DB9, problem with oiled up Air Filters

[SS972]

Hi,
been thinking about fitting separators to my 9 and found those:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Universal-Aluminium-silv...

as ideal as could be nicely located,one per bank on the chassis rail below the brake master cylinder.Had a long discussion with 3200GT about it,he is very helpfull.

[MaverickV12]

3200gt said:

Mav, Been there and done that, that's why I went the dump tank route. If you want to have a chat through it then I have PH mailed my mobile number to you.

3200GT, sorry I did not get back to you today, work got in the way and taking the camshaft cover off was a bugger I am very interested in circumnavigating the oil seperator, I can see that the 2 breatherpipes from the camshaft cover vent into the front of the huge inlet manifold. I am assumming that we disconnect these, seal off the manifold vent intake and then redirect the pipe. The pipe comes from the rear to the front and into the manifold.

So I'm thinking that I trace the pipe back to the source and redirect the pipe.

A question .... does not the manifold (whilst sucking in air) create a vacuum that pulls oil through the tube?

If I disconnect the pipe. There will be no vacuum, will the oil still be, "pushed", not, "sucked", along the pipe?

3200GT, if its ok, can I give you a call tomorrow morning, as I don't have any rubber pipes or heat shielding, and I don't know where to re-route the pipes. I could try some trial and error, but I don't want to re-invent the wheel, especially if you have already done it. Photos would be great if you have any ........

[MaverickV12]

Lunablack said:

Could you not place new oil separators in a new more accessible position within the engine bay, and re-pipe to them...

And just leave the originals where they are...??

I guess in theory you could, but in practice there is such little room I don't know where they would go. The originals cannot be moved (unless the head is removed) so they suck up the oil and the pipes would have to go to another oil seperator, but I don't know how big they are and where they would be placed. If you look at the other tiny valves that came in the pack, they are in the depths of behind the engine, small hands or not, you'd have to have hands like a 2 year old to get there. Even then I don't see how you would connect to them.

So you have the main 2 seperators that cannot be moved, then you have 2 more seperator valves that just cannot be accessed. Believe me, I have tried. Unless the engine is out, I feel that the only viable option is to discharge the oil into a tank etc.

I even considered cleaning out the seperators insitu, but the problem is, the petrol or turps, would then go into the engine .....

Personally I feel the only option is - bypass and discharge.

......... unless anyone else has any ideas ............ boy oh boy, I'm willing to listen

[MaverickV12]

SS972 said:

Hi,been thinking about fitting separators to my 9 and found those: as ideal as could be nicely located,one per bank on the chassis rail below the brake master cylinder.Had a long discussion with 3200GT about it,he is very helpfull.

Hello Sebastian, nice to have our European Cousins interested in our marque ....

I looked at the eBay part, I can see how it would fit in the car, how would you empty it? I hope to phone 3200GT tomorrow and assumming he is available to talk, then I can catch up about this idea. A worst case scenario would be to discharge the pipe through the engine bay and onto the ground, its oil vapour so in theory it would do that, but that is certainly not an option if anything else can be done.

How would you empty the dump tank?

[drofnavi]

I'm very interested in this project. I have played with the Chrysler / Jeep V8 Hemi engines for a while now, these have a similar problem in that they draw oil into the inlet, causing detonation etc. A catch tank between the crankcase vent and the inlet manifold is the only way to stop this. There are several bolt on kits on the market for these engines. The tank simply needs to be emptied periodically. I really dont see why this wouldn't be an acceptable solution with a properly designed system.

These engines also run on 0w 40 oil on the 6.1 litre version, but run perfectly well on 5w 40 and perhaps run quieter.

[MaverickV12]

drofnavi said:

A catch tank between the crankcase vent and the inlet manifold is the only way to stop this. There are several bolt on kits on the market for these engines. The tank simply needs to be emptied periodically. I really dont see why this wouldn't be an acceptable solution with a properly designed system.

Thanks for your interest. Do you know the layout of the V12? if so, I'm all ears about where a dump tank would go, any photos?

You see the eBay link above, is that a good item, in your opinion? Would you use it?

Thanks

[drofnavi]

Try a Google search on Chrysler or Jeep SRT8 oil catch cans and read up on some of the solutions there.

