Discussion
Today I took my car in for her remap and it's been a bitter sweet affair that's for sure. The remapping itself went fine however when I got the results back the car didn't make as much power as I was hoping for and the chap I use to map the car reported that the engine itself wanted to give a lot more and was more than capable of doing so however (and here's where my alarm bells went off) he said that I have detonation happening. It was never in the same place and he felt that it was perhaps down to a bad batch of fuel (I always use V-Power peronsally and always have done). On top of that it's been a warm day here today, we got sun for once, and the temperature in the dyno bay was quite high as well, the poor guy was sweating haha.
He felt that if there was no detonation he would have expected to see 450 with what's been done. This is speculative of course, I need to get to the bottom of this detonation and why it was/is happening. Has anyone experienced problems like this? He felt that due to the movement of the detonation i.e. it not occuring in the same place everytime it was more closely tied to a fuel issue than an injector blockage say.
Modifications:
- Wortec exhaust
- VCM intake (K&N Induction Kit)
- MSD Coils
- Magnecor leads
- ProFlow Headers (with decats)
- FAST LSXR 102
- FAST Fuel Rails
Here is my print out after the remap, I haven't got one pre-remap. She still made good power in my opinion.
Like I said bitter sweet and I'm not sure what my next step will be with her to try and sort this out. I don't even know what detonation sounds like or why my car is doing it. Bad fuel seems logical but what are the chances? I just don't know.
He felt that if there was no detonation he would have expected to see 450 with what's been done. This is speculative of course, I need to get to the bottom of this detonation and why it was/is happening. Has anyone experienced problems like this? He felt that due to the movement of the detonation i.e. it not occuring in the same place everytime it was more closely tied to a fuel issue than an injector blockage say.
Modifications:
- Wortec exhaust
- VCM intake (K&N Induction Kit)
- MSD Coils
- Magnecor leads
- ProFlow Headers (with decats)
- FAST LSXR 102
- FAST Fuel Rails
Here is my print out after the remap, I haven't got one pre-remap. She still made good power in my opinion.
Like I said bitter sweet and I'm not sure what my next step will be with her to try and sort this out. I don't even know what detonation sounds like or why my car is doing it. Bad fuel seems logical but what are the chances? I just don't know.
Edited by Yanayaya on Friday 22 July 23:11
Edited by Yanayaya on Monday 25th July 20:50
I'm not hugely up on remapping, however an experienced auto electrical/diagnostic tech.
Detonation normally occurs when you have a forced induction system running over advanced timing, this usually occurs on an engine that was NA and the had FI added , or a system running too high compression for the forced induction being used.
Now your system running predominantly stock without FI as far as I can see, will be ECU controlled using the knock sensors to retard timing where required.
Either you have a faulty knock sensor or your "tuner" is looking for a bit more cash for his time.
If he is indeed worth his salt he should have a very good grasp of these concepts already and should be advising you accordingly.
Any Q's gimme a shout, as I say I'm not a "re-map guy", but over 30 years experience in electrical diagnostics.
Detonation normally occurs when you have a forced induction system running over advanced timing, this usually occurs on an engine that was NA and the had FI added , or a system running too high compression for the forced induction being used.
Now your system running predominantly stock without FI as far as I can see, will be ECU controlled using the knock sensors to retard timing where required.
Either you have a faulty knock sensor or your "tuner" is looking for a bit more cash for his time.
If he is indeed worth his salt he should have a very good grasp of these concepts already and should be advising you accordingly.
Any Q's gimme a shout, as I say I'm not a "re-map guy", but over 30 years experience in electrical diagnostics.
Yanayaya said:
MyM8V8 said:
+1 What kit did they use to map it. I.e what interface to the ECU?
EFI live, granted monkfish may be good but I'm in Aberdeen so it's almost the other end of the country for me not just a 15 min drive 
MyM8V8 said:
Wheres the AFR trace?
You need this as it'll help give some sort of indication what's going on. Also as you've said it was hot, and thin hot air wouldn't have helped, go back another day when it's cold and you've got dense cold air and you'll probably make more power. Although for the mods you've listed I think you made good power with nearly 390hp at the wheels without any head workHi,
Just an observation but your mapping sheet is calculating flywheel HP as 10.2% drivetrain loss (44hp) where as most use / accept its more like a 20% loss, so this would be (reverse engineered from the wheel HP) 97hp or 485.2 at the flywheel. The torque reading also supports this theory as 412 is good.
