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v8woollie
Original Poster
2,419 posts
14 months
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To continue the saga of the incorrect tyre sizes on my 2007 V8V, where the nearside front was measured by TDI (when I had the FRS setup done) at 7mm larger than the offside front and the two rears. I met with the man from Bridgestone today at Grange and he spent over an hour testing the tyres and concluded they were the same size. To test his theory, without my knowing, he swapped the front tyres and asked me to drive the car and see what I thought. It still pulled left, under braking as well as when driving straight, and the steering wheel was still a few degrees lower on the right hand side.
So off I went back to TDI and they re-measured the car and this time all four tyres were within 1-2mm of each other. They cannot understand why there was a mis-reading the first time, but that is what happened and they then got to work to level the steering wheel and try and get rid of the pull. All credit to TDI they did all the work and would not accept any payment as they saw it as rectifying an error in the original work. The engineer took the car to a centre with some plates to test the braking force at each wheel as it was decided that this was a worthwhile check since the steering was also pulling left under braking. The result were as follows:
Nearside front: 522
Offside front: 477
Nearside rear: 306
Offside rear: 237
So the left side of the car is braking much more strongly than the right side. They also think that maybe there is some binding of the brakes which may be causing the pulling to the left when driving as opposed to the pull when braking.
To cap it all, on the drive home the steering wheel is still not level when going straight. It is a few degrees off and it annoying to say the least. I called TDI and they said to get the braking force equalised and then bring it back to them. I phoned Grange and asked them to add this to the list when the car goes in next week for some other things. I'm getting frustrated at having to keep going back and forth to get this rectified.
Right now I am starting to wish I had never started down this route of geometry settings and to be honest I'm maybe starting to regret getting the car. I just want it to go in a straight line without pulling to the left, to be able to brake without pulling to the left and for the steering wheel to be level when going in a straight line. I didn't think that was too much to ask.
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BingoBob
1,080 posts
16 months
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That is very frustrating - I feel your pain.
One thing shocks me more than anything else in what you say - that the steering wheel isn't straight after having the geometry adjusted.
This is a very basic setup and when the geometry is spot on and the wheels pointing in the right directions, then it should be obvious to check the steering wheel. Otherwise, the tie rods are adjusted accordingly.
When you add in the incorrect measurement of the tyres, then I would be tempted to question their work. I don't know them from adam, so maybe I'm missing something. That is just what I would be feeling.
As for braking inequalities you're at about 10% at the front which isn't great and more than 20% at the rear which is almost MOT failure territory. What's interesting is that both weak braking points are on the same side of the car, whereas, unless I'm missing something, the circuits are diagonal.
If it were me I would do this:
1. Change the brake fluid - using some ATE blue or similar in so you know you've got all the old stuff out.
2. Change the pads.
3. Take it to another geometry place to get a second opinion / setup.
That's the basics. Why isn't the dealer sorting this all out for you? Is it warranty work?
There's no reason I can think of why the car wouldn't drive straight if the geometry is correct and the brakes are free.
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BingoBob
1,080 posts
16 months
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Silly question: could a knackered diff cause the car to pull to one side?
While I'm at it, I presume that we are talking about 4 wheel geometry, not just front?
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Simon T
1,653 posts
142 months
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v8woollie
Original Poster
2,419 posts
14 months
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BingoBob said: That is very frustrating - I feel your pain.
One thing shocks me more than anything else in what you say - that the steering wheel isn't straight after having the geometry adjusted.
This is a very basic setup and when the geometry is spot on and the wheels pointing in the right directions, then it should be obvious to check the steering wheel. Otherwise, the tie rods are adjusted accordingly.
When you add in the incorrect measurement of the tyres, then I would be tempted to question their work. I don't know them from adam, so maybe I'm missing something. That is just what I would be feeling.
As for braking inequalities you're at about 10% at the front which isn't great and more than 20% at the rear which is almost MOT failure territory. What's interesting is that both weak braking points are on the same side of the car, whereas, unless I'm missing something, the circuits are diagonal.
