Tam very 'crashy' after Nitrons fitted!

[chris watton]

slimtater said:

Cheers - likewise, orange is my second favourite!

CoG (actually just CG)are here Chris:

http://www.centregravity.co.uk/

Thanks for the link - not as far as I thought it'd be!

Will book my Tam in and have a drive up there in a couple of months.

[chris watton]

OK, I emailed Centre Gravity, and got a quote.

It looks quite thorough:

• Test drive and report
• Suspension test and report
• Inspect all suspension systems and components including dampers, springs, bushes and balljoints
• Pre load car with weight
• Tyre data check and adjust
• Ride height check and adjust (optimise for A/B road use)
• Corner weight check and adjust (for slalom use)
• Geometry check and adjust (optimise for A/B road use)
• Re check corner weights
• Set up adjustable anti roll bars (if applicable)
• Set up damper (bump/rebound)
• Customer test drive check and handover
• Before and after tyre, ride height and corner weight report
• Before and after geometry check and report

But at £567, I should think it is. I think I'll have to invest in having that done, as the car deserves to be set up correctly.

[ShiDevil]

It's all they do and you will be there from 9-5.

It's not a 'Geo' and they repeatedly drive your car too to further test settings

[WolfyJones]

chris watton said:

OK, I emailed Centre Gravity, and got a quote.

It looks quite thorough:

• Test drive and report
• Suspension test and report
• Inspect all suspension systems and components including dampers, springs, bushes and balljoints
• Pre load car with weight
• Tyre data check and adjust
• Ride height check and adjust (optimise for A/B road use)
• Corner weight check and adjust (for slalom use)
• Geometry check and adjust (optimise for A/B road use)
• Re check corner weights
• Set up adjustable anti roll bars (if applicable)
• Set up damper (bump/rebound)
• Customer test drive check and handover
• Before and after tyre, ride height and corner weight report
• Before and after geometry check and report

But at £567, I should think it is. I think I'll have to invest in having that done, as the car deserves to be set up correctly.

You must be mad, it's easy to sort out yourself,

Like what has been said on this thread, soften the settings then try, if no good up the ride height 10/20mm then try, if still bad then take it to a specialist and bend over.

[phazed]

Matt Smith sets up cars, full geo etc., about £150 iirc.

[chris watton]

phazed said:

Matt Smith sets up cars, full geo etc., about £150 iirc.

That's on the other side of the country for me! Neil Garner's not too far away...

[phazed]

chris watton said:

That's on the other side of the country for me! Neil Garner's not too far away...

I drove 150 miles there for a set up.

Matts a good guy, not going to rip you off and will point out little things that aren't correct and tweak them for nowt!

He tracks a chim and has race car setting up experience.

He also does the work himself rather then trusting others, worth it imho.

[ShiDevil]

phazed said:

Matt Smith sets up cars, full geo etc., about £150 iirc.

It's not really an apples and apples comparison mate. Having seen what happens with a 'geo' it's a massive difference. For a start most places don't even drive your car to understand the issues/characteristics before they work on it. Many of us use Matt and will continue to do so. He sets cars up well, is trustworthy, and Is well respected, which he earns day in day out, although thats not really the point.

In terms of CG we took the view that they are specialists for suspension and their approach is very different because it's all they do. On that basis it was worth investing in their time. Their reputation is very good, across a range of sports cars, especially Porsche, Noble and TVR. No one I have spoken with has viewed what they do as a waste of money and all have had positive experiences as they do with Matt for the TVR stuff It's down to personal choice at the end of the day.

Chris spoke to me about an open day at his place so he could discuss their approach, if anyone was interested.

Edited by ShiDevil on Tuesday 17th June 18:19

[SergSC]

Targarama said:

chris watton said:

Where is CofG? Bet they're miles away from me..

I have read that it costs around £400 to have the car set up perfectly, but I think that's money well spent if it transforms handling and ride quality.

At this point in time though, I honestly wish I had replaced the suspension with standard Bilsteins - I just hope the money spnt on the Nitrons proves to be a good investment in the long run - first time I have ever spent money on the Tam and hated the results.

