Gutted, mapping :(
Discussion
stevieturbo said:
MyM8V8 said:
If the customer has paid the bill for a substantial amount of custom tuning, the intellectual property in that unique tune should belong to that client.
When you buy a PC with Windows on it...you dont buy all rights to Windows. Your copy is solely for you on your computer.Stig is right. When you ask someone to tune your vehicle in a unique way to suit the modifications in place, you are commissioning them to do work for you, not them. Irony here is that they still have (your)useful information from your work that may be used to their advantage in future, to increase the tuners revenue (without your permission).
ATM said:
If I wanted to pull my tune and post it up how would I do it?
I'm assuming you have efilive and drivers correctly installed on your laptop and a V2 unit with all cables supplied.Connect to the EFILIVE website and download all the manuals and instructions.
Or, go to the Ace in January and meet up with some of us who help or do it for you.
To chirp in here, I have to state that I completely disagree with Gareth, who is a friend of mine and who I admire for his various combos and performances.
I know how easy it is to do a lot of hard work and then just have it copied and abused.
My take on this is that with a tune you are paying for a performance upgrade. Period. Why it should be unlocked is completely at odds with my thinking as an amateur could go in to it and essentially f**k with a few parameters and cause damage in one way or another. If you want to tune the car then buy the necessary software and learn yourself at your own risk.
Most serious guys, like me, would offer a tune that is locked and if the customer was unhappy with the performance then the original tune would be flashed back in and money refunded. From what I've seen, heard and read lately on here and other forums, the tunes over here could be better.
Most have asked for a copy of my tune after TR this year, but why should I give away all the hours of data logging and hundreds of drag runs data that I have acquired??? Nothing is free on this level of input, but general advice is definitely for free and a share of experiences. But there is a limit in my view.
Gareth - just to restate this is only my stance on this topic. Everything else we pretty much agree upon!!! I do not, in any way, want you or any other forum member to be under the illusion that I am attacking you in any way mate :-)
I know how easy it is to do a lot of hard work and then just have it copied and abused.
My take on this is that with a tune you are paying for a performance upgrade. Period. Why it should be unlocked is completely at odds with my thinking as an amateur could go in to it and essentially f**k with a few parameters and cause damage in one way or another. If you want to tune the car then buy the necessary software and learn yourself at your own risk.
Most serious guys, like me, would offer a tune that is locked and if the customer was unhappy with the performance then the original tune would be flashed back in and money refunded. From what I've seen, heard and read lately on here and other forums, the tunes over here could be better.
Most have asked for a copy of my tune after TR this year, but why should I give away all the hours of data logging and hundreds of drag runs data that I have acquired??? Nothing is free on this level of input, but general advice is definitely for free and a share of experiences. But there is a limit in my view.
Gareth - just to restate this is only my stance on this topic. Everything else we pretty much agree upon!!! I do not, in any way, want you or any other forum member to be under the illusion that I am attacking you in any way mate :-)
Edited by TheLeatherman on Sunday 28th December 13:06
Very polite, Leatherman. 
I can understand what you are saying - that a user is paying for the use of the tune, not the coding of the tune. You cite that someone could play with it, if it were unlocked, but I don't see that as valid. If you've paid an expert to tune the ECU on your car, why would you want to then play with the parameters?
If the tune is locked, and only you can re-tune it, you might find this is at odds with EC competition laws - and why the manufacturers don't lock them in the first place.
I don't think many users on here know whether theirs are locked or not. I don't. I'd hate to go to someone for some work, which included needing a tune tweaked, only to find out that I have to return to a different company to have that alteration done. It's fine when you are on good terms with all, but if you've fallen out with someone, or a company has gone bust, what do you do?
I think there are two reasons for locking the tune. For those that are good at their job, it is to keep trade secrets (which is understandable but doesn't promote progress). However, for those that are not so good, locking can hide a dangerous tune that gives good power at the expense of longevity of the engine.
I can understand what you are saying - that a user is paying for the use of the tune, not the coding of the tune. You cite that someone could play with it, if it were unlocked, but I don't see that as valid. If you've paid an expert to tune the ECU on your car, why would you want to then play with the parameters?
If the tune is locked, and only you can re-tune it, you might find this is at odds with EC competition laws - and why the manufacturers don't lock them in the first place.
I don't think many users on here know whether theirs are locked or not. I don't. I'd hate to go to someone for some work, which included needing a tune tweaked, only to find out that I have to return to a different company to have that alteration done. It's fine when you are on good terms with all, but if you've fallen out with someone, or a company has gone bust, what do you do?
