LS Engine swap
Discussion
Of course this subject has been done to death over the years, and the bottom line is there is no right and wrong here just opinions, each individual owner having and being entitled to his own opinion.
For what its worth and purely in my opinion the answer has always been very straightforward to me...
Retain TVR's Speed Six engine if:
While on the face of it this is a real shame as all the TVR models from the Griffith/Chimaera on were "in their own way" so nearly great, if you look at it another way this flawed diamond status is also the very appeal of a TVR, in many ways it gives permission to enhance & improve your TVR in ways that would be sacrilege in the traditional exotic car brand world.
TVR's are a car that very closely competes with these traditional exotics at an affordable price point you can't ignore which gives access to a population ordinary priced out of a high end sports car purchase, and long may that remain. A TVR then teases you with it's "so nearly great" recipe to the extent that you feel almost compelled to become your own development engineer.
The unspoken truth is amateur owner development of a TVR on a realistic budget is fraught with unforeseen challenges and can get very expensive very quickly, but on the flip side there are also some easy wins available without breaking the bank. Of course the best way to drive short cuts through this owner development process is to buy into the multi million pound development budget of a large scale car manufacturer, I've got great deal of respect for the TVR specialists who've developed the problematic Speed Six engine to the point it delivers acceptable reliability, but don't tell me they can compete with the might of the Chevrolet engine development team.
TVR knew all this themselves which is why they traditionally selected drive train components from the big guys in their industry, and why today the LS engine for those who just want to drive and enjoy their TVR is such a compelling option.
To me the market value and dubious thoroughbred status of these cars allows for sensible developments and such engine transplants, if TVRs do become so precious people stop developing them and using them in anger it would certainly be a crying shame. Lets face it, inevitably the ongoing development of these flawed diamonds becomes completely bound up in the TVR ownership experience, and how you you choose to develop your own TVR is (and should always be) very much your own choice.
As long as the cars are being enhanced, improved and still enjoyed for the purpose they were made we really shouldn't fall into the trap of criticising fellow TVR owners for following their chosen development path, whichever way you go you're only continuing the work TVR themselves started but never were able to complete properly before they moved on to developing the next model or ultimately ran out of time/money and died as a car maker
If Peter Wheeler was still on this planet today I'm pretty sure he wouldn't deride TVR enthusiasts for putting LS engines in their TVRs, because it's just the sort of thing he did himself time and time again, he'd just be happy there was still a healthy interest in his cars and people still saw them as worthy of development using components and technology he could only dream of in his day
TVR - Buy it for a realistic price - develop it as you see fit - and drive it like you stole it
It's what PW would have wanted!
For what its worth and purely in my opinion the answer has always been very straightforward to me...
Retain TVR's Speed Six engine if:
- If you believe the speed six cars will become considered a proper thoroughbred classic in their original form (if they're not already?)
- If total originality is your master
While on the face of it this is a real shame as all the TVR models from the Griffith/Chimaera on were "in their own way" so nearly great, if you look at it another way this flawed diamond status is also the very appeal of a TVR, in many ways it gives permission to enhance & improve your TVR in ways that would be sacrilege in the traditional exotic car brand world.
TVR's are a car that very closely competes with these traditional exotics at an affordable price point you can't ignore which gives access to a population ordinary priced out of a high end sports car purchase, and long may that remain. A TVR then teases you with it's "so nearly great" recipe to the extent that you feel almost compelled to become your own development engineer.
The unspoken truth is amateur owner development of a TVR on a realistic budget is fraught with unforeseen challenges and can get very expensive very quickly, but on the flip side there are also some easy wins available without breaking the bank. Of course the best way to drive short cuts through this owner development process is to buy into the multi million pound development budget of a large scale car manufacturer, I've got great deal of respect for the TVR specialists who've developed the problematic Speed Six engine to the point it delivers acceptable reliability, but don't tell me they can compete with the might of the Chevrolet engine development team.
TVR knew all this themselves which is why they traditionally selected drive train components from the big guys in their industry, and why today the LS engine for those who just want to drive and enjoy their TVR is such a compelling option.
