Forced Induction Interchillers
Discussion
wormus said:
Thanks for your answers. How effective would the 12.5" version be compared to the full size one, do you have any results? Not keen on cutting the crash bar, the laws are pretty strict over here.
The temps will be the same it will just take a little longer to reach those temps. GenF-GTS said:
The temps will be the same it will just take a little longer to reach those temps.
So the recovery time of the IC circuit is shorter with the bigger unit but what does that mean in real terms? For example, in 30 deg C ambient, how long can I go WOT before the smaller chiller fails to keep IATs under control? Appreciate there are several variables including water capacity and supercharger efficiency/rpm but I would like to understand why I would buy the larger one & cut the car vs simply fitting the smaller unit? To add, mine has a reservoir/tank for the IC circuit which, being a standard Magnusson item, holds about 3-5 litres?
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 30th December 12:48
wormus said:
So the recovery time of the IC circuit is shorter with the bigger unit but what does that mean in real terms? For example, in 30 deg C ambient, how long can I go WOT before the smaller chiller fails to keep IATs under control? Appreciate there are several variables including water capacity and supercharger efficiency/rpm but I would like to understand why I would buy the larger one & cut the car vs simply fitting the smaller unit?
To add, mine has a reservoir/tank for the IC circuit which, being a standard Magnusson item, holds about 3-5 litres?
There is several benefits to the larger chiller, it will remain colder longer, when you go WOT it will give you a colder IAT as you are spreading the heated coolant over a larger surface that surface cannot get as hot and the chiller itself will retain it's cold temperature longer. It is so efficient you can reach your min temp say after 10-15min of driving switch the AC off continue normal cruising and still have below ambient temps for 15-20min. To add, mine has a reservoir/tank for the IC circuit which, being a standard Magnusson item, holds about 3-5 litres?
Edited by wormus on Wednesday 30th December 12:48
The smaller chiller will do similar but the time frame of everything will be about 50% longer since the internal capacity is 50% smaller.
A reservoir is great as the more volume you have the better, however if too large or your intercooler pump is too slow this may come at a slight disadvantage to the temps, the faster the pump the better, many aftermarket pumps fall on their ass have a read here: http://www.lingenfelter.com/LPEforumfiles/showthre... your magnuson pump will likely be the bosch CTSV pump.
I recently made a 6.5L reservoir for mine
It works great you can see in this comparison video:
On the left reservoir no interchiller 0-225km/h (0-140mph)
on the right reservoir with interchiller 0-225km/h (0-140mph)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZQ7zX4Oz4g
Sorry for being a bit dim - would it be a waste of time to fit the smaller unit to a 6.2 litre; 800hp car running a TVS2300 @ 14psi boost?
The video is interesting and impressive, although the temperature of the one on the right appears to increase more rapidly.
The video is interesting and impressive, although the temperature of the one on the right appears to increase more rapidly.
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 30th December 17:39
GenF-GTS said:
The air enters the front bar it hits these tiny hoses and the air goes over and under the hoses....it then travels through the radiators as per normal.
It is impossible that these hoses located several inches into the bar will force air out of the bar...simply impossible the air speed is too much and too fast it has air behind the air that you are measuring further pushing all air that enters that front bumper is going to go through the radiator as per normal.
It is simply impossible to suggest that the air that enters the front bumper can be forced to leave the front bumper or have less cooling effect because of a couple of small hoses.
I'm not suggesting that the airflow isn't sufficient.It is impossible that these hoses located several inches into the bar will force air out of the bar...simply impossible the air speed is too much and too fast it has air behind the air that you are measuring further pushing all air that enters that front bumper is going to go through the radiator as per normal.
It is simply impossible to suggest that the air that enters the front bumper can be forced to leave the front bumper or have less cooling effect because of a couple of small hoses.
I'm merely pointing out that your claims that its impossible to effect the airflow shows that fluid dynamics isn't your subject and, especially as you are offering these kits for sale to the members of this forum, im sure you would want to provide the correct information so that folk can make an informed choice.
And, it's not impossible, it's a mathematical fact, any obstruction to the free flow of the air will have a negative effect on the cooling efficiency.
Nor am I suggesting the air does a 180 or deflect around the bumper, which is just a silly statement.
FYI the VOSA regulations in this country are very strict, I'd imagine that any engineer willing to underwrite the modification of the front crash bar would have to provide crash test data.
Looking at the photo of the install it does look like the crash bar is almost completely severed, and that the top "rail" only has been retained, possibly for cosmetics. Perhaps you can clarify how much has been removed. How could you box the crash bar without dramatically effecting the airflow through the interchiller.