I think there are two reasons for locking the tune. For those that are good at their job, it is to keep trade secrets (which is understandable but doesn't promote progress). However, for those that are not so good, locking can hide a dangerous tune that gives good power at the expense of longevity of the engine.
TheLeatherman said:
{...}
Most have asked for a copy of my tune after TR this year, but why should I give away all the hours of data logging and hundreds of drag runs data that I have acquired??? Nothing is free on this level of input, but general advice is definitely for free and a share of experiences. But there is a limit in my view.
{...}
You reckon that much of your TR performance was in the tune? I've no doubt your tune is good, but you've got a pretty unique setup. See you next year I hope, you inspired me to change the diff ratio in a hurry (not that that may be advantageous at TR, but you looked like you were having more fun Most have asked for a copy of my tune after TR this year, but why should I give away all the hours of data logging and hundreds of drag runs data that I have acquired??? Nothing is free on this level of input, but general advice is definitely for free and a share of experiences. But there is a limit in my view.
{...}
)KMud said:
You reckon that much of your TR performance was in the tune? I've no doubt your tune is good, but you've got a pretty unique setup. See you next year I hope, you inspired me to change the diff ratio in a hurry (not that that may be advantageous at TR, but you looked like you were having more fun )
In truth yes. All the power figures that were noted prior to TR mean't a lot of the guys and gals should be much faster and they weren't. To me that gives two core issues: 1. their tunes weren't optimised and 2. their power figures on the dyno really didn't mean much. I'm not going to get in to that debate, nor do I wish to see any further opinion on that, as I am stating my opinion only. But with your spec KMud, and in complete honesty, I expected you to be faster if you go by your engine specs, especially the larger cam and LS2 heads. Gearing will hep you out of the hole, but in a manual off the line the 3.9's may spin up easy without really good rubber, but a manual should give the range to pull higher top end and no slip through the stallie.)Admittedly my race experience helped, but truthfully mine had a baby cam, standard heads, small tri-Y headers and exhaust, the usual OTR, auto box on standard stall, 3.9 diff gears and the mafless tune and still returned over 30 mpg home on the motorway. We used to see it all the time in Oz where cars were supposedly tuned well. We beat them easily on the blacktop at Willowbank. And then the exact same car came to us and it was retuned and hey presto they went faster, but always considering the street manners to keep them sensible on the road as well.
To Araf, I understand your points, but I do not see the need for anyone to read the tune. It all depends on who you partner up with and their ethics. If I put a tune in to your ute would it matter if it was locked or unlocked??? It's a debatable point, and there is no right or wrong answer, just a simple case of it's locked or unlocked. All tuners should note that their tunes are locked or unlocked prior to accepting money. That is the way to build loyalty through honesty and etiquette in my opinion. As I say it is a performance upgrade in my eyes.
Anyway this is my last post on this thread, and like I say is simply my opinion. No offence or upset to anyone is intended at all.
Cheers,
Leatherman
Ok, a bit embarrassed! first attempt to read the ecu the auto detect button came up with E40 ecu and thats what I tried to read (this is where the locked code came from). Ringram emailed me with some pointers so tried again tonight, first attempt I got a different option but same locked message, third attempt I got E38 ecu and that worked!! so third time lucky I think and the tuner had not locked the ecu, so now managed to get my tune onto the computer! baby steps...........baby steps! i'll get there!
MyM8V8 said:
Irony here is that they still have (your)useful information from your work that may be used to their advantage in future, to increase the tuners revenue (without your permission).
Or the correct thinking is...at a bargain price, the car owner gets access to a vast wealth of knowledge and ability ( LOL not in all cases I know...maybe fewer cases rather than many ) to make his car go faster. Often that knowledge is gained at the tuners own vast expense over many years working at cars, before they move into the commercial world of selling the use of that knowledge to otherseg, if a tuner is supplying packages, whether just tuning, engine builds, full installs etc etc..and they are reliable. Then clearly that tuner hasnt just learnt on those recent builds as you seem to imply might happen. Obviously all work carried out will be a learning experience to a degree, a tuner should have a very good sound background before they start selling to anyone.
Now if the same tuner was putting out cars that were always blowing up, getting little real use...you would then have to question what was going on. Is the tuner learning at the customers expense ? Which sounds more akin to what you are suggesting with the tuner gaining knowledge at this level. That sort of setup isnt so acceptable, even less so than locking a tune.