To me the market value and dubious thoroughbred status of these cars allows for sensible developments and such engine transplants, if TVRs do become so precious people stop developing them and using them in anger it would certainly be a crying shame. Lets face it, inevitably the ongoing development of these flawed diamonds becomes completely bound up in the TVR ownership experience, and how you you choose to develop your own TVR is (and should always be) very much your own choice.
As long as the cars are being enhanced, improved and still enjoyed for the purpose they were made we really shouldn't fall into the trap of criticising fellow TVR owners for following their chosen development path, whichever way you go you're only continuing the work TVR themselves started but never were able to complete properly before they moved on to developing the next model or ultimately ran out of time/money and died as a car maker
If Peter Wheeler was still on this planet today I'm pretty sure he wouldn't deride TVR enthusiasts for putting LS engines in their TVRs, because it's just the sort of thing he did himself time and time again, he'd just be happy there was still a healthy interest in his cars and people still saw them as worthy of development using components and technology he could only dream of in his day
TVR - Buy it for a realistic price - develop it as you see fit - and drive it like you stole it
It's what PW would have wanted!
The 'keep it pure' argument has existed for many cars for many years. I remember when I was a young man being vilified by the Stag owners club because I dropped the much better Rover V8 into my Stag after the Triumph V8 had warped both heads for the second time.
I would suggest there is one clear fact - replacing a Speed 6 with a LS lump will be expensive both for the transplant and for the loss of resale value but, if the car is a keeper, the second clear fact is that you will probably never have to do any work on the engine at anytime in the future (there are modern Corvettes on the road with 200,000miles on the original engines).
I like the Speed 6, I do not do enough miles to worry about life expectancy of hundreds of thousands of miles and, most importantly, I can't afford a new engine!
So you pays your money and you make your choice.
Good luck with whatever decision you make.
I would suggest there is one clear fact - replacing a Speed 6 with a LS lump will be expensive both for the transplant and for the loss of resale value but, if the car is a keeper, the second clear fact is that you will probably never have to do any work on the engine at anytime in the future (there are modern Corvettes on the road with 200,000miles on the original engines).
I like the Speed 6, I do not do enough miles to worry about life expectancy of hundreds of thousands of miles and, most importantly, I can't afford a new engine!
So you pays your money and you make your choice.
Good luck with whatever decision you make.
If you look at the way the classic car world is going these days you'll see the trend is very much towards the "Enhanced Classic" what the Americans refer to as a "Resto Mod" and what we in the UK will charge you £250k for (Eagle E-Type).
The extent of the enhancements and what is considered acceptable is extremely subjective and a very contentious source of much debate. The only thing the classic car world can agree on is classic cars really aren't all that great or practical to drive in the modern age which is why the likes of Singer, Frontline, Eagle and a host of others exist.
In my opinion TVRs are a classic car that had a lot of these enhancements done already, they needed them as they were being sold against much more sophisticated products from the likes of Porsche. As such TVRs were the original "Resto Mods" before their time and so represent by far the most cost effective choice for someone looking to buy an enhanced classic, you already get the braking upgrade, the five speed gearbox, the fuel injection and ergonomic/ventilation enhancements you'd be forced to add to a standard E-Type for example, all these improvements come as standard on the TVR while the cars still deliver that back to basics driving experience.
If you then choose to enhance your TVR still further you'll get an even better result because you're starting from a point that's already two thirds of the way there, and if you're someone who wants to get the best result on all levels then you simply can't ignore the LS engine option.
Like the Rover V8 made the Triumph Stag a better car, so the LS engine will make your TVR a vastly improved modern classic. It may be that these days everyone wants a Stag with the original Triumph engine and such cars command premium, but the fact remains the Stag with the properly executed Rover V8 transplant will still be the far better and more usable car today.
The extent of the enhancements and what is considered acceptable is extremely subjective and a very contentious source of much debate. The only thing the classic car world can agree on is classic cars really aren't all that great or practical to drive in the modern age which is why the likes of Singer, Frontline, Eagle and a host of others exist.