If it were me I would do this:
1. Change the brake fluid - using some ATE blue or similar in so you know you've got all the old stuff out.
2. Change the pads.
3. Take it to another geometry place to get a second opinion / setup.
That's the basics. Why isn't the dealer sorting this all out for you? Is it warranty work?
There's no reason I can think of why the car wouldn't drive straight if the geometry is correct and the brakes are free. The TDI chaps know their stuff. They are fully trained engineers, not fitters, and Sam is a geometry expert. He was surprised as I was that the steering was still off centre. They have done many fast road set-ups on the V8 Vantage and were recommended on PH. I am sure we will get there on the steering centring. They cannot understand how the error reading in the tyre happened. The problem with a dealer is that they don't have the equipment to do a full geometry setup. That is why I went to TDI as they have the Snap On machine. I could just leave the car at the dealer but I did hear one of the sales people say that to align the wheel they could remove it and reset it on the splines to be straight. Not a good idea! I have shown the dealer the numbers from the brake force test. I will give them the car and ask that they investigate, fix, test and show me the results. I will then give TDI one more chance to do the fast road setup and set the steering straight.
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v8woollie
Original Poster
2,419 posts
14 months
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BingoBob said: Silly question: could a knackered diff cause the car to pull to one side?
While I'm at it, I presume that we are talking about 4 wheel geometry, not just front? You are correct in that it is four wheel geometry.
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v8woollie
Original Poster
2,419 posts
14 months
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Simon T said: Has it been in a bump? Not as far as I am aware. Not sure how to check that though.
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Neil1300R
2,847 posts
47 months
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So is the steering wheel not straight when you are driving because it is always pulling to the left, so you have to have a steering input, or is the steering wheel just not on straight?
Very surprised that the TDI guys didn't get it sorted.
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yeti
6,923 posts
144 months
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Sorry to hear matey... One thing is for sure, you don't go back to the same geometry people hoping its third time lucky  I'm thinking dealer ASAP and have them sort it all out to your satisfaction. When you haven't had the car long it wouldn't take long to sour the experience which would be sad as you started so well and had some grand plans! Hang in there 
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Jockman
7,058 posts
29 months
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v8woollie said: The problem with a dealer is that they don't have the equipment to do a full geometry setup. That is why I went to TDI as they have the Snap On machine. Last time I was at Wilmslow there was definitely a Hunter machine sitting there  Perhaps try simply resetting to standard factory settings to see if this has any impact? 
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v8woollie
Original Poster
2,419 posts
14 months
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Neil1300R said: So is the steering wheel not straight when you are driving because it is always pulling to the left, so you have to have a steering input, or is the steering wheel just not on straight?
Very surprised that the TDI guys didn't get it sorted. I am assuming that when the car was new the steering wheel was on straight. When driving, on many roads if I let go of the wheel the car will drift left. When braking it pulls left but the brake force results point to the cause of uneven braking there. To be honest I feel as though I am steering to the right to go straight. I have had that since I picked up the car and thought the TDI setup would make things right. The red herring of the uneven rolling diameter has wasted some time and effort and the steering wheel is still not straight. I just want to leave the car somewhere and pick it up fixed. Just don't see why this is so hard.
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v8woollie
Original Poster
2,419 posts
14 months
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yeti said: Sorry to hear matey... One thing is for sure, you don't go back to the same geometry people hoping its third time lucky I'm thinking dealer ASAP and have them sort it all out to your satisfaction. When you haven't had the car long it wouldn't take long to sour the experience which would be sad as you started so well and had some grand plans! Hang in there The car is booked into Grange for the clear lights to be fitted (got a great deal on that!), the Chewbacca sound to be fixed and the mod for the hatchback to stop water going into the car when opened to be fitted. I have added to the list that I want the brake force to be measured, made even each side and the results provided to me. Can they straighten up the steering? I don't know as the tracking front and rear was done in February this year and checked again before I picked up the car as I had mentioned the pulling to the left when I did the test drive - and it still pulls left and the wheel isn't straight. I'm hanging in there but it is so frustrating.