Start with the basics Chris. Soften the shocks off fully to work out what clicks you're on and try the settings Jes and I have said work well. Of course your geo may need tweaking too, but try anyway. Don't be too worried, Nitrons are a good product

Mine is aligned properly and at the correct ride height front back. It handles great on good roads. Only thing that helped crashyness over sharp bumps and rough surfaces was 225/40 vreds, much better ride quality than with the toyos and more effect than changing from click #10 through to #5, not ideal because it came a cost of steering directness, and I bought the shocks to renew old and improve that aspect. I was hoping to get it a tad closer to my elise sc feel.
I think the fact that I have to resort to soft tyres to soften impacts, tells me they cared not a jot to public road performance and these are really track only. But thats not what they tell prospective clients over the phone.

I cant help but think this current tyre/shock combo is probably a silly combination that doesnt do anything particularly well... softy road tyres + race track shocks? A soft tyre making up for a big shock deficit? Doesnt make sense, does it?

looking at intrax hd or hda as a possible alternative, in a few months once I've recovered from having wasted so much money on this... they appeal to me because their marketing blurb seems to specifically care about road use whereas on the nitron site you have to read between the lines about what "fast road riding" may or may not mean ( + the bs you get on the phone if you ask about suitability).

Btw if anyone is thinking a visit to cog is going to improve comfort I think they are dreaming... you can turn the adjusters yourself. Cog will make it drive as good as it can but they arent going to open up your shocks and fix the valving... a minor pothole is still going to clatter your teeth regardless. They are simply unsuitable for dealing with rough surfaces with any comfort, no amount of geo thinkering is going to fix that. IME you can add softness with soft tyres, thats about it.

[anonymous-user]

Turning adjusters will not change spring rates....

[chris watton]

When you write 'Vreds', are you referring to these?;

http://www.clickontyres.co.uk/everyday-tyres/produ...

[anonymous-user]

chris watton said:

When you write 'Vreds', are you referring to these?;

http://www.clickontyres.co.uk/everyday-tyres/produ...

Chris, it's almost certainly not down to tyres per se. I believe you have the wrong springs on the car now and although I say ts not tyres, pressures should be 24 front and rear hot.

Thick end if 600 quid for less than 8 hours work and no parts - save it. Snake oil comes cheaper than that.

Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 17th June 20:24

[s6boy]

Many different opinions and some useful advice I'm sure, however how about taking them back to the place that sold them to you if you don't want to soften them off yourself and get them to do it?

[m4tti]

s6boy said:

Many different opinions and some useful advice I'm sure, however how about taking them back to the place that sold them to you if you don't want to soften them off yourself and get them to do it?

That'll be race tech direct. I guess you could wrap the car up with them attached and courier it

[spitfire4v8]

Quinny said:

MPoxon said:

This is why I went for new OEM spec Bilstiens on mine.

Very wise........ I recently left my New bilstein equipped griff with Ian at sportmotive for a few jobs, and asked him to use the car for a few days to make sure everything was ok.....

His first comment when I went to pick it up, was how well it handled, and how nice the ride quality was..... I think it surprised him because I suspect, by the time most OEM equipped cars come to him, the shocks are probably past their best... so he doesn't get the chance to try a new set...

One way that they claw a good ride is to have a massive rubber bushed top eye on those dampers .. rubber is great for suspension in these cases .. self-damping and capable of absorbing the sudden shocks and allow some give in the suspension before the damper has to react .. in effect delaying the peak piston speeds until after the initial compression has passed.
I have successfully used large top bushed damper eyes in the past to soften otherwise too aggressive damper setups where nothing else has really helped.

[HarryW]

Had Nitrons on the old V8S, probably in their early days reading this thread, might have even got them via Joolz.
The Cerb sits on Intrax with double springs, main and tender, specced by Paul at Austec. Must say I'm certainly no driving god and only do road driving but I've no complaints with either. If anything both cars handled uneven roads better than my old 5 series touring and even the new E class. I must say the Intrax on the Cerb compared to standard are sublime.