ARAF said:
If you've paid an expert to tune the ECU on your car, why would you want to then play with the parameters?
As my previous comments...define expert ?And people really do the strangest things. Including as Leatherman says. Steal work and try and re-distribute as their own.
Sometimes locking is as much for the car owners protection as the tuners.
As said before, generally I dont agree with locking, but I can very much see both sides of the argument knowing how hard and expensive it has been over the years to gain any knowledge I have.
TheLeatherman said:
In truth yes. All the power figures that were noted prior to TR mean't a lot of the guys and gals should be much faster and they weren't. To me that gives two core issues: 1. their tunes weren't optimised and 2. their power figures on the dyno really didn't mean much. I'm not going to get in to that debate, nor do I wish to see any further opinion on that, as I am stating my opinion only. But with your spec KMud, and in complete honesty, I expected you to be faster if you go by your engine specs, especially the larger cam and LS2 heads. Gearing will hep you out of the hole, but in a manual off the line the 3.9's may spin up easy without really good rubber, but a manual should give the range to pull higher top end and no slip through the stallie.
Admittedly my race experience helped, but truthfully mine had a baby cam, standard heads, small tri-Y headers and exhaust, the usual OTR, auto box on standard stall, 3.9 diff gears and the mafless tune and still returned over 30 mpg home on the motorway. We used to see it all the time in Oz where cars were supposedly tuned well. We beat them easily on the blacktop at Willowbank. And then the exact same car came to us and it was retuned and hey presto they went faster, but always considering the street manners to keep them sensible on the road as well.
{...}
I appreciate what you're saying, although I would hope even the most basic tune could adequately find its way through a full throttle pull with decent AFR and spark timing (which should be enough for TR, or am I missing something?).Admittedly my race experience helped, but truthfully mine had a baby cam, standard heads, small tri-Y headers and exhaust, the usual OTR, auto box on standard stall, 3.9 diff gears and the mafless tune and still returned over 30 mpg home on the motorway. We used to see it all the time in Oz where cars were supposedly tuned well. We beat them easily on the blacktop at Willowbank. And then the exact same car came to us and it was retuned and hey presto they went faster, but always considering the street manners to keep them sensible on the road as well.
{...}
My HP figure was estimated, could easily be less. My tune is only half a tune - my fueling (and economy) is good, but my spark is not optimised. I have a FAST to throw on, then I may actually get the thing on a dyno (although tempted to do better heads too first). I was still accelerating when I crossed the line, stock cv8 gearing sucks (as did my launches and gear changes).
edit to add, your setup is really efficient, which is what I am going for. Kudos.
Edited by KMud on Sunday 28th December 23:06
stevieturbo said:
As said before, generally I dont agree with locking, but I can very much see both sides of the argument knowing how hard and expensive it has been over the years to gain any knowledge I have.
As can I. As I also said, I'm not sure that locking is allowed under EC competition laws, as it excludes all others from completing further work.
ARAF said:
As can I.
As I also said, I'm not sure that locking is allowed under EC competition laws, as it excludes all others from completing further work.
The ecu can be wiped and you can start from scratch.As I also said, I'm not sure that locking is allowed under EC competition laws, as it excludes all others from completing further work.
Other tuning software like Ecutek also locks the ecu so only Ecutek dealers can access it.
I'm sure there are others out there too.
But if you return to the dealer they can restore it to factory again and you can do what you want with it
And to the same end...the OEM ecu is "locked" and any tampering with it will invalidate warranty, and tampering with it is no doubt frowned upon as far as emissions laws go, as almost all tampering will affect those often negatively.
I'm sure most EC rules would dislike that more than locking a tuned ecu.
The only reason people can tune the factory ecu, is because other companies have effectively hacked them to allow them to be reprogrammed.
TheLeatherman said:
To chirp in here,
Gareth - just to restate this is only my stance on this topic. Everything else we pretty much agree upon!!! I do not, in any way, want you or any other forum member to be under the illusion that I am attacking you in any way mate :-)
No worries Mate and no offence taken at all. We're all good and always will be.Gareth - just to restate this is only my stance on this topic. Everything else we pretty much agree upon!!! I do not, in any way, want you or any other forum member to be under the illusion that I am attacking you in any way mate :-)
Edited by TheLeatherman on Sunday 28th December 13:06
I stick by my gut feeling that being locked out of your own car with someone holding the keys is not a good thing.
The debating issue here, for me, when you dig down is really, who owns the kit, not how much is invested anywhere?
