One rule for the police.....
Discussion
Reuters said:
A traffic police officer was found guilty of driving at 159 mph after he was ordered to face a re-trial over the speeding charge.
However police constable Mark Milton was only given an absolute discharge after being convicted of dangerous driving at Ludlow magistrates court, Shropshire.
This means Milton will face no punishment. The verdict however counts as a criminal conviction.
Milton, a qualified advanced driver, was recorded in December 2003, by an onboard camera in his upgraded unmarked Vauxhall Vectra police car travelling at 91 mph in a 30 mph zone and hitting 159 mph on the M54 motorway where the top speed is 70 mph.
He was originally acquitted of the offence in May 2005 after a judge accepted his defence that he had taken the car on a test run to familiarise himself with it.
However the case was referred to the High Court after a challenge by the Attorney General amid condemnation from motoring groups and the media.
Justice Heather Hallett at the High Court ruled that the lower court judge had erred and that the case should be referred back for a fresh hearing.
"Driving at those speeds on public roads without any warning in conditions no matter how good, and no matter what the skills of the driver, amounted to dangerous driving," said Hallett.
Milton's lawyer said at that time the case could have wide ramifications for the way police forces train their pursuit drivers.
"You can't sensibly practise high speed driving on roads by driving around in circles on an airfield or a car park," said David Twigg.
However police constable Mark Milton was only given an absolute discharge after being convicted of dangerous driving at Ludlow magistrates court, Shropshire.
This means Milton will face no punishment. The verdict however counts as a criminal conviction.
Milton, a qualified advanced driver, was recorded in December 2003, by an onboard camera in his upgraded unmarked Vauxhall Vectra police car travelling at 91 mph in a 30 mph zone and hitting 159 mph on the M54 motorway where the top speed is 70 mph.
He was originally acquitted of the offence in May 2005 after a judge accepted his defence that he had taken the car on a test run to familiarise himself with it.
However the case was referred to the High Court after a challenge by the Attorney General amid condemnation from motoring groups and the media.
Justice Heather Hallett at the High Court ruled that the lower court judge had erred and that the case should be referred back for a fresh hearing.
"Driving at those speeds on public roads without any warning in conditions no matter how good, and no matter what the skills of the driver, amounted to dangerous driving," said Hallett.
Milton's lawyer said at that time the case could have wide ramifications for the way police forces train their pursuit drivers.
"You can't sensibly practise high speed driving on roads by driving around in circles on an airfield or a car park," said David Twigg.
Seems like there is one rule for the police and another for us. I am sure if I pleaded that I was just testing out the top speed of my Monaro they wouldn't let me off with an absolute discahrge.
Edited by GSI_Daz on Friday 25th August 12:12
Yes, there is one rule for them and one for us. Great.
I take it you are not a Class 1 Advanced Police driver?
Also, I doubt your job requires you to drive safely at those high speeds.
It would have been even more dangerous for the Police Officer to have only tested the vehicle at high speed for the first time in a pursuit situation.
If he had lost control in a pursuit and killed someone, I bet you would be the first one to condem him for not carrying out training beforehand.
If you want to drive at those speeds, join the Police.
I for one, thank these Officers who take dangerous, drunk, uninsured, unlicensed C0cks off our roads, often putting themselves in danger on my behalf.
I take it you are not a Class 1 Advanced Police driver?
Also, I doubt your job requires you to drive safely at those high speeds.
It would have been even more dangerous for the Police Officer to have only tested the vehicle at high speed for the first time in a pursuit situation.
If he had lost control in a pursuit and killed someone, I bet you would be the first one to condem him for not carrying out training beforehand.
If you want to drive at those speeds, join the Police.
I for one, thank these Officers who take dangerous, drunk, uninsured, unlicensed C0cks off our roads, often putting themselves in danger on my behalf.
How on earth did they get a vectra to do 159? It must have been going down a hill with the wind behind him. The new one does 161mph tops but as that was a few years ago they only had a NA 3.2 v6. I can only assume they spent some money on the engine.
The 159mph top speed is not my biggest gripe. I dont think anything justifys 90mph in a 30mph zone, whatever the excuse.
The 159mph top speed is not my biggest gripe. I dont think anything justifys 90mph in a 30mph zone, whatever the excuse.
I think he can defend his high speed in the built up area, as this type of driving probably takes more skill than motorway driving..... but the whole thing is rock and hard place..... Guilty if you do, guilty if you don't.