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v8woollie
Original Poster
2,419 posts
14 months
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Jockman said: Last time I was at Wilmslow there was definitely a Hunter machine sitting there Perhaps try simply resetting to standard factory settings to see if this has any impact? Thanks for that information. I will ask Grange what they have available. As they don't do MOTs they don't have the braking plates so they will have to go outside to check that.
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KarlFranz
1,041 posts
139 months
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v8woollie said: I could just leave the car at the dealer but I did hear one of the sales people say that to align the wheel they could remove it and reset it on the splines to be straight. Not a good idea! That sales person does not know what he/she is talking about. The steering wheel hub on the Vantage/DB is not splined, it is hexagonal. That means that it can only be adjusted in 60 degree increments. The proper way to straighten the wheel is to first set the steering wheel level, then adjust the tie rods so that the car tracks straight.
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X7LDA
544 posts
73 months
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KarlFranz said: v8woollie said: I could just leave the car at the dealer but I did hear one of the sales people say that to align the wheel they could remove it and reset it on the splines to be straight. Not a good idea! That sales person does not know what he/she is talking about. The steering wheel hub on the Vantage/DB is not splined, it is hexagonal. That means that it can only be adjusted in 60 degree increments. The proper way to straighten the wheel is to first set the steering wheel level, then adjust the tie rods so that the car tracks straight. What he said... And i'm surprised TDI don't know this. Personally i'd go somewhere else!
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v8woollie
Original Poster
2,419 posts
14 months
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Other than tramping up to Centre Gravity where Nick had his DBS set up, are there any good places in the south that can do the geometry set up for me?
After the initial TDI set up the car did respond better and turn in seemed sharper. However, I have never got rid of the steering pull to the left ( although it was reduced a lot) but I remain with the steering wheel being down on the right and the left pull under braking.
I will ask the dealer to re-check and sort out the uneven brake force and set the steering level but of course that will then compromise the set up I have had done at TDI so I may a well get it re-done either there or somewhere else.
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BingoBob
1,080 posts
16 months
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Setting the geometry isn't rocket science. I would get the dealer to set it back to factory before doing anything else - at least for diagnostic purposes. Especially if it's warranty work. They will have their own geometry place.
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yeti
6,923 posts
144 months
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Woollie, I wonder, with the car obviously pulling left under braking with the poory distributes brake forces and the wheel not on straight, how much of the left pull is road camber and you possibly over-focussing on it? Certainly not teaching anyone to suck eggs, but all cars pull to the left at least some of the time on British roads, and I think those with an aggressive fast road setup may do even more as 'fast road' is generally similar to a flat track set-up?
Some roads I find myself applying quite a firm right hand pressure to stay straight... I think probably the best place to test is the middle lane of a motorway as many of them have left and right camber for drainage - though others will have the apex of the camber in the central reservation! You should be able to eyeball the difference...
Quite disconcerting driving in France initially where UK cars track straight or pull slightly right due to camber being in the opposite direction!
Just a thought...
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peterr96
1,697 posts
44 months
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v8woollie said: Other than tramping up to Centre Gravity where Nick had his DBS set up, are there any good places in the south that can do the geometry set up for me?
After the initial TDI set up the car did respond better and turn in seemed sharper. However, I have never got rid of the steering pull to the left ( although it was reduced a lot) but I remain with the steering wheel being down on the right and the left pull under braking.
I will ask the dealer to re-check and sort out the uneven brake force and set the steering level but of course that will then compromise the set up I have had done at TDI so I may a well get it re-done either there or somewhere else. Woollie Surely that inbalance in braking cannot be right. That has to go back to the dealer for them to resolve. You've got more stopping power on the nearside than offside so I would expect that to pull left under brakes, which is what you're experiencing Once that is corrected and if the problem persists it occurs to me that the geometry checks are done static. Has the possibility of a knackered damper been considered and discounted. Under braking the nose will squat. If that isn't equal both sides then the geo under braking will be impacted, something that TDI would not be able to account for. As an aside I went to TDI on Saturday and had geo set. I've not had opportunity to do much driving yet but first impressions are that it feels much more "on it's toes" and responsive rather than ploughing on. When they were doing ours they were exceedingly concious of making sure the steering wheel was in the correct position during the alignment. They sat me in the car and told me to hold it there! Are you saying that on a flat non-cambered road hands off the steering wheel yours doesn't drive in a straight line and tracks to the left? If so there has to be something fundamentally wrong. I guess I'd echo whats already been said. Give it back to the dealer and tell them to sort it out. Once you get it back you may want to pop it back to TDI to get them to "fast road" it. I'm sure they'd look after you. I hope you get it sorted! It's clearly not right and needs resolving before you'll be happy.