Edited by Xpuffin on Wednesday 30th December 16:45
Vosa would not have a clue & most insurance I doubt would either
Go to be said though , that front bar looks dire & just boxing it & saying yea thats strong enough mate dont really work ,esp when a manufacturer spend fortunes on testing & development then someone just chops it up & decides it will be fine
But you could also say that about tubbing etc
Spot weld & mig welds act very different on impact
Go to be said though , that front bar looks dire & just boxing it & saying yea thats strong enough mate dont really work ,esp when a manufacturer spend fortunes on testing & development then someone just chops it up & decides it will be fine
But you could also say that about tubbing etc
Spot weld & mig welds act very different on impact
Xpuffin said:
Looking at the photo of the install it does look like the crash bar is almost completely severed, and that the top "rail" only has been retained, possibly for cosmetics. Perhaps you can clarify how much has been removed.
The rear and top of the crash bar remain in place, the cut out section is the bottom and the front. The chiller is bolted to the top of the crash bar. You would also have the option to cut the bottom and the rear instead of the bottom and the front.
Again this is only with the large chiller and only on this model, all other models even with the large chiller do not require cutting of the bar.
You can easily box the crash bar back in place, the chiller "almost fit" entirely within the crash bar when installing we pushed it in and the bolts for the chiller were almost exposed enough to put nuts on, we relieved the front panel before removing it to see if that would help and it made a difference but not enough to get the nuts on the bolts of the chiller.
Xpuffin said:
How could you box the crash bar without dramatically effecting the airflow through the interchiller.
The interchiller is a sealed unit you maybe confusing how it works, it does not require air flow. raving said:
Vosa would not have a clue & most insurance I doubt would either
Go to be said though , that front bar looks dire & just boxing it & saying yea thats strong enough mate dont really work ,esp when a manufacturer spend fortunes on testing & development then someone just chops it up & decides it will be fine
But you could also say that about tubbing etc
Spot weld & mig welds act very different on impact
The list of modifications that can be done to our cars that are not legal is as long as your arm and then some. Go to be said though , that front bar looks dire & just boxing it & saying yea thats strong enough mate dont really work ,esp when a manufacturer spend fortunes on testing & development then someone just chops it up & decides it will be fine
But you could also say that about tubbing etc
Spot weld & mig welds act very different on impact
End of the day if you dont want to cut into the crash bar thats totally fine, buy the smaller chiller or dont buy a chiller at all.
wormus said:
Sorry for being a bit dim - would it be a waste of time to fit the smaller unit to a 6.2 litre; 800hp car running a TVS2300 @ 14psi boost?
The video is interesting and impressive, although the temperature of the one on the right appears to increase more rapidly.
No it's not a waste of time you will still get the same temps, the cooling source "the R134a" is still the same temperature it will simply take a little longer to reach that min temp as there is less transfer area. The video is interesting and impressive, although the temperature of the one on the right appears to increase more rapidly.
Edited by wormus on Wednesday 30th December 17:39
Just so you guys know we use the hoses that we use because they are better than regular crimp style hoses.
Here are some reasons why:
1. regular crimp style hoses trap air and PAG oil in the crimp, over time this turns acidic this is really bad for the rubber hose.
2. the clamps we use do not trap air, they give a better seal than regular crimping, the clamps bite into the fittings as the fittings have a specific bite section on the fitting. They have a stronger clamping force than regular crimp style, if you require more information on this please ask.
3. The hoses and fittings are tested to SAE J2064 standards they actually exceed those standards, the burst pressure on the hoses as tested with the fittings we use is 2500psi, this is impossible for your AC system to achieve, thus will never burst.
4. the fittings have a tensile strength on the weakest part (the radius) of 1600kg / 3527lbs
5. The manufacturer we buy the hoses and fittings from warranties them as long as we use their hoses, clamps and fittings, as such we warranty the entire system, but on the flip side of this it shows how confident they are in their product that it will not fail and should it fail which is HIGHLY unlikely it will be replaced.
6. We have not had 1 single leak from any of the systems that have been produced and installed, which as you guys have seen has been a boat load of systems in a very short period of time.
Additional info on the install and crash bar:
The install on the LS1 GTO, the 18.5" interchiller we used on this car was unable to be mounted behind the crash bar as the owner of the car had additional trans coolers, oil coolers etc, 1 was removed prior to install so we could actually access the condenser.