I still maintain there is a need for pursuit authorised Police drivers to train at high speeds.
What would you suggest as a solution, Grand Turismo on the Playstation? Would you put your life at risk chasing a drunk driver when you hadn't had the training? I certainly wouldn't.
What with the blood thirsty media and the HSE breathing down their necks, the Police are under great pressure. They now do not chase motorcycles because of the risk to the motorcyclist.... Do you want this to happen to drunk drivers in cars too?
I still maintain there is a need for pursuit authorised Police drivers to train at high speeds.
What would you suggest as a solution, Grand Turismo on the Playstation? Would you put your life at risk chasing a drunk driver when you hadn't had the training? I certainly wouldn't.
What with the blood thirsty media and the HSE breathing down their necks, the Police are under great pressure. They now do not chase motorcycles because of the risk to the motorcyclist.... Do you want this to happen to drunk drivers in cars too?
V8 EOL said:
How on earth did they get a vectra to do 159?
Must have been a large cliff on his route
As for 90 in a 30, I agree. It doesn't matter if you are Joe Public, a class 1 driver or Michael Schumacher, you're still going to plough down the poor kid that runs out in the road after his ball at that speed.
Edited by Ali_T on Friday 25th August 16:02
Demolition Man said:
I think he can defend his high speed in the built up area, as this type of driving probably takes more skill than motorway driving.....
I don’t care if it was Michael Schumacher. 90mph in a 30 is simply irresponsible, mindless, reckless and very dangerous whatever the circumstances.
V8 EOL said:
Demolition Man said:
I think he can defend his high speed in the built up area, as this type of driving probably takes more skill than motorway driving.....
I don’t care if it was Michael Schumacher. 90mph in a 30 is simply irresponsible, mindless, reckless and very dangerous whatever the circumstances.
I couldn't agree more!GSI_Daz said:
V8 EOL said:
Demolition Man said:
I think he can defend his high speed in the built up area, as this type of driving probably takes more skill than motorway driving.....
I don’t care if it was Michael Schumacher. 90mph in a 30 is simply irresponsible, mindless, reckless and very dangerous whatever the circumstances.
I couldn't agree more!And 159 on a public road, is also a bit ridiculous...If they intend prosecuting normal drivers for lesser speeds, then he should be made an example of.
To claim he is a class A driver or what ?? Are you joking ?
Only a few years ago, the police prosecuted rally drivers, between stages on the Network Q, or whatever its called these days.
Proper cars, with skilled drivers, and I'm sure going nowhere near 159mph.
Who would you think is safer of the 2 scenarios ?
There are plenty of old industrial estates and the like that could be closed for urban training just as any disused airfield could be used for high speed motorway simulation with use of other cars for traffic etc.
Whilst I respect the task the police have is not an easy one, there is just no excuse for irresponisible driving like that. We have all (if we are truely honest) done things on a public highway that we shouldn't have but if any of us were caught doing something similar to 159 then we would be expecting definite loss of licence and potentially a spell at her majestys liesure.
The proceedures for training need to be looked at and reformed. As was mentioned earlier in this thread, being class 1 certified isn't going to make the car stop any quicker for the poor child that's chasing a ball into the street ahead of a speeding officer.
Any sort of justification is utter b******t.
Whilst I respect the task the police have is not an easy one, there is just no excuse for irresponisible driving like that. We have all (if we are truely honest) done things on a public highway that we shouldn't have but if any of us were caught doing something similar to 159 then we would be expecting definite loss of licence and potentially a spell at her majestys liesure.
The proceedures for training need to be looked at and reformed. As was mentioned earlier in this thread, being class 1 certified isn't going to make the car stop any quicker for the poor child that's chasing a ball into the street ahead of a speeding officer.
Any sort of justification is utter b******t.
Edited by Woody vt on Friday 25th August 17:12
Edited by Woody vt on Friday 25th August 17:31
I support the Police in pursuing criminals. Think the motorist is a bit of a cash cow and having been given 3 points and a fixed penalty for doing 72 in a 60 it seems a bit rich that one of the boys in blue can double my speed without any come back.
I did 120 legally around Brands Hatch and learned a hell of a lot about how my car handles, brakes etc and with other fast moving cars on the track I had 'competition'.
I think if someone who upholds the law breaks the law they should be punished like the rest of us. There are plenty of places to legally put a car through its places when not chasing criminals.
