram

12,208 posts

117 months

[news] 
Wednesday 22nd August 2012 quote quote all
Mines totally standard, just look under the bonnet smile

Anyway same sham in NZ 15 years ago which meant that you could still mod if you got a special engineers report afterwards to certify it.
It seems to read that as long as is it is certified all is well. So perhaps an additional cost, same as IVA etc.

Im not sure its a show stopper. But might make those 1960's muscle cars more interesting.. Though they seem to suggest they need to be in compliance with the original spec too.

MyM8V8

Original Poster:

6,800 posts

64 months

[news] 
Wednesday 22nd August 2012 quote quote all
mik_ok said:
I've only looked at the document quickly (OK, I searched for the terms "standard", "modified" and "roadworthiness") and I'm no lawyer, but I'm not sure that it is stating all modifications will be illegal? :?

It seems to be highlighting that mods which affect the safety and environmental aspects may not be acceptable. The former is probably quite a good idea, not so sure about interpretation of the latter....

Well that's how they might be selling it, but it's not what the document says.

I'm all for safety and am confident our MOT testers can and will find anything dangerous and fail it.

Any Government that tries this one will have to weigh up the voting power of a significant number of motor modifiers.

Having said all this, wouldn't it be great to see Halfords just disappear up its own exhaust pipe?

ringram

12,208 posts

117 months

[news] 
Wednesday 22nd August 2012 quote quote all
Totally unenforceable.

Imagine a 468 cube stock block with cnc ported stock heads etc.
How is anyone going to detect that? Keep the cam sensible and there is no way to tell.

I think its to stop slow people hanging dice off the rear view mirrors and sticking badges on the sides.
I bet it creates a market in OEM "like" performance parts.

The hotrod guys should be worried though and the kit car types. Not sure they cause any accidents though. They should ban sport hatch's instead.
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SturdyHSV

2,056 posts

36 months

[news] 
Wednesday 22nd August 2012 quote quote all
MyM8V8 said:
Any Government that tries this one will have to weigh up the voting power of a significant number of motor modifiers.
I don't think it's a significant amount unfortunately. Especially considering a wide selection of the sort of mouth breathing Saxo enthusiasts this will affect probably couldn't muster up the nous or enthusiasm to vote if their benefits depended on it.

2woody

797 posts

79 months

[news] 
Wednesday 22nd August 2012 quote quote all
Basically what it's saying is that the MOT Directive is to be replaced by a roadworthiness Regulation. This Regulation would mandate that the MOT be changed to ensure that a pass can only be awarded if the vehicle is as originally type-approved.

Ergo any modifications away from type-approval would be illegal.

The first point is that as a Regulation, the UK Government has absolutely no say in its implementation. None.

Whilst this all seems quite clear-cut, it would be an absolute sod to enforce. A complete type-approval is an absolutely immense effort, underpinned by tests and a monster approval information document. The problem arises when the car in question doesn't match the approval document, but to test this thoroughly takes a week or so. And what about cars which don't have a full type-approval, like SVA/IVA for instance.

As an example, the approval documentation states the manufacturer of tyre that the vehicle is originally equipped with. An alert manufacturer will quote a couple of alternatives on the approval to avoid backing themselves into a supplier-base corner. Once supplied to a customer, if this new Regulation comes into force, the only permissible tyres will be as type-approved, i.e. the original manufacturer. Same for windscreen, oil filter, spark plugs, bulbs, etc.

There is a portent for this all - the current HiD stance adopted by VOSA. Whilst they've stated that retro-fitting HiDs is illegal (wrongly), they haven't been able to make them illegal - relying on putting a few lines into the MOT. That was basically the same argument, with a false assumption that deviation away from type-approved is illegal. This may all be about to change.

MyM8V8

Original Poster:

6,800 posts

64 months

[news] 
Wednesday 22nd August 2012 quote quote all
2woody said:
Ergo any modifications away from type-approval would be illegal.

The first point is that as a Regulation, the UK Government has absolutely no say in its implementation. None.

Whilst this all seems quite clear-cut, it would be an absolute sod to enforce.
Except that when you have an insurance claim and you have a modified vehicle, it's NOT insured is it, as it is illegal? (And you therefore wouldn't be able to declare mods as you do now.)



merdock

493 posts

29 months

[news] 
Wednesday 22nd August 2012 quote quote all
Hi,
Please tell me this is some sort of joke? how can a law be passed making completly safe non original cars illegal?