The 18.5" chiller will fit behind the crash bar, the small 12.5" unit will also fit there too, if no additional coolers are in the way.
The installation is very neat and tidy and is unseen when installed as we have it.
Here are some reasons why:
1. regular crimp style hoses trap air and PAG oil in the crimp, over time this turns acidic this is really bad for the rubber hose.
2. the clamps we use do not trap air, they give a better seal than regular crimping, the clamps bite into the fittings as the fittings have a specific bite section on the fitting. They have a stronger clamping force than regular crimp style, if you require more information on this please ask.
3. The hoses and fittings are tested to SAE J2064 standards they actually exceed those standards, the burst pressure on the hoses as tested with the fittings we use is 2500psi, this is impossible for your AC system to achieve, thus will never burst.
4. the fittings have a tensile strength on the weakest part (the radius) of 1600kg / 3527lbs
5. The manufacturer we buy the hoses and fittings from warranties them as long as we use their hoses, clamps and fittings, as such we warranty the entire system, but on the flip side of this it shows how confident they are in their product that it will not fail and should it fail which is HIGHLY unlikely it will be replaced.
6. We have not had 1 single leak from any of the systems that have been produced and installed, which as you guys have seen has been a boat load of systems in a very short period of time.
Additional info on the install and crash bar:
The install on the LS1 GTO, the 18.5" interchiller we used on this car was unable to be mounted behind the crash bar as the owner of the car had additional trans coolers, oil coolers etc, 1 was removed prior to install so we could actually access the condenser.
The 18.5" chiller will fit behind the crash bar, the small 12.5" unit will also fit there too, if no additional coolers are in the way.
The installation is very neat and tidy and is unseen when installed as we have it.
kaw said:
Have you a price list for the uk
no advertising on the forum you will need to facebook or email me: http://www.facebook.com/ForcedInductionInterchille...GenF-GTS said:
Additional info on the install and crash bar:
The install on the LS1 GTO, the 18.5" interchiller we used on this car was unable to be mounted behind the crash bar as the owner of the car had additional trans coolers, oil coolers etc, 1 was removed prior to install so we could actually access the condenser.
The 18.5" chiller will fit behind the crash bar, the small 12.5" unit will also fit there too, if no additional coolers are in the way.
The installation is very neat and tidy and is unseen when installed as we have it.
is the standard air to water IC required if the chiller is fitted? It would be good to get some clarity...preferably with pictures.wormus said:
So now the big one does fit? is the standard air to water IC required if the chiller is fitted? It would be good to get some clarity...preferably with pictures.
As I understand it, there is a bypass valve with the kit to prevent coolant passing through the std intercooler rad because on hot days, this intercooler rad becomes a heater. Remembering that the chiller will reduce the s/c coolant to below ambient. So, good question I’ve also wondered, why not remove the std intercooler rad altogether, thus improving the airflow through the remaining rads. is the standard air to water IC required if the chiller is fitted? It would be good to get some clarity...preferably with pictures.Downside though, if the aircon fails during a journey, then there will be zero intercooling, perhaps ok if driven very carefully to get home. The original vxr500’s had no intercooling as std?.....I assume these have not all self detonated.......
Are there any chiller installs that have actually removed the charge cooler rad altogether ?
wormus said:
So now the big one does fit? is the standard air to water IC required if the chiller is fitted? It would be good to get some clarity...preferably with pictures.
It is dependent on how many additional coolers you have mounted in the space there, if you need to measure the area the chillers are: is the standard air to water IC required if the chiller is fitted? It would be good to get some clarity...preferably with pictures.18.5" long 2.9" wide
12.5" long 2.9" wide
rich24v said:
As I understand it, there is a bypass valve with the kit to prevent coolant passing through the std intercooler rad because on hot days, this intercooler rad becomes a heater. Remembering that the chiller will reduce the s/c coolant to below ambient. So, good question I’ve also wondered, why not remove the std intercooler rad altogether, thus improving the airflow through the remaining rads.
Downside though, if the aircon fails during a journey, then there will be zero intercooling, perhaps ok if driven very carefully to get home. The original vxr500’s had no intercooling as std?.....I assume these have not all self detonated.......
Are there any chiller installs that have actually removed the charge cooler rad altogether ?
You can remove it all together if you wish, however if it isn't in the way or effecting other cooling aids then there is little point in removing it. Downside though, if the aircon fails during a journey, then there will be zero intercooling, perhaps ok if driven very carefully to get home. The original vxr500’s had no intercooling as std?.....I assume these have not all self detonated.......