I did 120 legally around Brands Hatch and learned a hell of a lot about how my car handles, brakes etc and with other fast moving cars on the track I had 'competition'.
I think if someone who upholds the law breaks the law they should be punished like the rest of us. There are plenty of places to legally put a car through its places when not chasing criminals.
[/long rant on]
Places they could train: any racetrack, West Australian police hire Barbagallo Raceway all the time and train there; Millbrook proving ground, which I believe has a simulated section of "normal road" etc etc. Thats all very well to say but budgetry and time constraints dont always allow it. Considering some of clowns who do ridiculous speeds in shitbox Escorts in the early evening through town, a trained Police officer in an appropriately specced car at the sparrows fart of the morning is the LEAST of our worries on the road.
When they made the switch from horse and cart, cars were considered death machines and they only did 5mph! There will laways be a percentage of the population who's response and opinions to this sort of thing comes from media sensationalism (that idiot reporter in the Monaro saying he was frightened and couldnt focus - as if the speed HE is comfortable travelling at is in ANY way relevant) and the "conditioning" of road safety groups. Hear something often enough and you will start to believe it. And why oh why do we trot out the "little johnny chasing his ball into the street" example everytime this comes up?
Speed doesnt kill! D'ya hear me? It doesnt! The powers that be have manged to convince the population that certain death lies over 70mph, as though its some mysterious bogey-land that if you cross into, youll never come back from.
Crashes kill and the results of those CAN be made worse by WHAT you hit and HOW hard - yes, I understand your speed impacts the latter. But the answer is - dont crash. And you avoid crashing by having skill, experience and the decisions you make about how fast to go and when and where. You may not realise it but you all make that decision everyday already! Just that some of us only tend do it at lower speeds. Do you slow down to take a corner on the slick concrete of an underground carpark when your tyres are wet, to avoid hitting a parked car at 15mph? Congratualtions, you have HALF the skills needed to drive fast without crashing - its called using your judgement.
Son-of-Kate Adie there in the Monaro was probably scared cause he wasnt used it. Its all about what experience you have and how youre conditioned.
As a biker, we do our brekky runs early on a Sunday morning, cause there less traffic on the roads. Thats a judgement that reduces the element of risk. I dont get my knee down on roundabouts cause I cant see deisel spills on them. Thats another one. I stay in the lane with best drainage when its pouring with rain to reduce the chance of aqua planing when I AM doing the speed limit. Golly!! Who'd have thought - you need to use your brain EVEN BELOW the governments magic numbers! Weeeee....look at me....making desicions for myself....CRAZY!
Who thinks this guy is the ONLY copper to go out for blast in the pursuit car early one morning? Theyre humans too. Many of the traffic bunch are petrol-heads themselves. He was just unfortunate to get caught. Unfortunately for him, the court will never take his car or ability into consideration because the laws have to be absolute. Otherwise you would every Kev in a Nova SRi claiming that because he watches top gear and has a boot spoiler, its more permissable for him to do 50mph through the town centre.
I think thats all. Sorry about the long rant but this IS my favourite subject/pet peeve etc. I will sit and type/argue about this for as long anyone wants to....
PB
Places they could train: any racetrack, West Australian police hire Barbagallo Raceway all the time and train there; Millbrook proving ground, which I believe has a simulated section of "normal road" etc etc. Thats all very well to say but budgetry and time constraints dont always allow it. Considering some of clowns who do ridiculous speeds in shitbox Escorts in the early evening through town, a trained Police officer in an appropriately specced car at the sparrows fart of the morning is the LEAST of our worries on the road.
When they made the switch from horse and cart, cars were considered death machines and they only did 5mph! There will laways be a percentage of the population who's response and opinions to this sort of thing comes from media sensationalism (that idiot reporter in the Monaro saying he was frightened and couldnt focus - as if the speed HE is comfortable travelling at is in ANY way relevant) and the "conditioning" of road safety groups. Hear something often enough and you will start to believe it. And why oh why do we trot out the "little johnny chasing his ball into the street" example everytime this comes up?
Speed doesnt kill! D'ya hear me? It doesnt! The powers that be have manged to convince the population that certain death lies over 70mph, as though its some mysterious bogey-land that if you cross into, youll never come back from.