In my opinion TVRs are a classic car that had a lot of these enhancements done already, they needed them as they were being sold against much more sophisticated products from the likes of Porsche. As such TVRs were the original "Resto Mods" before their time and so represent by far the most cost effective choice for someone looking to buy an enhanced classic, you already get the braking upgrade, the five speed gearbox, the fuel injection and ergonomic/ventilation enhancements you'd be forced to add to a standard E-Type for example, all these improvements come as standard on the TVR while the cars still deliver that back to basics driving experience.
If you then choose to enhance your TVR still further you'll get an even better result because you're starting from a point that's already two thirds of the way there, and if you're someone who wants to get the best result on all levels then you simply can't ignore the LS engine option.
Like the Rover V8 made the Triumph Stag a better car, so the LS engine will make your TVR a vastly improved modern classic. It may be that these days everyone wants a Stag with the original Triumph engine and such cars command premium, but the fact remains the Stag with the properly executed Rover V8 transplant will still be the far better and more usable car today.
Edited by ChimpOnGas on Tuesday 23 August 12:04
INvest the money you would spend on the LS conversion in to the speed 6 engine.
A good rebuild, billet crank, Carillo rods/ pistons, valves guides the lot.
Seeing, TVR stamped on the top of the engine and not corvette does hold a little more clout, and whilst I feel the 6 is riddled with problems originally, the new builds are not.
Hell, for the same money you could also consider dropping in a double overdrive 6 speed gearbox such as the t56 or t6060 at the same time, and still have change left from your LS conversion!
Certainly the route I would!
A good rebuild, billet crank, Carillo rods/ pistons, valves guides the lot.
Seeing, TVR stamped on the top of the engine and not corvette does hold a little more clout, and whilst I feel the 6 is riddled with problems originally, the new builds are not.
Hell, for the same money you could also consider dropping in a double overdrive 6 speed gearbox such as the t56 or t6060 at the same time, and still have change left from your LS conversion!
Certainly the route I would!
Hahahahahhahaha well played Monty. I love that.
For me I will be going 4.7SS with knock MBE, Launch and traction... once I run that in just Eibach to add to the Nitrons some legal slicks then i'll see you all at Santa Pod
Tofts post pretty much said what I think. Also I read about an MX-5 (and other cars) running the LS its that in itself makes it lose its "special" appeal to me. I wanted a TVR not a Corvette for the whole package.
For me I will be going 4.7SS with knock MBE, Launch and traction... once I run that in just Eibach to add to the Nitrons some legal slicks then i'll see you all at Santa Pod
Tofts post pretty much said what I think. Also I read about an MX-5 (and other cars) running the LS its that in itself makes it lose its "special" appeal to me. I wanted a TVR not a Corvette for the whole package.
Some cars, like an Mx5 will see an increase in value post LS installation, but I doubt the cost would ever be recovered if done correctly.
Cars like the Sag I believe you will see little or no value increase between sound S6 and a well installed LS. All else being equal - you could argue the LS value would be less, it would really depend on the potential owner and his idea or desire for purity.
I don't think the market has demonstrated the Sag theory either way so that's all it is - my theory.
Bottom line is it's your car do with it what you will.
The work can be reversed if you really felt the need, but I think you would really need to feel bad about the conversion
Cars like the Sag I believe you will see little or no value increase between sound S6 and a well installed LS. All else being equal - you could argue the LS value would be less, it would really depend on the potential owner and his idea or desire for purity.
I don't think the market has demonstrated the Sag theory either way so that's all it is - my theory.
Bottom line is it's your car do with it what you will.
The work can be reversed if you really felt the need, but I think you would really need to feel bad about the conversion
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 23 August 16:48
nrick said:
I am not a lover of the S6 tbh, it is a good engine but not a great engine. It is noisy and doesn't produce as much power as it should, it was a fine effort from a small production car company but it does have its flaws.
Nearly 100hp per litre 15/16 years ago wasn't & still isn't bad going from a N/A engine, shame corners were cut on components.Power output was always a debatable subject. Dom provided a power curve on a std 4.0 at 315hp and 288ftlb against the 3.6 at 307hp and 245ftlb on the same dyno, this says to me that the 4l isn't breathing as well as the 3.6, and then you compare it to the S54 M3 engine which was and is a great engine of the same vintage, straight six, 24v http://mywikimotors.com/bmw-s54/
Even that engine had problems initially with small end bearings and con rod bolt failures, but is a wonderful engine.