Are there any chiller installs that have actually removed the charge cooler rad altogether ?
In the highly unlikely event that you do have an AC failure and you didn't retain the heat exchanger it would be fine, the intercooler temps wouldn't increase too dramatically if not going into boost.
Hi all,
A very very interesting thread, but I seem to be losing the real plot in that...
The position of an interchiller in the airflow is irrelevant as it doesn’t require any additional cooling, so why is it positioned where it is? Why can’t it be for example behind the radiators on the left in an upright position and therefore out of the way but also nearer the water pump / tank and AC compressor?
The size of the interchiller seems to dictate the rate at which the water cools after a "run" but not the duration of the run itself e.g.(small interchiller = 1/4 mile run then 20 minutes cooling) or (big = 1/4 mile run then 10 min cooling). If this is correct?
As the volume of cool water is insufficient for anything more than 10 seconds of boost, a larger volume of cooled water is required to increase the duration of the run but in turn a larger tank will require significantly longer to cool down e.g. (small tank = 1/4 mile then 20 minutes cooling) or (big tank = 1 mile but then 40 min cooling). If this is correct?
What does this look like in the real world or as a daily driver, 20 minutes to warm up the engine and cool the intercooler followed by a quick burst of acceleration and then another 20 minutes of cruising to cool everything down again?
As the purpose of pulling ignition timing is to protect from detonation and this is not being disabled (a good thing), then the goal is surely to reduce the Maximum IAT's during any combination of hard acceleration and cruising to the point that pulling timing and therefore reducing bhp is never a requirement, but i can’t see here what combination's of interchillers and tanks are required to achieve it?
What about 2, 3, or 4 big interchillers in series with no tank?
Sorry if this is reading a bit like the New Years Day Sherlock Holmes plot.
A very very interesting thread, but I seem to be losing the real plot in that...
The position of an interchiller in the airflow is irrelevant as it doesn’t require any additional cooling, so why is it positioned where it is? Why can’t it be for example behind the radiators on the left in an upright position and therefore out of the way but also nearer the water pump / tank and AC compressor?
The size of the interchiller seems to dictate the rate at which the water cools after a "run" but not the duration of the run itself e.g.(small interchiller = 1/4 mile run then 20 minutes cooling) or (big = 1/4 mile run then 10 min cooling). If this is correct?
As the volume of cool water is insufficient for anything more than 10 seconds of boost, a larger volume of cooled water is required to increase the duration of the run but in turn a larger tank will require significantly longer to cool down e.g. (small tank = 1/4 mile then 20 minutes cooling) or (big tank = 1 mile but then 40 min cooling). If this is correct?
What does this look like in the real world or as a daily driver, 20 minutes to warm up the engine and cool the intercooler followed by a quick burst of acceleration and then another 20 minutes of cruising to cool everything down again?
As the purpose of pulling ignition timing is to protect from detonation and this is not being disabled (a good thing), then the goal is surely to reduce the Maximum IAT's during any combination of hard acceleration and cruising to the point that pulling timing and therefore reducing bhp is never a requirement, but i can’t see here what combination's of interchillers and tanks are required to achieve it?
What about 2, 3, or 4 big interchillers in series with no tank?
Sorry if this is reading a bit like the New Years Day Sherlock Holmes plot.
YME said:
Hi all,
A very very interesting thread, but I seem to be losing the real plot in that...
The position of an interchiller in the airflow is irrelevant as it doesn’t require any additional cooling, so why is it positioned where it is? Why can’t it be for example behind the radiators on the left in an upright position and therefore out of the way but also nearer the water pump / tank and AC compressor?
You can mount it where ever you like, hell you can mount it in the boot if you so wish, your only issue is you are feeding coolant to/from the interchiller as well as the AC lines, there is quite a lot of hoses in the position you have mentioned. A very very interesting thread, but I seem to be losing the real plot in that...
The position of an interchiller in the airflow is irrelevant as it doesn’t require any additional cooling, so why is it positioned where it is? Why can’t it be for example behind the radiators on the left in an upright position and therefore out of the way but also nearer the water pump / tank and AC compressor?
If anyone has their own ideas about mounting locations they wish to use, they are more than welcome to try, we will simply provide extra AC hose.
Mounting behind the crash bar, or within it keeps things simple, I can totally understand it if your laws do not allow you to alter the crash bar, you can mount behind it and you can also create more room if need be by relocating the radiator/condenser etc back about 1" by making up a simple bracket and moving it all backwards 1"
YME said:
The size of the interchiller seems to dictate the rate at which the water cools after a "run" but not the duration of the run itself e.g.(small interchiller = 1/4 mile run then 20 minutes cooling) or (big = 1/4 mile run then 10 min cooling). If this is correct?
