Tam very 'crashy' after Nitrons fitted!
Discussion
slimtater said:
As ShiDevil says, a lot are too low. Here is mine which runs on Ohlin 3-way and also previously set up by CoG:
Another issue aside from the crashy ride is that you can get fouling on the drive-shaft outer gaiter if too low.
My second fav colour on a T350 :P Looks great mate Another issue aside from the crashy ride is that you can get fouling on the drive-shaft outer gaiter if too low.
Can't go wrong with CofG, it's all they do, so might as well take advantage.ChrisPap said:
control is terrible.
Why is the upper left force/velocity graph looking perfect though? what's different in that test compared to the others that look like they're all suffering cavitation issues .. but cavitation normally only affects high speed piston movements .. these are poor all the way down to very slow shaft speeds .. not really making much sense to me though I admit my knowledge of dampers is only scratching the surface, I have worked with Nitron back in the day of cerbera/tuscan damper development to get to my own sets of valving.What I can add is that I've driven a few later nitron equipped cars and not been too impressed with the ride quality .. but why that is I don't know as I haven't sold any nitrons for about 5 years so not had the chance to get to work with them again at build level.
spitfire4v8 said:
Why is the upper left force/velocity graph looking perfect though? what's different in that test compared to the others that look like they're all suffering cavitation issues .. but cavitation normally only affects high speed piston movements .. these are poor all the way down to very slow shaft speeds .. not really making much sense to me though I admit my knowledge of dampers is only scratching the surface, I have worked with Nitron back in the day of cerbera/tuscan damper development to get to my own sets of valving.
What I can add is that I've driven a few later nitron equipped cars and not been too impressed with the ride quality .. but why that is I don't know as I haven't sold any nitrons for about 5 years so not had the chance to get to work with them again at build level.
You can try the Nitrons on mine tomorrow What I can add is that I've driven a few later nitron equipped cars and not been too impressed with the ride quality .. but why that is I don't know as I haven't sold any nitrons for about 5 years so not had the chance to get to work with them again at build level.
ShiDevil said:
My second fav colour on a T350 :P Looks great mate Can't go wrong with CofG, it's all they do, so might as well take advantage.
Where is CofG? Bet they're miles away from me... Can't go wrong with CofG, it's all they do, so might as well take advantage.I have read that it costs around £400 to have the car set up perfectly, but I think that's money well spent if it transforms handling and ride quality.
At this point in time though, I honestly wish I had replaced the suspension with standard Bilsteins - I just hope the money spent on the Nitrons proves to be a good investment in the long run - first time I have ever spent money on the Tam and hated the results.
spitfire4v8 said:
Why is the upper left force/velocity graph looking perfect though? what's different in that test compared to the others that look like they're all suffering cavitation issues .. but cavitation normally only affects high speed piston movements .. these are poor all the way down to very slow shaft speeds .. not really making much sense to me though I admit my knowledge of dampers is only scratching the surface, I have worked with Nitron back in the day of cerbera/tuscan damper development to get to my own sets of valving.
What I can add is that I've driven a few later nitron equipped cars and not been too impressed with the ride quality .. but why that is I don't know as I haven't sold any nitrons for about 5 years so not had the chance to get to work with them again at build level.
It's Jules, right? I seem to remember promising to send you these graphs last year and forgot! Sorry! The graph in the top left is peak force/velocity only, so just snapshots strung together with a line. There are in effect only 5 sample points for each line in that graph.What I can add is that I've driven a few later nitron equipped cars and not been too impressed with the ride quality .. but why that is I don't know as I haven't sold any nitrons for about 5 years so not had the chance to get to work with them again at build level.
The rest of the graphs are full sample graphs showing damper response taking many hundreds of measurements during the full cycle of movement. Hence they show the true characteristic of the damper.
chris watton said:
Where is CofG? Bet they're miles away from me...
I have read that it costs around £400 to have the car set up perfectly, but I think that's money well spent if it transforms handling and ride quality.
At this point in time though, I honestly wish I had replaced the suspension with standard Bilsteins - I just hope the money spent on the Nitrons proves to be a good investment in the long run - first time I have ever spent money on the Tam and hated the results.
Start with the basics Chris. Soften the shocks off fully to work out what clicks you're on and try the settings Jes and I have said work well. Of course your geo may need tweaking too, but try anyway. Don't be too worried, Nitrons are a good product.I have read that it costs around £400 to have the car set up perfectly, but I think that's money well spent if it transforms handling and ride quality.
At this point in time though, I honestly wish I had replaced the suspension with standard Bilsteins - I just hope the money spent on the Nitrons proves to be a good investment in the long run - first time I have ever spent money on the Tam and hated the results.
ChrisPap said:
It's Jules, right? I seem to remember promising to send you these graphs last year and forgot! Sorry! The graph in the top left is peak force/velocity only, so just snapshots strung together with a line. There are in effect only 5 sample points for each line in that graph.
The rest of the graphs are full sample graphs showing damper response taking many hundreds of measurements during the full cycle of movement. Hence they show the true characteristic of the damper.