Hope this helps
Paul
Just an observation but your mapping sheet is calculating flywheel HP as 10.2% drivetrain loss (44hp) where as most use / accept its more like a 20% loss, so this would be (reverse engineered from the wheel HP) 97hp or 485.2 at the flywheel. The torque reading also supports this theory as 412 is good.
Hope this helps
Paul
wormus said:
Take it to Monkfish, sounds like your tuner doesn't know what he is doing.
ANNNND the very same thing would happen there.Personally I think the tuner does know his stuff, as any one who knows engines knows this.....
'A hot day will easily knock 20 bhp off your motor, especially in a hot dyno cell with no airflow through the bay.
Det used to be called 'pinking' but its the same thing. One thing I noticed on my car is that the metal fuel lines run extremely close to the cats, close enough to heat the fuel a significant amount in this weather, enough to make it boil probably.
If you fill up with super in a low turnover filling station, it can be bad/stale fuel, old tanks with s
t in them, ect ,but ill bet the heat is why your engine was not happy. Id be happy at 430 on a hot day if my goal was 450. Slap it back on the dyno on a frosty day,youll see 470.
Yanayaya said:
Today I took my car in for her remap and it's been a bitter sweet affair that's for sure. The remapping itself went fine however when I got the results back the car didn't make as much power as I was hoping for and the chap I use to map the car reported that the engine itself wanted to give a lot more and was more than capable of doing so however (and here's where my alarm bells went off) he said that I have detonation happening. It was never in the same place and he felt that it was perhaps down to a bad batch of fuel (I always use V-Power peronsally and always have done). On top of that it's been a warm day here today, we got sun for once, and the temperature in the dyno bay was quite high as well, the poor guy was sweating haha.
He felt that if there was no detonation he would have expected to see 450 with what's been done. This is speculative of course, I need to get to the bottom of this detonation and why it was/is happening. Has anyone experienced problems like this? He felt that due to the movement of the detonation i.e. it not occuring in the same place everytime it was more closely tied to a fuel issue than an injector blockage say.
Modifications:
- Wortec exhaust
- VCM intake
- MSD Coils
- Magnecor leads
- ProFlow Headers (with decats)
- FAST LSXR 102
- FAST Fuel Rails
Here is my print out after the remap, I haven't got one pre-remap. She still made good power in my opinion.
A lot of what is being said makes little sense.He felt that if there was no detonation he would have expected to see 450 with what's been done. This is speculative of course, I need to get to the bottom of this detonation and why it was/is happening. Has anyone experienced problems like this? He felt that due to the movement of the detonation i.e. it not occuring in the same place everytime it was more closely tied to a fuel issue than an injector blockage say.
Modifications:
- Wortec exhaust
- VCM intake
- MSD Coils
- Magnecor leads
- ProFlow Headers (with decats)
- FAST LSXR 102
- FAST Fuel Rails
Here is my print out after the remap, I haven't got one pre-remap. She still made good power in my opinion.
Firstly, whilst I hear people cry about bad fuel....it really isnt something I've ever experienced.
And if your tuner did not do a power run before any tuning took place.....really the entire session was a complete and utter waste of time. How on earth is he supposed to determine any gains from re-tuning if he didnt a baseline to compare with ? There is either some misinformation coming across there, or the tuner is stupid.
So you say you dont have a graph pre-tuning....I assume doesnt mean there is no graph at all ? I cant understand why any tuner with half a wit would not supply uo with before/after...because that's exactly the entire point of going there !
As for this mysterious detonation....how exactly is he detecting this ? Whilst yes it is possible this could happen with n/a it is also not that likely and shouldnt be a problem unless there is a major fault.
Again...how did everything run/sound on the baseline run before any tuning took place ? What tuning differences where there before this issue appeared ? etc etc
And warm day...big deal...I assume it was a warm day at start of tuning, and also at end of tuning....so same conditions. So again what was before and after ? That's the most important thing here.
gsd2000 said:
i assume you are seeing knock at around 4700rpm ish and the ecu is pulling timing?
