Got to get a chiller!

[007 VXR]

jonnM said:

Is it true that you lose the lift-off pop and crackle with these coatings? I seem to remember someone said this at a meet, might've been Moif?

IIRC He did say this

[ARAF]

Are you sure it's because of that?

I thought the pops was due to the tune.

[007 VXR]

ARAF said:

Are you sure it's because of that?

I thought the pops was due to the tune.

I do remember Moif saying this.

[anonymous-user]

stevieturbo said:

I assume you're driving normally most of the time ? ie the engine isnt making or using any more power than another vehicle at those times.

Then no real reason for the fans to be on excessively. But again comes down to stat, fan turn on/off temps etc

As long as it isnt overheating, or running hotter than normal, then wouldnt worry too much about it.

But if they're on all the time, might be worth having things checked.

Yes, come to think about it fans are set to run a little longer than standard. Water temp sits around 192 deg F which is pretty normal. Blower suffers from heat soak, especially in traffic but that's just a fact of life. From the videos I've seen, the chiller will get IATs down to about 75 deg F which sounds perfect.

[stevieturbo]

wormus said:

Yes, come to think about it fans are set to run a little longer than standard. Water temp sits around 192 deg F which is pretty normal. Blower suffers from heat soak, especially in traffic but that's just a fact of life. From the videos I've seen, the chiller will get IATs down to about 75 deg F which sounds perfect.

Given the chargeheater fitted to the car...may as well chuck a 71deg stat in it over the summer. ( That's 160degF for Americans )

That'd immediately lose you 19degC both in engine temp, and also heat transferred to the water in your cooler
Neither of which can be a bad thing, and costwise...is virtually nothing.

[Tattooboy]

007 VXR said:

ARAF said:

Are you sure it's because of that?

I thought the pops was due to the tune.

I do remember Moif saying this.

Might make sense if the cooler temps in the exhaust stop the unburnt fuel igniting ?

[moif]

007 VXR said:

ARAF said:

Are you sure it's because of that?

I thought the pops was due to the tune.

I do remember Moif saying this.

I did say that
From my understanding the reason is because of the coating the heat is kept inside the headers allowing the hot air to flow quicker,and i presume hotter air inside headers would get rid of any excess fuel quicker

Still get a few when cold tho

[ringram]

stevieturbo said:

Given the chargeheater fitted to the car...may as well chuck a 71deg stat in it over the summer. ( That's 160degF for Americans )

That'd immediately lose you 19degC both in engine temp, and also heat transferred to the water in your cooler
Neither of which can be a bad thing, and costwise...is virtually nothing.

Easy tiger, you will confuse the PD guys with your complex ideas

[007 VXR]

ringram said:

stevieturbo said:

Given the chargeheater fitted to the car...may as well chuck a 71deg stat in it over the summer. ( That's 160degF for Americans )

That'd immediately lose you 19degC both in engine temp, and also heat transferred to the water in your cooler
Neither of which can be a bad thing, and costwise...is virtually nothing.

Easy tiger, you will confuse the PD guys with your complex ideas

Or you could with MPG and savings

[ARAF]

ringram said:

stevieturbo said:

Given the chargeheater fitted to the car...may as well chuck a 71deg stat in it over the summer. ( That's 160degF for Americans )

That'd immediately lose you 19degC both in engine temp, and also heat transferred to the water in your cooler
Neither of which can be a bad thing, and costwise...is virtually nothing.

Easy tiger, you will confuse the PD guys with your complex ideas

He already has. A lower temp thermostat will mean the engine heats up slower (as it opens earlier), but one they are both open wide, they will flow the same, so how does this help cooling at high temps?

[stevieturbo]

ARAF said:

He already has. A lower temp thermostat will mean the engine heats up slower (as it opens earlier), but one they are both open wide, they will flow the same, so how does this help cooling at high temps?

Lower temp stat will mean engine warms up at exactly the same rate as with any other stat.

It does not open earlier, it opens at a colder temperature...which is exactly what it's supposed to do.

The engine will then run at this colder temperature, give or take a few deg..
Flow is irrelevant, it will flow the same as any stat, but the engine will run approx 20-25deg cooler than a factory stat. That's what a stat does, it regulates flow through the rad/engine in order to maintain a set temperature...so that's 25deg less heat energy going into his chargecooler system which is permanently bolted to the hot engine, and 25deg less heat he has to try and get rid of.