Building an engine from scratch is a massive achievement for a low volume manufacturer, most buy an off the shelf unit and change the rocker covers, i.e. Mclaren F1, Noble, etc. for good reason.
Another candidate of the same era was the s2000 F20c at 125hp/l (using Vtech) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_F20C_engine
It is a shame that we may well be seeing the end of an era in terms of NA engines with most european manufacturers are going Forced induction. Although I love the Mclaren, the exhaust tone is a compromise of moving to turbos
Even that engine had problems initially with small end bearings and con rod bolt failures, but is a wonderful engine.
Building an engine from scratch is a massive achievement for a low volume manufacturer, most buy an off the shelf unit and change the rocker covers, i.e. Mclaren F1, Noble, etc. for good reason.
Another candidate of the same era was the s2000 F20c at 125hp/l (using Vtech) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_F20C_engine
It is a shame that we may well be seeing the end of an era in terms of NA engines with most european manufacturers are going Forced induction. Although I love the Mclaren, the exhaust tone is a compromise of moving to turbos
As some know I am the owner of a Sagaris with an LS7 installed by TopCats Racing. Having owned a Tamora prior to the Sagais I have some knowledge of the S6. Great engine however when my Sag engine went pop (and it had a full service history) the question for me was, what do I want from the car? Long and short I wanted it to be as exciting as it could be and as fast as I could reasonably make it. Power to match the looks. Decision for me was made when I went out in Warren’s LS7 T350. Pulled like a train and as one TVR engine builder told me there is no comparison re power output.
The originality question did play a part in my decision. For me TVR ownership has a history of upgrades whether that is a new Levan dash, an ACT exhaust, a Power engine upgrade, vents cut out, new interior or new wheels…. They are all no longer original, it is just a question of degree.
Ask yourself the question, if the new TVR came with two options… a new S6 option (an English built sports car engine with the same output as the old) or the Cosworth (American origin) V8 pulling 550bhp which would you choose? For an extra £10k the 550bhp option would be worth serious consideration.
I also believe that if the new TVR V8 comes out with performance figures greater than the Sag it will ask questions of the Sagaris. Why does a car that looks so aggressive not have the power to match? With a bigger better and faster new TVR on the market it could result in Sagaris prices falling. Then an LS upgrade could be an option if the base car is cheaper. Power to match the looks.
Finally, and due to circumstances my Sagaris will go up for sale next year. That has been a hard decision. So we will then know if an LS conversion has any impact on the price.
The originality question did play a part in my decision. For me TVR ownership has a history of upgrades whether that is a new Levan dash, an ACT exhaust, a Power engine upgrade, vents cut out, new interior or new wheels…. They are all no longer original, it is just a question of degree.
Ask yourself the question, if the new TVR came with two options… a new S6 option (an English built sports car engine with the same output as the old) or the Cosworth (American origin) V8 pulling 550bhp which would you choose? For an extra £10k the 550bhp option would be worth serious consideration.
I also believe that if the new TVR V8 comes out with performance figures greater than the Sag it will ask questions of the Sagaris. Why does a car that looks so aggressive not have the power to match? With a bigger better and faster new TVR on the market it could result in Sagaris prices falling. Then an LS upgrade could be an option if the base car is cheaper. Power to match the looks.
Finally, and due to circumstances my Sagaris will go up for sale next year. That has been a hard decision. So we will then know if an LS conversion has any impact on the price.
I think that perhaps one major thing to bare in mind is this, A lot of the new performance cars with more power come with all kinds of electronic trickery to keep the car on the road when pushing on. A TVR does not. With the massive amounts or torque from the LS lumps, I would think you'd have to be careful with the throttle most times.
I say this because even in my humble S6 4.3 I lost traction in 3rd yesterday on a very slightly damp road, and ended up fish tailing - one a straight bit of road! I did put my foot down quite hard, though. And the LS engines have what, 100bhp more and much more torque? Proper traction control would be the minimum required to go with the conversion, surely?
I say this because even in my humble S6 4.3 I lost traction in 3rd yesterday on a very slightly damp road, and ended up fish tailing - one a straight bit of road! I did put my foot down quite hard, though. And the LS engines have what, 100bhp more and much more torque? Proper traction control would be the minimum required to go with the conversion, surely?
chris watton said:
I think that perhaps one major thing to bare in mind is this, A lot of the new performance cars with more power come with all kinds of electronic trickery to keep the car on the road when pushing on. A TVR does not. With the massive amounts or torque from the LS lumps, I would think you'd have to be careful with the throttle most times.
I say this because even in my humble S6 4.3 I lost traction in 3rd yesterday on a very slightly damp road, and ended up fish tailing - one a straight bit of road! I did put my foot down quite hard, though. And the LS engines have what, 100bhp more and much more torque? Proper traction control would be the minimum required to go with the conversion, surely?
I dont drive mine in the wet, or if I do its gently gently. No problems in the dry though. Super sticky tyres help though.I say this because even in my humble S6 4.3 I lost traction in 3rd yesterday on a very slightly damp road, and ended up fish tailing - one a straight bit of road! I did put my foot down quite hard, though. And the LS engines have what, 100bhp more and much more torque? Proper traction control would be the minimum required to go with the conversion, surely?
Incognegro said:
Hahahahahhahaha well played Monty. I love that.
For me I will be going 4.7SS with knock MBE, Launch and traction... once I run that in just Eibach to add to the Nitrons some legal slicks then i'll see you all at Santa Pod
Tofts post pretty much said what I think. Also I read about an MX-5 (and other cars) running the LS its that in itself makes it lose its "special" appeal to me. I wanted a TVR not a Corvette for the whole package.
See you at the Santa Pod start line with my For me I will be going 4.7SS with knock MBE, Launch and traction... once I run that in just Eibach to add to the Nitrons some legal slicks then i'll see you all at Santa Pod
Tofts post pretty much said what I think. Also I read about an MX-5 (and other cars) running the LS its that in itself makes it lose its "special" appeal to me. I wanted a TVR not a Corvette for the whole package.
unclemark123 said:
chris watton said:
I think that perhaps one major thing to bare in mind is this, A lot of the new performance cars with more power come with all kinds of electronic trickery to keep the car on the road when pushing on. A TVR does not. With the massive amounts or torque from the LS lumps, I would think you'd have to be careful with the throttle most times.
I say this because even in my humble S6 4.3 I lost traction in 3rd yesterday on a very slightly damp road, and ended up fish tailing - one a straight bit of road! I did put my foot down quite hard, though. And the LS engines have what, 100bhp more and much more torque? Proper traction control would be the minimum required to go with the conversion, surely?
I dont drive mine in the wet, or if I do its gently gently. No problems in the dry though. Super sticky tyres help though.I say this because even in my humble S6 4.3 I lost traction in 3rd yesterday on a very slightly damp road, and ended up fish tailing - one a straight bit of road! I did put my foot down quite hard, though. And the LS engines have what, 100bhp more and much more torque? Proper traction control would be the minimum required to go with the conversion, surely?
And I have no intention of driving it in the wet when I started out.
TVRMs said:
chris watton said:
Proper traction control would be the minimum required to go with the conversion, surely?
Driver upgrade maybe 
Just a thought.....and it's an upgrade that's transferable between vehicles
yep.
That too! I am crap.
ETA - However - I remember on these forums a decade ago, there was a fellow PH-er from S. Africa who had a T350. He loved it. He died, unfortunately. He was apparently racing a Mercedes (I think, memory is a little hazy), and lost control and went off the elevated road, with the car landing upside down about 40 feet below. AFAIK, the other driver didn't go off the road.
Most of us get the red mist now and again, we're not always in as much control as perhaps we should be or think we are, it only takes the most fleeting of moments.
But I am speaking from my own quite timid POV and taking into account my own limitations.
Edited by chris watton on Thursday 25th August 20:05
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