Could be as innocuous as burst knock (ECU predicting knock likely, so pulling timing to avoid it - I would assume IAT is part of the calc). You are running a LSXR and stainless headers, correct? These could also make things noisier...your knock sensors might need desensitising a bit. You really need some logs to determine what's going on.
fred bloggs said:
wormus said:
Take it to Monkfish, sounds like your tuner doesn't know what he is doing.
ANNNND the very same thing would happen there.Personally I think the tuner does know his stuff, as any one who knows engines knows this.....
'A hot day will easily knock 20 bhp off your motor, especially in a hot dyno cell with no airflow through the bay.
Det used to be called 'pinking' but its the same thing. One thing I noticed on my car is that the metal fuel lines run extremely close to the cats, close enough to heat the fuel a significant amount in this weather, enough to make it boil probably.
If you fill up with super in a low turnover filling station, it can be bad/stale fuel, old tanks with s
t in them, ect ,but ill bet the heat is why your engine was not happy. Id be happy at 430 on a hot day if my goal was 450. Slap it back on the dyno on a frosty day,youll see 470.
If he had efilive he should have been logging during the dyno pulls. You would have been logging for knock (KR) amonst other things and any evidence would have been clear from the traces.
As per Stevie... No pre baseline dyno = zero point making any assumptions or conclusions.
A few points. Fast 102/102 on an otherwise stock engine will likely reduce low rpm power and give some extra at the very top.
A tune imo for this close to zero mod engine would perhaps add fuel up top and reduce some down low. (Need proper logging to confirm).
Question: How did the tuner tune the engine? What was their process?
Perhaps it was a spark timing only tune? If so then bad.
Number 1 is to get airflow model correct. I would also suggest that the spark timing on the late model engines is pretty ok anyway and cleaning up airflow model and delivered AFR is where the easy power is found.
A few points. Fast 102/102 on an otherwise stock engine will likely reduce low rpm power and give some extra at the very top.
A tune imo for this close to zero mod engine would perhaps add fuel up top and reduce some down low. (Need proper logging to confirm).
Question: How did the tuner tune the engine? What was their process?
Perhaps it was a spark timing only tune? If so then bad.
Number 1 is to get airflow model correct. I would also suggest that the spark timing on the late model engines is pretty ok anyway and cleaning up airflow model and delivered AFR is where the easy power is found.
Thanks for all the feedback guys, it's a massive help to me. Ok so at this stage it's important for me to state that the person who did this tuning is someone I have known for many years and whom I trust, he's being doing his job for a long time. This is however one of the first Holdens he has had to tune and his first time using EFI Live. When I spoke to him after the tune he explains the situation to me, what he saw and how he corrected it all however it was a little over my head at certain points. One of the statements he made however was exactly what gsd2000 said:
Could be as innocuous as burst knock (ECU predicting knock likely, so pulling timing to avoid it - I would assume IAT is part of the calc).
You are running a LSXR and stainless headers, correct? These could also make things noisier...your knock sensors might need desensitising a bit. You really need some logs to determine what's going on.Yeah my car has stainless headers and the lsxr and also decats. When I was talking about knock it did occur to me that the car was noiser which might affect it but not being a tuner I don't know.
gsd2000 said:
i assume you are seeing knock at around 4700rpm ish and the ecu is pulling timing?
He said that the engine was detecting knock and pulling timing yes. Here are my comments on the other points raised. Again thanks for this guys it's this sort of thing that helps me get my car where she needs to be.MyM8V8 said:
Wheres the AFR trace?
I'll get this posted tonight. I have another couple of graphs I was handed, I'll get them scanned.MyM8V8 said:
Appreciate that. Would be nice to get a look at the new map and/or do some logging. Have you got efilive?
Yes I do sir, the car was mapped using it fred bloggs said:
ANNNND the very same thing would happen there.
Personally I think the tuner does know his stuff, as any one who knows engines knows this.....
'A hot day will easily knock 20 bhp off your motor, especially in a hot dyno cell with no airflow through the bay.
Det used to be called 'pinking' but its the same thing. One thing I noticed on my car is that the metal fuel lines run extremely close to the cats, close enough to heat the fuel a significant amount in this weather, enough to make it boil probably.