[K4TRV]

chris watton said:

phazed said:

Matt Smith sets up cars, full geo etc., about £150 iirc.

That's on the other side of the country for me! Neil Garner's not too far away...

As has been said, get to Neil Garner........ex-F1 Mechanic, races his Chimaera and provides full-race support for a Mosler GT 3 - he will drive and set the car up or he'll soon be onto Nitron's who are not too far away also!! His guys are fully TV capable - a very professional team.

I would also suggest you call and get an appointment.........they are a busy Team?? Here: http://www.neilgarner.co.uk

Out of interest, your Nitrons came with a test sheet? What "clicks" did they reflect? I recently had a new set and came as 12-clicks from soft - you couldn't drive it with that set-up!! I softened to 4 rear & 6 front for roads (I use 10 rear & 12 front for Sprints & 10 front 8 rear on Hillclimbs)

Why they specified 12 from soft as delivered I have no idea, but I reckon that's your problem???

HTHs

Trev

[chris watton]

TVRMs said:

Chris, it's almost certainly not down to tyres per se. I believe you have the wrong springs on the car now and although I say ts not tyres, pressures should be 24 front and rear hot.

Thick end if 600 quid for less than 8 hours work and no parts - save it. Snake oil comes cheaper than that.

On reflection, that is a lot of money, and perhaps it would be wasted on me (and I'm not half as rich as some..), as I usually only drive on the roads and not track. At least, not until I have had the engine upgraded.

I chose this particular Nitron set because when reading the blurb, it stated that this is the popular for road and occasional track (surely the same could be said about the original factory set up)? As I know they do even stiffer versions, mainly for track (with different coloured springs)

Regarding the tyres, I think it may help slightly, but my main concern is the current distance between wheel rim and road - I want that increased slightly.

[chris watton]

K4TRV said:

As has been said, get to Neil Garner........ex-F1 Mechanic, races his Chimaera and provides full-race support for a Mosler GT 3 - he will drive and set the car up or he'll soon be onto Nitron's who are not too far away also!! His guys are fully TV capable - a very professional team.

I would also suggest you call and get an appointment.........they are a busy Team?? Here: http://www.neilgarner.co.uk

Out of interest, your Nitrons came with a test sheet? What "clicks" did they reflect? I recently had a new set and came as 12-clicks from soft - you couldn't drive it with that set-up!! I softened to 4 rear & 6 front for roads (I use 10 rear & 12 front for Sprints & 10 front 8 rear on Hillclimbs)

Why they specified 12 from soft as delivered I have no idea, but I reckon that's your problem???

HTHs

Trev

Yes, I have the test sheet in front of me. They were built by an S. Edmonds, springs rates are 400 at front, 325 rear, with both front and rear set at 10 - but the guy who put them on at Central told me that he had adjusted them for a not too hard, not too soft ride, so I assumed they were changed. I will check tomorrow.

[ShiDevil]

TVRMs said:

Chris, it's almost certainly not down to tyres per se. I believe you have the wrong springs on the car now and although I say ts not tyres, pressures should be 24 front and rear hot.

Thick end if 600 quid for less than 8 hours work and no parts - save it. Snake oil comes cheaper than that.

Edited by TVRMs on Tuesday 17th June 20:24

I agree it's not just tyre pressures, however 24 is a catch all pressure people regurgitate and which I followed, when I bought the car. However, I was told TVR sent out an advisory for 26 following testing. Track V Road and CG also advised 26. When CG set my car up the wear and tyre temperatures at 24 highlighted the pressure was too low. I have different pressures now as a result, which work much better. In terms of handling etc, it is very much each to their own in terms of who you use. Handling was the most important investment for me, in terms and safety and performance and therefore taking it to a specialist made sense. My point is that some specialist's, do very little. Some don't even drive the car, which seems bizarre. Snake Oil? Have a chat with CG, get a view of what they do, if you think its overkill then fine, but at least you have an informed opinion.