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v8woollie
Original Poster
2,419 posts
14 months
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peterr96 said: Woollie
Surely that inbalance in braking cannot be right. That has to go back to the dealer for them to resolve. You've got more stopping power on the nearside than offside so I would expect that to pull left under brakes, which is what you're experiencing
Once that is corrected and if the problem persists it occurs to me that the geometry checks are done static.
Has the possibility of a knackered damper been considered and discounted.
Under braking the nose will squat. If that isn't equal both sides then the geo under braking will be impacted, something that TDI would not be able to account for.
As an aside I went to TDI on Saturday and had geo set. I've not had opportunity to do much driving yet but first impressions are that it feels much more "on it's toes" and responsive rather than ploughing on.
When they were doing ours they were exceedingly concious of making sure the steering wheel was in the correct position during the alignment. They sat me in the car and told me to hold it there!
Are you saying that on a flat non-cambered road hands off the steering wheel yours doesn't drive in a straight line and tracks to the left?
If so there has to be something fundamentally wrong.
I guess I'd echo whats already been said. Give it back to the dealer and tell them to sort it out.
Once you get it back you may want to pop it back to TDI to get them to "fast road" it. I'm sure they'd look after you.
I hope you get it sorted! It's clearly not right and needs resolving before you'll be happy.
Definitely agree that the braking has to be fixed by the dealer and I will be asking for that to be done under warranty. When the TDI FRS was first done no-one was in the car but the steering wheel was set straight and braced inside the car. However, when Sam took it for a drive he did notice the left pull under braking and also that the steering wheel was slightly down on the righthand side. When they re-meausred that is when they found the nearside front tyre measured 7mm larger than the offside front, so it was decided to not make any more changes until that was resolved. Sadly the resolution was a mis-measurement at TDI And the tyres are in fact both the same size. When I went back to TDI yesterday they had someone sit inside the car while it was re-checked. The young person doing the set-up did say that a camber angle at the front wasn't set right and that was then changed. The person sitting in the car then drove it to have the brake force test done. When he returned he said he felt the steering wheel was straight but that the brake force was unequal and the figures showed why the car would pull to the left. So it was decided to get the brakes attended to before doing anything else as any bidning of the brakes coudl also be causing some left pull which my be compensated by sterring slightly more right. I can see TDI's point of view in that they want the braking force and brake pads to be checked to ensure that they are correctly set before doing anything else. I guess that if they centre the steering and then the left pull is resolved by the dealer then the car may steer with the wheel slight down on the lefthand side if I am conpensating at the moment with some righthand correction. I had to rush home for a conference call ( Thurrock to Hatfield in 35 mins ) but I noticed as soon as I got onto some straight road that the steering wheel was in fact more down at the righthand side than before. So my choices as I see them are: a) Let Grange have the car and ask that the uneven braking force is rectified and that the geometry is reset to factory specification (not just tracking but camber, castor etc. - if they can do that at the dealer) and that the steering wheel is set to level when driving in a straight line. If it then drives OK I may just forget FRS set-ups for now. b) Let Grange rectify the uneven braking force and go back to TDI to get the steering wheel set straight and re-check that the FRS is correctly applied. Having met and spoken to Sam, Mark and Lewis they really do seem to know their stuff so I do have some confidence left that they can do this, albeit the mis-measurement of the tyre diameter, the subsequent wasted time and the fact that the steering still isn't set level when driving straight are slowly eroding that confidence. Which to do for the best is my concern.
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