If you fill up with super in a low turnover filling station, it can be bad/stale fuel, old tanks with st in them, ect ,but ill bet the heat is why your engine was not happy. Id be happy at 430 on a hot day if my goal was 450. Slap it back on the dyno on a frosty day,youll see 470.
Bad fuel wasn't something I'd really heard about much before but I did use one of the busiest shell stations in Aberdeen. It's impossible to tell if the fuel is stale or not really which is frustrating.Personally I think the tuner does know his stuff, as any one who knows engines knows this.....
'A hot day will easily knock 20 bhp off your motor, especially in a hot dyno cell with no airflow through the bay.
Det used to be called 'pinking' but its the same thing. One thing I noticed on my car is that the metal fuel lines run extremely close to the cats, close enough to heat the fuel a significant amount in this weather, enough to make it boil probably.
If you fill up with super in a low turnover filling station, it can be bad/stale fuel, old tanks with s
t in them, ect ,but ill bet the heat is why your engine was not happy. Id be happy at 430 on a hot day if my goal was 450. Slap it back on the dyno on a frosty day,youll see 470.Mud_ said:
Could be as innocuous as burst knock (ECU predicting knock likely, so pulling timing to avoid it - I would assume IAT is part of the calc). You are running a LSXR and stainless headers, correct? These could also make things noisier...your knock sensors might need desensitising a bit. You really need some logs to determine what's going on.
ringram said:
As per Stevie... No pre baseline dyno = zero point making any assumptions or conclusions.
A few points. Fast 102/102 on an otherwise stock engine will likely reduce low rpm power and give some extra at the very top.
A tune imo for this close to zero mod engine would perhaps add fuel up top and reduce some down low. (Need proper logging to confirm).
Question: How did the tuner tune the engine? What was their process?
Perhaps it was a spark timing only tune? If so then bad.
Number 1 is to get airflow model correct. I would also suggest that the spark timing on the late model engines is pretty ok anyway and cleaning up airflow model and delivered AFR is where the easy power is found.
The tuner did state that the engine was a little lumpy on idle so he raised that a bit to smooth it out which I would say is down to the new intake. I'll ask for the process as I know the chap so I'm sure he'd chat with me about it.A few points. Fast 102/102 on an otherwise stock engine will likely reduce low rpm power and give some extra at the very top.
A tune imo for this close to zero mod engine would perhaps add fuel up top and reduce some down low. (Need proper logging to confirm).
Question: How did the tuner tune the engine? What was their process?
Perhaps it was a spark timing only tune? If so then bad.
Number 1 is to get airflow model correct. I would also suggest that the spark timing on the late model engines is pretty ok anyway and cleaning up airflow model and delivered AFR is where the easy power is found.
Yanayaya said:
Thanks for all the feedback guys, it's a massive help to me. Ok so at this stage it's important for me to state that the person who did this tuning is someone I have known for many years and whom I trust, he's being doing his job for a long time. This is however one of the first Holdens he has had to tune and his first time using EFI Live. When I spoke to him after the tune he explains the situation to me, what he saw and how he corrected it all however it was a little over my head at certain points. One of the statements he made however was exactly what gsd2000 said:
Could be as innocuous as burst knock (ECU predicting knock likely, so pulling timing to avoid it - I would assume IAT is part of the calc).
You are running a LSXR and stainless headers, correct? These could also make things noisier...your knock sensors might need desensitising a bit. You really need some logs to determine what's going on.Yeah my car has stainless headers and the lsxr and also decats. When I was talking about knock it did occur to me that the car was noiser which might affect it but not being a tuner I don't know.
Ok, so your tuner used your original tune a the baseline. Did you download and save a copy? This is really important if you need to get back there when things turn to sgsd2000 said:
i assume you are seeing knock at around 4700rpm ish and the ecu is pulling timing?
He said that the engine was detecting knock and pulling timing yes. Here are my comments on the other points raised. Again thanks for this guys it's this sort of thing that helps me get my car where she needs to be.MyM8V8 said:
Wheres the AFR trace?