Crashes kill and the results of those CAN be made worse by WHAT you hit and HOW hard - yes, I understand your speed impacts the latter. But the answer is - dont crash. And you avoid crashing by having skill, experience and the decisions you make about how fast to go and when and where. You may not realise it but you all make that decision everyday already! Just that some of us only tend do it at lower speeds. Do you slow down to take a corner on the slick concrete of an underground carpark when your tyres are wet, to avoid hitting a parked car at 15mph? Congratualtions, you have HALF the skills needed to drive fast without crashing - its called using your judgement.
Son-of-Kate Adie there in the Monaro was probably scared cause he wasnt used it. Its all about what experience you have and how youre conditioned.
As a biker, we do our brekky runs early on a Sunday morning, cause there less traffic on the roads. Thats a judgement that reduces the element of risk. I dont get my knee down on roundabouts cause I cant see deisel spills on them. Thats another one. I stay in the lane with best drainage when its pouring with rain to reduce the chance of aqua planing when I AM doing the speed limit. Golly!! Who'd have thought - you need to use your brain EVEN BELOW the governments magic numbers! Weeeee....look at me....making desicions for myself....CRAZY!
Who thinks this guy is the ONLY copper to go out for blast in the pursuit car early one morning? Theyre humans too. Many of the traffic bunch are petrol-heads themselves. He was just unfortunate to get caught. Unfortunately for him, the court will never take his car or ability into consideration because the laws have to be absolute. Otherwise you would every Kev in a Nova SRi claiming that because he watches top gear and has a boot spoiler, its more permissable for him to do 50mph through the town centre.
I think thats all. Sorry about the long rant but this IS my favourite subject/pet peeve etc. I will sit and type/argue about this for as long anyone wants to....
PB
Still going....
90mph in a 30 is simply irresponsible, mindless, reckless and very dangerous whatever the circumstances.
What makes you say that V8? Youve labelled this guy alot of things without actually knowing the circumstances. Your whole basis seems to be that because someone plonked a 30 limit sign there, you are now qualified to label his actions all of the above.
The reason I think people do that is because they have a predisposed idea of what a 30 limit zone looks like. Its in front of a school, opposite an old people's home, in the middle of a town, has a zebra crossing on it, has no vision either side of the raod for more than 2mtrs, a poor road surface, a blind bend, is lined with trees, is littered with pedestrians at 5am on any day and has at least 4 hidden access ways. Of that you are obviously certain. That being the case - yes, 90mph was irresponsible, mindless, reckless etc etc
I can only assume you know that piece of road intimately...
If you disagree with his actions, would it have been ok if he had lights and sirens on and was on his way to attend a burglary at your parents house? If the answer is yes then youre willing to accept that other factors can affect the relative safety of his actions. If lights and sirens can affect it, why cant location, time of day, skill, experience and car capability affect it too?
It seems the authorities can control the thoughts and opinions of the masses by simply plonking a sign in the street. Once thats done, sit back and watch them cast stones at each other, regardless of all other factors.
PB
V8 EOL said:
90mph in a 30 is simply irresponsible, mindless, reckless and very dangerous whatever the circumstances.
What makes you say that V8? Youve labelled this guy alot of things without actually knowing the circumstances. Your whole basis seems to be that because someone plonked a 30 limit sign there, you are now qualified to label his actions all of the above.
The reason I think people do that is because they have a predisposed idea of what a 30 limit zone looks like. Its in front of a school, opposite an old people's home, in the middle of a town, has a zebra crossing on it, has no vision either side of the raod for more than 2mtrs, a poor road surface, a blind bend, is lined with trees, is littered with pedestrians at 5am on any day and has at least 4 hidden access ways. Of that you are obviously certain. That being the case - yes, 90mph was irresponsible, mindless, reckless etc etc
I can only assume you know that piece of road intimately...
If you disagree with his actions, would it have been ok if he had lights and sirens on and was on his way to attend a burglary at your parents house? If the answer is yes then youre willing to accept that other factors can affect the relative safety of his actions. If lights and sirens can affect it, why cant location, time of day, skill, experience and car capability affect it too?
It seems the authorities can control the thoughts and opinions of the masses by simply plonking a sign in the street. Once thats done, sit back and watch them cast stones at each other, regardless of all other factors.
PB
308mate said:
demolition man said:
They now do not chase motorcycles because of the risk to the motorcyclist....
I can tell you with some authority that it appears noone has told the Dorset/Hampshire police that!
PB
Perhaps I should clarify my statement............ Being stopped for speeding is not being pursued after failing to stop when required to do so by a Police Officer
....... or are you telling us you're one of these people we see on 'Road Wars' and 'Police, Camera, Action' ??
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