It helps with cooling the high temps...because the temps dont get as high in the first place. It's a win win right from the word go.

And if he already has a 71 deg stat, then he should not be seeing coolant/engine temps of 90degC unless the fans are set to turn on very late.
And when driving and there is airflow, it should maintain around 71degC

[ARAF]

I can see your theory, and I was a bit clumsy by saying 'earlier' when I actually meant at a cooler temperature (which is reached at an earlier time, all other things being equal).

However, you assume that the water system will then be able to keep that water at the 'stat open temperature. Water temperature can often be well above this - especially when you are running higher than standard power.

[stevieturbo]

ARAF said:

I can see your theory, and I was a bit clumsy by saying 'earlier' when I actually meant at a cooler temperature (which is reached at an earlier time, all other things being equal).

However, you assume that the water system will then be able to keep that water at the 'stat open temperature. Water temperature can often be well above this - especially when you are running higher than standard power.

If your cooling system cannot deal with less overall heat, then it has no mission at a higher temperature.

There is no assumption, colder stat gives it all an easier time.

[anonymous-user]

stevieturbo said:

Given the chargeheater fitted to the car...may as well chuck a 71deg stat in it over the summer. ( That's 160degF for Americans )

That'd immediately lose you 19degC both in engine temp, and also heat transferred to the water in your cooler
Neither of which can be a bad thing, and costwise...is virtually nothing.

I thought these engines were designed to run between 190 - 200 deg F to be at their most efficient? Any lower would surely increase fuel consumption and aren't oils designed to work within the same range? I would be concerned about contamination as condensation would not be burned out of the oil at lower temperatures.

I'd much rather think of a way to keep the blower cooler on hot days.

[gsd2000]

i plan to run a 160 degree stat, a big intercooler and meth on my centri ls1

[jonnM]

moif said:

007 VXR said:

ARAF said:

Are you sure it's because of that?

I thought the pops was due to the tune.

I do remember Moif saying this.

I did say that
From my understanding the reason is because of the coating the heat is kept inside the headers allowing the hot air to flow quicker,and i presume hotter air inside headers would get rid of any excess fuel quicker

Still get a few when cold tho

I'm not getting mine coated then....scaring OAP's and their little Jack Russells is the highlight of my day!

[ARAF]

stevieturbo said:

ARAF said:

I can see your theory, and I was a bit clumsy by saying 'earlier' when I actually meant at a cooler temperature (which is reached at an earlier time, all other things being equal).

However, you assume that the water system will then be able to keep that water at the 'stat open temperature. Water temperature can often be well above this - especially when you are running higher than standard power.

If your cooling system cannot deal with less overall heat, then it has no mission at a higher temperature.

There is no assumption, colder stat gives it all an easier time.

The higher the temperature difference between engine and ambient, the higher the rate of heat loss. A car's cooling system is nearly always at the limit of it's capabilities, when the climates where it will operate, and the way it will be operated are taken into account. Car manufacturers could easily build their cars 3" longer, to put an extra row of cooling cores in the radiator, but that all costs money.

We'll have to differ in our opinions. Mine is that the thermostat is there to bring the engine up to temperature quicker, and then sustain the engine at operating temperatures if so required (low duty in cold conditions could make the cooling system too efficient). Colder stats just mean they open at a lower temperature, and slows the rate of engine warming to an optimum running temperature range, which will use more fuel, and could prematurely wear components. If we take your opinion to the extreme and remove the 'stat completely, the engine does not remain stone cold, but will take a lot longer to reach the normal operating temperature range.

I can therefore see no reason to install a lower temperature 'stat, unless you are completing short periods of high engine duty, and the engine temperature is starting below the opening temperature of the colder stat.

[stevieturbo]

ARAF said:

The higher the temperature difference between engine and ambient, the higher the rate of heat loss. A car's cooling system is nearly always at the limit of it's capabilities, when the climates where it will operate, and the way it will be operated are taken into account. Car manufacturers could easily build their cars 3" longer, to put an extra row of cooling cores in the radiator, but that all costs money.

We'll have to differ in our opinions. Mine is that the thermostat is there to bring the engine up to temperature quicker, and then sustain the engine at operating temperatures if so required (low duty in cold conditions could make the cooling system too efficient). Colder stats just mean they open at a lower temperature, and slows the rate of engine warming to an optimum running temperature range, which will use more fuel, and could prematurely wear components. If we take your opinion to the extreme and remove the 'stat completely, the engine does not remain stone cold, but will take a lot longer to reach the normal operating temperature range.