I'll get this posted tonight. I have another couple of graphs I was handed, I'll get them scanned.MyM8V8 said:
Appreciate that. Would be nice to get a look at the new map and/or do some logging. Have you got efilive?
Yes I do sir, the car was mapped using it fred bloggs said:
ANNNND the very same thing would happen there.
Personally I think the tuner does know his stuff, as any one who knows engines knows this.....
'A hot day will easily knock 20 bhp off your motor, especially in a hot dyno cell with no airflow through the bay.
Det used to be called 'pinking' but its the same thing. One thing I noticed on my car is that the metal fuel lines run extremely close to the cats, close enough to heat the fuel a significant amount in this weather, enough to make it boil probably.
If you fill up with super in a low turnover filling station, it can be bad/stale fuel, old tanks with st in them, ect ,but ill bet the heat is why your engine was not happy. Id be happy at 430 on a hot day if my goal was 450. Slap it back on the dyno on a frosty day,youll see 470.
Bad fuel wasn't something I'd really heard about much before but I did use one of the busiest shell stations in Aberdeen. It's impossible to tell if the fuel is stale or not really which is frustrating.Personally I think the tuner does know his stuff, as any one who knows engines knows this.....
'A hot day will easily knock 20 bhp off your motor, especially in a hot dyno cell with no airflow through the bay.
Det used to be called 'pinking' but its the same thing. One thing I noticed on my car is that the metal fuel lines run extremely close to the cats, close enough to heat the fuel a significant amount in this weather, enough to make it boil probably.
If you fill up with super in a low turnover filling station, it can be bad/stale fuel, old tanks with s
t in them, ect ,but ill bet the heat is why your engine was not happy. Id be happy at 430 on a hot day if my goal was 450. Slap it back on the dyno on a frosty day,youll see 470.Mud_ said:
Could be as innocuous as burst knock (ECU predicting knock likely, so pulling timing to avoid it - I would assume IAT is part of the calc). You are running a LSXR and stainless headers, correct? These could also make things noisier...your knock sensors might need desensitising a bit. You really need some logs to determine what's going on.
ringram said:
As per Stevie... No pre baseline dyno = zero point making any assumptions or conclusions.
A few points. Fast 102/102 on an otherwise stock engine will likely reduce low rpm power and give some extra at the very top.
A tune imo for this close to zero mod engine would perhaps add fuel up top and reduce some down low. (Need proper logging to confirm).
Question: How did the tuner tune the engine? What was their process?
Perhaps it was a spark timing only tune? If so then bad.
Number 1 is to get airflow model correct. I would also suggest that the spark timing on the late model engines is pretty ok anyway and cleaning up airflow model and delivered AFR is where the easy power is found.
The tuner did state that the engine was a little lumpy on idle so he raised that a bit to smooth it out which I would say is down to the new intake. I'll ask for the process as I know the chap so I'm sure he'd chat with me about it.A few points. Fast 102/102 on an otherwise stock engine will likely reduce low rpm power and give some extra at the very top.
A tune imo for this close to zero mod engine would perhaps add fuel up top and reduce some down low. (Need proper logging to confirm).
Question: How did the tuner tune the engine? What was their process?
Perhaps it was a spark timing only tune? If so then bad.
Number 1 is to get airflow model correct. I would also suggest that the spark timing on the late model engines is pretty ok anyway and cleaning up airflow model and delivered AFR is where the easy power is found.
t. If he did, you can load the new and the original maps into efilive and use the comparison feature to show all the modifications made cell by cell.If you have knock, its probably the spark tables if he did only that and left the VE table alone. All these differences in those tables can be seen in a 3D rotatable graph.
If you have copies of both tunes (which you should), I'm sure Rich (and the other efi guys) would have a quick gander for you.
wormus said:
The alternative would be to ask Ringram if he has a tune for your car. Assuming everything else is standard, we are talking about a new intake?
I think OP's approach is generally OK, if the controls are all in place, there is still some left on the table with the stock LS2, although I would have wanted a good CAI to install with the intake. Only major mess up here is not having a base line to start from. However, if correct, 432hp will be a feasible result from the stock 389. Not sure about the Wheel HP at that?I'm still wanting to see that AFR trace if he can find it.
Edited by MyM8V8 on Monday 25th July 19:06
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