Thanks for the explanation Chris .. don't worry about not sending the graphs I did wonder if they were on a need to see basis and weren't for public viewing anyway The rest of the graphs are full sample graphs showing damper response taking many hundreds of measurements during the full cycle of movement. Hence they show the true characteristic of the damper.
Targarama said:
Don't be too worried, Nitrons are a good product.
The old adage, "nothing stays the same" springs to mind.I have no axe to grind but if Chris's is anything like mine then I'm not surprised that he is not satisfied.
If you wind all down my dampers in increments and test, even fully soft is way too harsh.
Something isn't right at low speed.
I used then on a couple of track days and a sprint recently with the damping set about half way and I had no complaints. The car was stable and I had excellent control.
I think that maybe the damping is set up more for track then compliant for the road.
Targarama said:
chris watton said:
Where is CofG? Bet they're miles away from me...
I have read that it costs around £400 to have the car set up perfectly, but I think that's money well spent if it transforms handling and ride quality.
At this point in time though, I honestly wish I had replaced the suspension with standard Bilsteins - I just hope the money spent on the Nitrons proves to be a good investment in the long run - first time I have ever spent money on the Tam and hated the results.
Start with the basics Chris. Soften the shocks off fully to work out what clicks you're on and try the settings Jes and I have said work well. Of course your geo may need tweaking too, but try anyway. Don't be too worried, Nitrons are a good product.I have read that it costs around £400 to have the car set up perfectly, but I think that's money well spent if it transforms handling and ride quality.
At this point in time though, I honestly wish I had replaced the suspension with standard Bilsteins - I just hope the money spent on the Nitrons proves to be a good investment in the long run - first time I have ever spent money on the Tam and hated the results.
If you've got your car at a sensible height, and the wheels are roughly in the right direction and you still can't claw the ride quality back to a sensible level (whilst not making it a blancmange in terms of handling) then your springs and/or dampers need some work.
Some people are claiming their nitrons are great, some say they're awful. It would be good to see if there's a build cut-off date at which this happens and if there were any changes made to the damper specs around that time. Is it the later 46mm versions that are affected or all ntr spec dampers?
You need to be asking nitron some questions .. Ive always found them very accommodating in the past but things change and they're a much bigger company now than when it was just Guy and Ben in the old days ..
edited to add .. bearing in mind what phazed has said above it might just be that nitron used a race orientated tuner to help develop their latest valvings and so they've all come out way too stiff.
The low speed resistance is controlled from the bleed valve though so if the low speed piston movement is able to go very soft but you still have issues with higher speed piston movment resistances then it's the valving that needs looking into. I seem to recal there's an annular preload ring that delays the opening of the main valving .. I think I'd be suggesting that as a first step into getting the main valve block shims opening earlier/at low piston speeds. maybe the cavitation issues are that the valve shims just aren't opening soon enough in piston speed terms.
I'm looking at it from a very basic knowledge of damper design so don't shoot me if that's a load of b*llocks though .. but from what I've felt I would be having a much more digressive valve build (which to be fair is what i always used to have built for me back in the day anyway)
Edited by spitfire4v8 on Tuesday 17th June 08:30
phazed said:
I think that maybe the damping is set up more for track then compliant for the road.
This,British roads are crap and this doesn't help ride, on track/ decent roads Nitrons are very good,
They are only as good as the guy who sets them up,
Don't go to low on ride height, this can really upset the ride,
Give them a few hundred miles before setting them up,
Just keep trying settings/ height till it feels right for you, they are very easy to play with,
When you are happy with ride then take it to a specialist for final set up.
WolfyJones said:
This,
British roads are crap and this doesn't help ride, on track/ decent roads Nitrons are very good,
They are only as good as the guy who sets them up,
Don't go to low on ride height, this can really upset the ride,
Give them a few hundred miles before setting them up,
Just keep trying settings/ height till it feels right for you, they are very easy to play with,
When you are happy with ride then take it to a specialist for final set up.
Just to add that my car had a full geo earlier this year by Matt Smith Sports Cars.British roads are crap and this doesn't help ride, on track/ decent roads Nitrons are very good,
They are only as good as the guy who sets them up,
Don't go to low on ride height, this can really upset the ride,
Give them a few hundred miles before setting them up,
Just keep trying settings/ height till it feels right for you, they are very easy to play with,
When you are happy with ride then take it to a specialist for final set up.
spitfire4v8 said:
...latest valvings ...]
Sorry to jump in here (while your brain is full of deep damping thoughts), can I ask what you know regarding Frequency Sensitive Damping please. Lately I've been trying to get my head around such things as Koni FSD and Intrax ARC.The best I've got so far is such units have valving similar to /the same as three and four way adjustable units (high and low speed control), but with less end user adjustability. Does that seem about right?
phazed said:
The old adage, "nothing stays the same" springs to mind.
I have no axe to grind but if Chris's is anything like mine then I'm not surprised that he is not satisfied.