Mailer555. When you get the tune, flick it over to someone knowledgeable to have a squint over. I can't help because I know nothing about VVE tuning on an E38. Although efilive has a brilliant facility for comparing the new tune to the stock one. It lists all the changes made to the tables and you can instantly see what is going on (or not as the case may be).
I still suspect you have a mechanical issue as there are still many unanswered questions on this thread regarding the build. All I can say is that I had a very similar set up and it went like Merry Joe.
MyM8V8 said:
TheLeatherman said:
To chirp in here,
Gareth - just to restate this is only my stance on this topic. Everything else we pretty much agree upon!!! I do not, in any way, want you or any other forum member to be under the illusion that I am attacking you in any way mate :-)
No worries Mate and no offence taken at all. We're all good and always will be.Gareth - just to restate this is only my stance on this topic. Everything else we pretty much agree upon!!! I do not, in any way, want you or any other forum member to be under the illusion that I am attacking you in any way mate :-)
Edited by TheLeatherman on Sunday 28th December 13:06
I stick by my gut feeling that being locked out of your own car with someone holding the keys is not a good thing.
The debating issue here, for me, when you dig down is really, who owns the kit, not how much is invested anywhere?
Mailer555. When you get the tune, flick it over to someone knowledgeable to have a squint over. I can't help because I know nothing about VVE tuning on an E38. Although efilive has a brilliant facility for comparing the new tune to the stock one. It lists all the changes made to the tables and you can instantly see what is going on (or not as the case may be).
I still suspect you have a mechanical issue as there are still many unanswered questions on this thread regarding the build. All I can say is that I had a very similar set up and it went like Merry Joe.
mailer555 said:
I thought I had answered everything along the way? If there is still something that needs answered I'll try my best to answer your questions. I've had someone take a quick look at the tune tonight, his response was interesting, it looks like the fine is identical to the hsv w427 tune! I still need to confirm this, but it could explain a lot! If there is any unanswered questions I'll try my best to answers them cos this whole thread has helped me out a lot in getting to the bottom of this!!
So your tuner has copied in a tune for a 7.0L LS7 engine with different dynamics to your 6.0L motor? Great.(The questions I posed earlier were about your cam and pushrod/rocker install and the methodology. If it's not right it could explain the problems up top?)
MyM8V8 said:
So your tuner has copied in a tune for a 7.0L LS7 engine with different dynamics to your 6.0L motor? Great.
(The questions I posed earlier were about your cam and pushrod/rocker install and the methodology. If it's not right it could explain the problems up top?)
That's what it looks like at the moment.(The questions I posed earlier were about your cam and pushrod/rocker install and the methodology. If it's not right it could explain the problems up top?)
Ok, full details of the cam and install.
Cam is lunati voodoo 227/233 spec has been posted so I'll not go in to that
Valve springs are comp cam's duel springs
Push rods are comp cam's, standard length just slightly thicker
Rockers have not been changed.
This was a package for an LS2 bought from wild vetts.
Then bought a 3 bolt top sprocket from monkfish and spoke to Rodger about the install. On his advice it was installed at true TDC.
All oil seals, collets and retaining plates were also included in the kit.
On top of that I have fitted:
Wortec headers and high flow cats
Custom made X pipe in s/s
Modified s/s walkinshaw backboxes
Vararam OTRCAI
Let me know if there is any more details I need to add to this, I could get part numbers from the com cam's boxes in the garage if that helps?
MyM8V8 said:
So your tuner has copied in a tune for a 7.0L LS7 engine with different dynamics to your 6.0L motor? Great.
(The questions I posed earlier were about your cam and pushrod/rocker install and the methodology. If it's not right it could explain the problems up top?)
And you ask why tune files should be locked....(The questions I posed earlier were about your cam and pushrod/rocker install and the methodology. If it's not right it could explain the problems up top?)
As I said, people do the strangest things !
stevieturbo said:
MyM8V8 said:
So your tuner has copied in a tune for a 7.0L LS7 engine with different dynamics to your 6.0L motor? Great.
(The questions I posed earlier were about your cam and pushrod/rocker install and the methodology. If it's not right it could explain the problems up top?)
And you ask why tune files should be locked....(The questions I posed earlier were about your cam and pushrod/rocker install and the methodology. If it's not right it could explain the problems up top?)
As I said, people do the strangest things !
(for the avoidance of doubt my argument is for the ECU NOT to be locked, especially in the above case)
Edited by MyM8V8 on Monday 29th December 13:02
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