I have a V12 Vantage, but it's new and I havn't tinkered much with it yet, only cosmetics.

Edited by drofnavi on Thursday 17th January 20:38

[SS972]

MaverickV12 said:

Hello Sebastian, nice to have our European Cousins interested in our marque ....

I looked at the eBay part, I can see how it would fit in the car, how would you empty it? I hope to phone 3200GT tomorrow and assumming he is available to talk, then I can catch up about this idea. A worst case scenario would be to discharge the pipe through the engine bay and onto the ground, its oil vapour so in theory it would do that, but that is certainly not an option if anything else can be done.

How would you empty the dump tank?

Hi,I am more of a west indian cousin!
from the info I got from Warren you would only have to empty the tank every two months or so,specialy if fitting two catch tanks,the location I chose makes it easy to unbolt from the fixing brackets and would then be easy to drain.I found this nitril tubing allowing to do a clean set up:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251163773050?var=5501858...

Seb

[3200gt]

Sorry guys, bit of anti virus trouble to sort before I could get on t'internet tonight.
But I'm here now.
Mav, no problem call me tomorrow.
Firstly, the oil vapour is pushed up through the PCV due to crankcase pressure. Hence the name Positive Crankcase Ventilation, The other ends of the pipe are open to the atmosphere via the air inlet. That's why a dump tank is easy, you don't have to worry about maintaining or limiting pressure balances.
You guys are over complicating the issue. All I did, and it worked 100%, is to divert the existing pipes into a dump tank remembering to seal off the original connections around the thottle body area. For a dump tank I used a radio control model aircraft fuel tank. They are made from opaque fuel and heat resistant plastic of some sort and have three inlets in the cap. Normally these would be used for fuel to the engine, fuel filler, and a breather. The inlet that is the fuel to the engine, on the inside of the tank has a pipe with a weighted pick up so that what ever the tank angle the fuel pick up is at the bottom. This is useful in our application as if you use this as the vapour inlet pipe and the tank has a little oil in it the vapour has to bubble through the oil and so the oil vapour condenses as it passes through and pretty much clean air is then vented out through the tank breather pipe.
Additionally it is useful that they are opaque as you can see if it needs emptying without having to fiddle about.
I located mine via cable ties to the inside wing so it was tucked nicely out the way.

This is the sort of tank I used, http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Model+Aircraft...

[MaverickV12]

SS972 said:

Hi,
been thinking about fitting separators to my 9 and found those:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Universal-Aluminium-silv...

as ideal as could be nicely located,one per bank on the chassis rail below the brake master cylinder.Had a long discussion with 3200GT about it,he is very helpfull.

Was giving this some consideration last night and looked on eBay etc. I didn't know but there is all manner of these oil catch tanks, but the above ones - these seemed nice and cost effective, what I am concerned about is will they fit and whilst eBay stuff can be returned, I've found their returns policy less than robust. Being a bit of a snob, I also ordered some steel braided fuel tube and some steel zip ties, this is not because of any special Aston reason, its because it would look nice

Thinking of where they would go and then I read through 3200GT stuff again, and he put his inside the front wings (I am correct about that - yes?) Again, I don't want to reinvent the wheel, I'll have a look on Monday and see where the tanks can go. I'd love them next to the engine - on show, but I have a feeling that there is no room and hence 3200GT put them in the wings.

I'll look Monday, but mean while I'd like to hear what others think?

[3200gt]

I sold mine a couple of years ago, so working from memory. It is normally the nearside PCV which goes and on mine, the oil was only up through the steel pipe which runs along the bottom off the cylinder head on the outside and joins onto the air intake tube. I have never heard of the off side one causing a problem. Therefore it is an east job just to redirect the offending pipe into a catch tank. I remember there was a nice little nook just in front of the front strut mount which was convenient.
When I did mine I was going for function over form and it worked just fine. Had I been considering keeping the car for a long time I would have done something with a bit more asthetic value.

Those tanks look nice, however I would think that something with an inspection tube or see through element would be a big bonus. Why get the tools out if you can check at a glance?