I can therefore see no reason to install a lower temperature 'stat, unless you are completing short periods of high engine duty, and the engine temperature is starting below the opening temperature of the colder stat.

You are basing your thoughts on the notion you must run the engine at OEM temperatures.

This is not a OEM application, with OEM needs and regulations. Largely emissions related.

So what you think is an "optimum temperature" is not everyones opinion of optimum.
Optimum for power, cooler charge temps, better resistance to detonation...none of those are compatible with OEM emissions optimum which will be very hot.

Also the notion that an OEM car's cooling system is almost always at the limit is crazy. They need to design the system to cope with cold climates...and warm climates. The UK is not warm. So ALL cars will have considerable excess capacity in order to cope with those warmer climates, air-con use etc etc.

Again you suggest the stat is there to bring the engine up to temp quicker...partially correct I guess. But it's there to bring the engine up to a present temperature...full stop.

So it's very clear there are many reasons to install a cooler stat on a performance engine, and even more so one that has a chargeheater bolted directly to that hot engine.

[stevieturbo]

wormus said:

I thought these engines were designed to run between 190 - 200 deg F to be at their most efficient? Any lower would surely increase fuel consumption and aren't oils designed to work within the same range? I would be concerned about contamination as condensation would not be burned out of the oil at lower temperatures.

I'd much rather think of a way to keep the blower cooler on hot days.

What do you deem as "efficient" ? Or what does "efficient" mean to you ?

Yes oils are designed to work at certain temperatures...and chargecoolers are also designed to cool charge with cool water. Can you achieve that ? Will it be easier to achieve with a huge heat pump at 100degC, or one only pumping 70degC into the system ?


What oil temperatures are you seeing ? How often are you changing your oil ?

Warm ( for UK ) summer climate, condensation will not be an issue.

There may be compromises in there somewhere. I'll always opt for the compromise that gives the best and safest performance. During summer or when racing....I'll have the cooler stat in.
And I dont have a huge chargeheater bolted to my engine to contend with.

If you wanted, you could still delay fan turn on so that in traffic or slow moving the engine would still get up to a hotter temperature.
Once moving, main core temp would drop to stat controlled level again keeping everything cooler for better performance.
Or add a manual switch for the fan so you could override this hot setting for track, traffic, race, whatever scenario you wanted cooler running when stationary or slow moving.

In winter, by all means run a warmer stat. In summer...I can see no benefit to doing so.

[ARAF]

stevieturbo said:

You are basing your thoughts on the notion you must run the engine at OEM temperatures.

This is not a OEM application, with OEM needs and regulations. Largely emissions related.

So what you think is an "optimum temperature" is not everyones opinion of optimum.
Optimum for power, cooler charge temps, better resistance to detonation...none of those are compatible with OEM emissions optimum which will be very hot.

Also the notion that an OEM car's cooling system is almost always at the limit is crazy. They need to design the system to cope with cold climates...and warm climates. The UK is not warm. So ALL cars will have considerable excess capacity in order to cope with those warmer climates, air-con use etc etc.

Again you suggest the stat is there to bring the engine up to temp quicker...partially correct I guess. But it's there to bring the engine up to a present temperature...full stop.

So it's very clear there are many reasons to install a cooler stat on a performance engine, and even more so one that has a chargeheater bolted directly to that hot engine.

Car cooling systems are built to a budget, and cars are tested in extremes for durability, and also to make sure that they are not over-engineered. You'll be surprised how close to the limits cars are built, in the interest of (manufacturing) economy and lack of durability.

I can understand your argument, but my point is that an engine will not necessarily sit at 71 degrees C, just because it has a 71 deg C thermostat on it. You also need excess cooling - something that doesn't happen when you have a spirited drive in a standard car, let alone a tuned car.

Having thought about it, I can see your view as being appropriate to drag racing one of these engines, whereas I was thinking more of a track environment. I agree that if you have two engines, one at 71 deg C and one at 81 deg C, and you subject both to exactly the same work load, for a minute, then the engine with the lower starting temperature will not get quite as hot - but there won't be 10 deg C difference in temperatures at the end of that work period. However, if that period of load was 30 minutes or even just 15, then there will be negligible difference in the final temperatures of both cooling systems.

So, it looks like you can get away with a £6 thermostat, but I'd need an extra core row on the radiator - and I'd need the standard 'stat, to stop the temperature fluctuations that can come with a big rad.