This is far from correct, we can get to near the minimal temp within a couple of minutes.Speed testing from full operational temps: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydax3oIz9cA
(Note: car does not need to be at highway speeds in order for system to work fast, it actually works faster in lower speeds, road was used as it's 1 single speed for the video)
YME said:
As the volume of cool water is insufficient for anything more than 10 seconds of boost, a larger volume of cooled water is required to increase the duration of the run but in turn a larger tank will require significantly longer to cool down e.g. (small tank = 1/4 mile then 20 minutes cooling) or (big tank = 1 mile but then 40 min cooling). If this is correct?
What does this look like in the real world or as a daily driver, 20 minutes to warm up the engine and cool the intercooler followed by a quick burst of acceleration and then another 20 minutes of cruising to cool everything down again?
The coolant, interchiller and the 6.5L reservoir on my car are more than sufficient, when we were completing before/after dyno comparisons we had to actually do 6-7 dyno runs with the chiller off and the bypass valve closed just to get heat back into the coolant and chiller simply to get it back to normal temps like it would be if it had no chiller installed. The chiller holds it's cold temperature very well. What does this look like in the real world or as a daily driver, 20 minutes to warm up the engine and cool the intercooler followed by a quick burst of acceleration and then another 20 minutes of cruising to cool everything down again?
For instance if i drive for say 20-30min then switch the chiller off i will still be below ambient temps for another 20-30min as the chiller retains it's cold temp very well.
The time for me with the additional 6.5L reservoir to reach my min temp is about 6-7min
YME said:
As the purpose of pulling ignition timing is to protect from detonation and this is not being disabled (a good thing), then the goal is surely to reduce the Maximum IAT's during any combination of hard acceleration and cruising to the point that pulling timing and therefore reducing bhp is never a requirement, but i can’t see here what combination's of interchillers and tanks are required to achieve it?
What about 2, 3, or 4 big interchillers in series with no tank?
Sorry if this is reading a bit like the New Years Day Sherlock Holmes plot.
You could run multiple chillers however it would take up a lot space and would not be cost effective, the single interchiller is more than capable of drastically improving your cars performance and cooling effect. It doesn't take very long at all for the interchiller to reach min temps even with a large reservoir, it takes a lot of constant heat in order to get heat back into the system. What about 2, 3, or 4 big interchillers in series with no tank?
Sorry if this is reading a bit like the New Years Day Sherlock Holmes plot.
As said we had to do 6-7 dyno runs with the chiller off and the bypass valve closed (bypass valve closed means there is no front heat exchanger for cooling, it is literally a non cooled loop, if the valve was open then likely this would be 10-15 runs to get it to be back to normal operational temps) Also take into consideration 6-7 full throttle dyno runs is actually quite a lot and you are highly unlikely to even have enough road to do this if out driving, add in the fact that you would actually have the chiller turned ON, unlike us on the dyno with it off trying to get the system back to non interchiller temps.
Edited by GenF-GTS on Sunday 3rd January 16:57
Thought I would update you guys on the LS1 Monaro CV8Z we did.
When we installed the chiller on Wills car we informed him like we inform most people his intercooler pump is crap, he had decent results from the chiller but now since changing to the top of the line pump we recommend his temps are way down, he has also taken our advice of installing a custom made reservoir and in todays hot humid weather these were the results. This is an LS1 with the older style magnuson 2300 that usually run 50-60c intake temps, he is now getting 18c chiller only and 22c with cabin and chiller. Next step is installing blower spacer plates which get the blower off the engine and will drop the temps even further.
(Condensation build up is generally not a problem when drag racing as you have the bonnet open in the pits, there is plenty of air and you're not trapping it to form condensation.)
When we installed the chiller on Wills car we informed him like we inform most people his intercooler pump is crap, he had decent results from the chiller but now since changing to the top of the line pump we recommend his temps are way down, he has also taken our advice of installing a custom made reservoir and in todays hot humid weather these were the results. This is an LS1 with the older style magnuson 2300 that usually run 50-60c intake temps, he is now getting 18c chiller only and 22c with cabin and chiller. Next step is installing blower spacer plates which get the blower off the engine and will drop the temps even further.
(Condensation build up is generally not a problem when drag racing as you have the bonnet open in the pits, there is plenty of air and you're not trapping it to form condensation.)
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