If you wind all down my dampers in increments and test, even fully soft is way too harsh.
Something isn't right at low speed.
I used then on a couple of track days and a sprint recently with the damping set about half way and I had no complaints. The car was stable and I had excellent control.
I think that maybe the damping is set up more for track then compliant for the road.
Hmm, good point. Maybe Nitron made changes.I have no axe to grind but if Chris's is anything like mine then I'm not surprised that he is not satisfied.
If you wind all down my dampers in increments and test, even fully soft is way too harsh.
Something isn't right at low speed.
I used then on a couple of track days and a sprint recently with the damping set about half way and I had no complaints. The car was stable and I had excellent control.
I think that maybe the damping is set up more for track then compliant for the road.
RichardD said:
spitfire4v8 said:
...latest valvings ...]
Sorry to jump in here (while your brain is full of deep damping thoughts), can I ask what you know regarding Frequency Sensitive Damping please. Lately I've been trying to get my head around such things as Koni FSD and Intrax ARC.The best I've got so far is such units have valving similar to /the same as three and four way adjustable units (high and low speed control), but with less end user adjustability. Does that seem about right?
it's like back in the day of 70s hifi with parametric tone controls and graphic equalisers lol!
spitfire4v8 said:
stuff
Thanks for those thoughts 
.Having read :-
http://en.intraxracing.nl/techniek/arc%C2%AE-(anti...
it just made me wonder what is it !?
On topic, hopefully those on here who aren't content with their damping will get it sorted out straightforwardly
.When I made the enquiries, Nitron told me they hadn't changed their design or technology for years, and this was a month before the 46mm versions came out. I knew they were coming and asked, I was told they were an incrimentally better design but not a game changer, which is why I carried on with my order, because they were already, supposedly, the best!
I found that the Nitron supplied springs were (if memory serves) 33% stiffer than standard. I changed my spring rates down to what I think is standard, but all the finness and supleness that so impressed me on the original dampers has gone.
ASD dampers and their other modern equavalents are something else. I think ASD is the koni version, but most do it now. It involves putting a valve in the piston that reacts to inertia. Its workings are pretty complex but it gives you firm low speed damping for good body control on the smooth stuff and minimum roll and pitch (braking/acceleration) movement, but opens up to rough inputs and impacts in a superior way to standard valved damping. It was pioneered in F1 about 7-8 years ago.
I found that the Nitron supplied springs were (if memory serves) 33% stiffer than standard. I changed my spring rates down to what I think is standard, but all the finness and supleness that so impressed me on the original dampers has gone.
ASD dampers and their other modern equavalents are something else. I think ASD is the koni version, but most do it now. It involves putting a valve in the piston that reacts to inertia. Its workings are pretty complex but it gives you firm low speed damping for good body control on the smooth stuff and minimum roll and pitch (braking/acceleration) movement, but opens up to rough inputs and impacts in a superior way to standard valved damping. It was pioneered in F1 about 7-8 years ago.
ChrisPap said:
stuff
A quick Google gives ASD as a Monroe thing. ASD being 'Acceleration sensitive damping. FSD is Koni, 'Frequency sensitive damping'. To me it all sounds like marketing blurb for the same thing, but allows them to seem different to avoid the suits suing each other out of existance.
I'm sure I read a similar thing by Ohlins yesterday (another three letters) on the topic of the ring Megane, but can't find it!
Thanks for that info. With F1 such damping would be for kerb hopping I'd assume.
900T-R has Intrax ARC on his Chim. I should jump on the local ferry and then get a bus to Rotterdam
Of course just dampers can't limit dive, squat or roll, but slow it down. Roll is something that TVR put plenty effort in in developing the t-car chassis
.RichardD said:
I'm sure I read a similar thing by Ohlins yesterday (another three letters) on the topic of the ring Megane, but can't find it!
http://www.ohlinscoilovers.co.uk/dfv-technologySupposed to give you the best of both worlds, relative comfort over uneven surfaces and still nice and stiff in the corners.
ShiDevil said:
slimtater said:
As ShiDevil says, a lot are too low. Here is mine which runs on Ohlin 3-way and also previously set up by CoG:
Another issue aside from the crashy ride is that you can get fouling on the drive-shaft outer gaiter if too low.
My second fav colour on a T350 :P Looks great mate Another issue aside from the crashy ride is that you can get fouling on the drive-shaft outer gaiter if too low.
Can't go wrong with CofG, it's all they do, so might as well take advantage.
CoG (actually just CG)are here Chris:
http://www.centregravity.co.uk/
MPoxon said:
This is why I went for new OEM spec Bilstiens on mine.
Very wise........ I recently left my New bilstein equipped griff with Ian at sportmotive for a few jobs, and asked him to use the car for a few days to make sure everything was ok.....His first comment when I went to pick it up, was how well it handled, and how nice the ride quality was..... I think it surprised him because I suspect, by the time most OEM equipped cars come to him, the shocks are probably past their best...
so he doesn't get the chance to try a new set...Gassing Station | Tamora, T350 & Sagaris | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff