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Beefmeister
Original Poster
10,804 posts
99 months
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It saddens me so much to see manual gearboxes become more and more extinct.
I want to shift gears myself - but i can see in a few years Porsche will be the only company offering a manual sportscar, and to be honest even they look doubtful after the 991.
As an example, how amazing would the new Jag F-Type be with its supercharged 375bhp V6 and slick manual gearbox? Seriously doubt it'll come with anything but an auto though...
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George H
10,210 posts
33 months
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Beefmeister said: I want to shift gears myself You can with paddles.
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v8woollie
2,396 posts
14 months
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George H said: You can with paddles. Paddles are for canoes 
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George H
10,210 posts
33 months
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v8woollie said: Paddles are for canoes Or for performance cars 
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Beefmeister
Original Poster
10,804 posts
99 months
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v8woollie said: Paddles are for canoes Haha, brilliant. I may steal that one for an article i'm writing!
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Simon T
1,652 posts
142 months
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Beefmeister said: It saddens me so much to see manual gearboxes become more and more extinct.
I want to shift gears myself - but i can see in a few years Porsche will be the only company offering a manual sportscar, and to be honest even they look doubtful after the 991.
As an example, how amazing would the new Jag F-Type be with its supercharged 375bhp V6 and slick manual gearbox? Seriously doubt it'll come with anything but an auto though... people probsbly protested when pneumatic tyres started to appear, same for servo assisted brakes. What about fuel injection, fly by wire throttles - I want to open the throttles myself? I have paddle shift on my race car - its far better than the stick shift. is it that the current road car systems do not offer an improvement, perceived or otherwise on the traditional system or is that we tend to resist change? S
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Beefmeister
Original Poster
10,804 posts
99 months
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Simon T said: people probsbly protested when pneumatic tyres started to appear, same for servo assisted brakes. What about fuel injection, fly by wire throttles - I want to open the throttles myself? I have paddle shift on my race car - its far better than the stick shift. is it that the current road car systems do not offer an improvement, perceived or otherwise on the traditional system or is that we tend to resist change? S A very reasoned statement. For me, it's more about the mechanical connection to the car, the feeling that i am controlling it, rather than the other way around. Example for me: A while ago i drove my favourite section of blacktop in a 458 and a 997 GT3 RS. I went a good 15-20mph faster in the 458 and it was exhilarating but i got to the end and pondered "How much of that was actually me?" In the RS i got to the end and my pulse was racing, while i knew that it was all me. Every perfectly timed downshift, blipping the throttle gave me a thrill, a sense of achievement. As an engineer, I am incredibly impressed by the dual clutch boxes, and indeed if i were to have a car as a daily driver it would be some kind of auto. But when i want to drive, really get the most driving pleasure I can out of a few miles in a sportscar, i want to control it myself.
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jonby
1,626 posts
26 months
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Beefmeister said: Simon T said: people probsbly protested when pneumatic tyres started to appear, same for servo assisted brakes. What about fuel injection, fly by wire throttles - I want to open the throttles myself? I have paddle shift on my race car - its far better than the stick shift. is it that the current road car systems do not offer an improvement, perceived or otherwise on the traditional system or is that we tend to resist change? S A very reasoned statement. For me, it's more about the mechanical connection to the car, the feeling that i am controlling it, rather than the other way around. Example for me: A while ago i drove my favourite section of blacktop in a 458 and a 997 GT3 RS. I went a good 15-20mph faster in the 458 and it was exhilarating but i got to the end and pondered "How much of that was actually [/i]me?[/i]" In the RS i got to the end and my pulse was racing, while i knew that it was all me. Every perfectly timed downshift, blipping the throttle gave me a thrill, a sense of achievement. As an engineer, I am incredibly impressed by the dual clutch boxes, and indeed if i were to have a car as a daily driver it would be some kind of auto. But when i want to drive, really get the most driving pleasure I can out of a few miles in a sportscar, i want to control it myself. I think the clue is in the use of the word 'racecar'. A race car is by definition, engineered with a primary function of being as fast as possible - paddleshift therefore rules the roost On a sunday drive, it's about enjoyment & sensations, not timing yourself. For many people, satisfaction of improving technique, enjoyment & sensations are more easily achieved in a manual - I took a TT DBS coupe out with standard sports seats and it simply wasn't exciting enough compared to my DD. My V8V may not have as much power or accellerate quite as quickly as the DBS but I find it more exciting to drive and more different to my DD. Of course it's horses for courses. Some people want a sports car that still feel special even on a 5 minute drive to the newsagent (e.g V12v or GT3 RS, others want a car that is more benign for such trips and only feels 'special' when it's being pushed (e.g MP4 12C)
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Vantagefan
531 posts
39 months
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The DBS was first launched as a stick manual and then TT. V12 Vantage is only a stick manual and I think the One-77 is only an automated manual because a normal human would struggle if it was a stick.
Current trend seems to point to it being a manual if it is a raw sports car and TT for a tourer. My money is a stick manual or ASM at launch with TT in 12 months time (to coincide with Volante - as with current DBS).
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cmoose
18,577 posts
98 months
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George H said: You can with paddles. Wrong. All you can do is pull paddles!
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cmoose
18,577 posts
98 months
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Simon T said: people probsbly protested when pneumatic tyres started to appear, same for servo assisted brakes. What about fuel injection, fly by wire throttles - I want to open the throttles myself? I have paddle shift on my race car - its far better than the stick shift. is it that the current road car systems do not offer an improvement, perceived or otherwise on the traditional system or is that we tend to resist change? S The other side of your professed coin is why stop at the gearbox? Why not automate steering and braking? Press a button to steer left and let the car work out the details. I know it may feel like you're no longer in control but that's just you resisting change. The bottom line for me is the huge amount of involvement and satisfaction that comes from operating a good manual box. Why would one want to give that up?
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KarlFranz
1,033 posts
139 months
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cmoose said: The other side of your professed coin is why stop at the gearbox? Why not automate steering and braking? Press a button to steer left and let the car work out the details. I know it may feel like you're no longer in control but that's just you resisting change.
The bottom line for me is the huge amount of involvement and satisfaction that comes from operating a good manual box. Why would one want to give that up? Ah, the old debating technique of taking the argument to its ridiculous extreme to make your point—I love it. Lucikily; AM frequents this forum and with any hope they realize that, for many of us, there is still a great satisfaction in changing gears ourselves. Personally, AM would lose me (and maybe countless others) as customers of future models if they drop the manual option.
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jonby
1,626 posts
26 months
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cmoose said: Simon T said: people probsbly protested when pneumatic tyres started to appear, same for servo assisted brakes. What about fuel injection, fly by wire throttles - I want to open the throttles myself? I have paddle shift on my race car - its far better than the stick shift. is it that the current road car systems do not offer an improvement, perceived or otherwise on the traditional system or is that we tend to resist change? S The other side of your professed coin is why stop at the gearbox? Why not automate steering and braking? Press a button to steer left and let the car work out the details. I know it may feel like you're no longer in control but that's just you resisting change. The bottom line for me is the huge amount of involvement and satisfaction that comes from operating a good manual box. Why would one want to give that up? My daily driver is an Audi A7. It's 'better' in most respects than my Aston - it has more room, larger boot, better made, better tech, comfier seats, better wipers, better climate control, better lights, better sat nav, better handbrake, better instrumentation, more advanced much 'better' gearbox etc not to mention costs (not just purchase price, but cheaper servicing, better fuel economy, cheaper tax, cheaper insurance, etc). Also, it has tech like auto braking if you get to close to the car in front, better parking sensors, radar cruise, night vision, DAB radio, lane change assist, blind spot assist, etc, etc, etc You can go as fast as you would realistically like to in the Audi and the acceleration is sufficient away from the B roads But I get more satisfation from a run out in the Aston every time. I'm asked by non enthusiasts why I don't take the Audi on a mostly motorway/A road journey to say Paris (I live in Mcr), for which the Audi, on paper, is much better suited. The answer is that in the Audi, I'd be bored silly by the time I got to Folkstone, let alone Paris, but in the Aston, I'd take a detour when I got back home just for the sake of doing a few more miles in it..........
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cmoose
18,577 posts
98 months
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KarlFranz said: cmoose said: The other side of your professed coin is why stop at the gearbox? Why not automate steering and braking? Press a button to steer left and let the car work out the details. I know it may feel like you're no longer in control but that's just you resisting change.
The bottom line for me is the huge amount of involvement and satisfaction that comes from operating a good manual box. Why would one want to give that up? Ah, the old debating technique of taking the argument to its ridiculous extreme to make your point—I love it. Lucikily; AM frequents this forum and with any hope they realize that, for many of us, there is still a great satisfaction in changing gears ourselves. Personally, AM would lose me (and maybe countless others) as customers of future models if they drop the manual option. Why is it ridiculous to automate steering but not ridiculous to automate the gearchange? Then again, we appear to be in agreement that a proper manual is a wonderful thing. However, I think you're wrong if you take the view that AM would suffer if it dropped manuals altogether. That's the way the market is heading, sadly. Ferrari has dumped manuals. Pagani has. The new McLaren in paddle-only. Same goes for the Lambo Aventador. Hardly anyone in Europe buys manual Porsche 911s - I doubt they would even have offered a manual if it weren't for the fact that the US is still roughly 50/50 PDK/manual. If the next Astons don't have dual-clutch it will only be because AM can't afford it. They will of course claim it's because they want to keep the cars "connected" and "visceral" but it will be b  ks!
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George H
10,210 posts
33 months
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cmoose said: Then again, we appear to be in agreement that a proper manual is a wonderful thing. However, I think you're wrong if you take the view that AM would suffer if it dropped manuals altogether. That's the way the market is heading, sadly. Ferrari has dumped manuals. Pagani has. The new McLaren in paddle-only. Same goes for the Lambo Aventador. Hardly anyone in Europe buys manual Porsche 911s - I doubt they would even have offered a manual if it weren't for the fact that the US is still roughly 50/50 PDK/manual. If the next Astons don't have dual-clutch it will only be because AM can't afford it. They will of course claim it's because they want to keep the cars "connected" and "visceral" but it will be b ks! I agree with everything you say apart from a manual being wonderful! 7 speed dual clutch semi auto, with launch control and different modes for how brutal you want the change to be is what I want to see No manual option preferably, save money by not even bothering to develop one.
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jonby
1,626 posts
26 months
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cmoose said: Why is it ridiculous to automate steering but not ridiculous to automate the gearchange? Then again, we appear to be in agreement that a proper manual is a wonderful thing. However, I think you're wrong if you take the view that AM would suffer if it dropped manuals altogether. That's the way the market is heading, sadly. Ferrari has dumped manuals. Pagani has. The new McLaren in paddle-only. Same goes for the Lambo Aventador. Hardly anyone in Europe buys manual Porsche 911s - I doubt they would even have offered a manual if it weren't for the fact that the US is still roughly 50/50 PDK/manual. If the next Astons don't have dual-clutch it will only be because AM can't afford it. They will of course claim it's because they want to keep the cars "connected" and "visceral" but it will be b ks! I would reluctantly accept this IF AM could offer a great dual clutch. All the firms you've mentioned either do, or offer in the instance of Lamborghini & Pagani, single clutch automated manual akin to sportshift. But AM currently only offer conventional auto as the paddle option in their V12s (ONE 77 aside) - that's my concern
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yeti
6,905 posts
144 months
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George H said: No manual option preferably, save money by not even bothering to develop one. They just drop in a box from a third party manufacturer, very few development costs - that's why manual are cheaper and the no-cost option, they need little intergration! Why 'preferably', just becaue you don't want one? If there had been no manual DB9, I would be driving a 575 Maranello. I doubt I'm alone, most Vantages are manual shift - still seems to be the 'sporting' driver's choice. 'Sports car' driver, fair enough. But a big GT... manual please or paddle operated automatic for lazy old (and young) men who want to pretend they're actually driving. So like we have now basically
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George H
10,210 posts
33 months
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yeti said: They just drop in a box from a third party manufacturer, very few development costs - that's why manual are cheaper and the no-cost option, they need little intergration! Why 'preferably', just becaue you don't want one? If there had been no manual DB9, I would be driving a 575 Maranello. I doubt I'm alone, most Vantages are manual shift - still seems to be the 'sporting' driver's choice. 'Sports car' driver, fair enough. But a big GT... manual please or paddle operated automatic for lazy old (and young) men who want to pretend they're actually driving. So like we have now basically When there is a manual, the better gearbox is always an option - therefore more expensive. If they got rid of a manual, it would get rid of that (although chances are they would just up the price to cover it). It would also be more in line with the competition - mainly Maserati who offer an automated manual option (MC Shift) and regular auto. I'd like to see the overall sales figures for AM of auto or automated manual vs manual. I'd guess maybe 10% of new cars are manual? A manual might be considered a 'sporting' driver's choice, but in reality it's the oposite, surely? Manuals have had their day, it's time to move on!
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cmoose
18,577 posts
98 months
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George H said: A manual might be considered a 'sporting' driver's choice, but in reality it's the oposite, surely? No, the reality is that the majority of new Aston Martin purchases are effectively generic luxury goods purchases by wealthy people, not purist sports cars bought by hard core driving enthusiasts, of whom there are few and fewer still who can afford new Astons. Which is why most buyers aren't interested in a full manual gearbox.
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George H
10,210 posts
33 months
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cmoose said: George H said: A manual might be considered a 'sporting' driver's choice, but in reality it's the oposite, surely? No, the reality is that the majority of new Aston Martin purchases are effectively generic luxury goods purchases by wealthy people, not purist sports cars bought by hard core driving enthusiasts, of whom there are few and fewer still who can afford new Astons. Which is why most buyers aren't interested in a full manual gearbox. The point I was making is a manual gearbox is in no way sporty. It's no where near as fast as an automated manual - ergo it's not the sporty choice!
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