Drew ss

2,571 posts

53 months

[news] 
Wednesday 22nd August 2012 quote quote all
Stuff the eu I say never declared mods and I'm not about to start....it's just a German rigime someone once said the Germans will strike again and the control they have over the eu isn't surprising

ARAF

11,554 posts

92 months

[news] 
Wednesday 22nd August 2012 quote quote all
I'm not sure it's being read correctly. The Belgians and French already have draconian legislation, that stops performance modifications. This is why they put so much effort into body kits (to adverse effect IMHO). They don't seem unhappy.

The piece below


[Quote:=Ace]
The Commission proposes to introduce a definition for a roadworthiness test that components of the vehicle must comply with characteristics at the time of first registration. This may prevent most modifications to vehicles without further approval of the vehicle. (this will apply to many components and to all types of vehicle).
[/quote]


is no different to what the Germans already have (all aftermarket parts have their own TUV cert for that particular car) and it works fine. When you have your MOT, you produce the TUV papers for the non-standard parts. There's no reason why superchargers, exhausts, suspension etc can't be certified for the car it's intended to be fitted to.

One-off specials will have to be submitted for roadworthyness, before they are allowed out on the road - so basically, if you mod it, then you need to SVA before being allowed back on the road.

If I had a car built, I'd want to be sure it was safe, before I braked for a corner and the extra inspection may be an expense and inconvenience, but if it saves an accident....


I think there's a bit of scare in the story, and this is allowed by the powers that be in this country. When they later say "We have arranged that you won't lose your car, but only have to do X & Y to be legal" then they will look like the good guys.

ringram

12,208 posts

117 months

[news] 
Wednesday 22nd August 2012 quote quote all
California CARB certification is the same. As long as parts are certified they are ok.

gsd2000

9,780 posts

52 months

[news] 
Wednesday 22nd August 2012 quote quote all
ringram said:
California CARB certification is the same. As long as parts are certified they are ok.
thats what i was thinking, are they going to do something similar to cali

ARAF

11,554 posts

92 months

[news] 
Wednesday 22nd August 2012 quote quote all
The unfortunate part is that it will burden the end user with extra expense, just to pay for an extra layer of bureaucracy

monkfish1

5,070 posts

93 months

[news] 
Wednesday 22nd August 2012 quote quote all
It doesnt even actually state that parts need to be approved. Only that the car needs to be tested to meet certain safety and enviromental criteria, which the UK already does, but plenty of other EU countries do not. Some interesting discussion over in Genral Gassing, including the guy who points out, that objectives made in the preamble is not relevant , only what is actually contained with the actual document text.

bobfredstinker

548 posts

19 months

[news] 
Wednesday 22nd August 2012 quote quote all
monkfish1 said:
It doesnt even actually state that parts need to be approved. Only that the car needs to be tested to meet certain safety and enviromental criteria, which the UK already does, but plenty of other EU countries do not. Some interesting discussion over in Genral Gassing, including the guy who points out, that objectives made in the preamble is not relevant , only what is actually contained with the actual document text.
Do you have a link to said thread?

monkfish1

5,070 posts

93 months

[news] 
Wednesday 22nd August 2012 quote quote all
bobfredstinker said:
monkfish1 said:
It doesnt even actually state that parts need to be approved. Only that the car needs to be tested to meet certain safety and enviromental criteria, which the UK already does, but plenty of other EU countries do not. Some interesting discussion over in Genral Gassing, including the guy who points out, that objectives made in the preamble is not relevant , only what is actually contained with the actual document text.

Do you have a link to said thread?


www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=23&t=1187893&mid=50546&i=0&nmt=An+end+to+%27modified%27+cars%3F+&mid=50546

stevieturbo

8,362 posts

116 months

[news] 
Wednesday 22nd August 2012 quote quote all
merdock said:
Hi,
Please tell me this is some sort of joke? how can a law be passed making completly safe non original cars illegal?
Governments and particularly the EU can do anything they like, and there really isnt much the general public can do about it.
Even violent protests wouldnt really get you anywhere.

We live in a free society, as long as we make the choices they allow us.

Behold81

1,733 posts

38 months

[news] 
Thursday 23rd August 2012 quote quote all
So basically if you have mini tubed the car your screwed! That would be fun to put back to OEM spec.

Many cars have body mods that are one way.

ARAF

11,554 posts

92 months

[news] 
Thursday 23rd August 2012 quote quote all
Behold81 said:
So basically if you have mini tubed the car your screwed!
Technically, that can already be interpreted as being the case. With monocoque cars, even fitting a sunroof is technically a change in the chassis.
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