[MaverickV12]

3200GT has pointed out something that I may have overlooked to informed you PH'ers about. He said that one side of the engine (oiling up) was the problem and not the other. For me this is also correct. Both sides went wrong, if you flip a few pages / postings you will see a direct photo of the exposed intakes into the engine, you will see they are both oily inside. However, the passenger (UK) side is worse than the drivers side. Quite a lot worse. So I'm going to sort out both sides of the intakes / oil issues, for me they both need it. But the passenger side needs it more than the drivers side.

Turning to where I can put the tank, I took some photos of the engine bay, whilst you guys have plenty of views of the engine (because you got the engine), I took the photos because the big air intakes are removed.



Above is the passenger side by the headlight, again not much room there.



This was one of the hopeful possibles, this space is obvioulsy the drivers (UK) side by the driver, but when I places the Air Manifold back in place, it quickly reminded me there was no room there.



Passenger side, by the passenger, again a little room, but right by the fuse box. Again place the manifold back in place and access becomes very limited.



This also shows some space, but again with the manifolds in place, its just not possible.

Ahh Haa .... says I ...... I know where there is piles of space ......



Having taken off the engine cover, there is a stack of space between the radiator and the grill. But no ...... anything would show A LOT through the grill, also its hard to get a fixing anywhere and whilst one, "could", go in there, I don't think it would look very professional at all.

So, 3200GT, it looks like its in the wheel arch spaces then, which was where you had yours a while ago.

This is why I think these forums are important, its eliviates people having to reinvent the wheel .....

[SS972]

my idea was to fit L shaped brackets using the bolt that you can see on the chassis rail under the brake master cylinder (photo 2), the same bolt is present on the opposite side, and have the separator bolted to this bracket making it easy to undo to drain.

[MaverickV12]

SS972 said:

my idea was to fit L shaped brackets using the bolt that you can see on the chassis rail under the brake master cylinder (photo 2), the same bolt is present on the opposite side, and have the separator bolted to this bracket making it easy to undo to drain.

I think I can see your theory, is it the same bolt that the bottom of the fuse board is held in with. From the photos without the Manifolds in, then there is plenty of space, with them back in, its tight. But I'm looking at the engine again tomorrow and so will look at the issue again.

I don't just want to put a few bits-and-bobs in the engine and make it work, if I'm going to do it, I'd like it to look as professional as possible.

SS972, May I ask why you are doing the same? Do you have the oily airfilters or for another reason?

[drofnavi]

Have you thought about or investigated in the wheel arch behind the plastic wheel arch liner. I would have thought there is lots of room in there. Would one good sized catch tank not service both cylinder banks. If it could go in there, fit a drain to the bottom of the catch tank and pipe it to the bottom of the wheel arch area and fit one of those Fumoto valves. I have one of the sump drain of my 300C, no tools required to occasionally empty the oil out of it. I think there will only be a small amount of oil collected every couple of thousand miles.

[SS972]

MaverickV12 said:

I think I can see your theory, is it the same bolt that the bottom of the fuse board is held in with. From the photos without the Manifolds in, then there is plenty of space, with them back in, its tight. But I'm looking at the engine again tomorrow and so will look at the issue again.

I don't just want to put a few bits-and-bobs in the engine and make it work, if I'm going to do it, I'd like it to look as professional as possible.

SS972, May I ask why you are doing the same? Do you have the oily airfilters or for another reason?

So far the oil filters on my early (04) car are perfect but I was thinking about it as a preventive measure.Black or braided tubing and neat alloy catch tanks would not look bad imho.Car is 2700 miles.

[MaverickV12]

Whilst the car is in heated garage, and waiting for Lashes, Rockers, Braided fuel lines and other bits and bob, I thought I'd change the air filters, bearing in mind that they are some 3 months old now. I got this ........



Obvioulsy that is old - v - new ....

Lashes and Rockers arrived now, so will look at putting it all back together now.

[MaverickV12]

Opps forgot to include this photo, out of interest, inside it looks like this .....



That would make sense if the oil is running down the inside of the air intake.

[drofnavi]

Are both filters like that or only the near (passenger)side.
Are there any oiled K&N type replacement filters available. It wouldn't be a solution in your situation, but might work on a car with a little less blow by.

[MaverickV12]

Oiled up both sides, quite equal actually. Did think about the K&N's, but I would rather keep changing them, than wonder when the K&N would need cleaning. Because I listen to the engine and if it so much as coughs, I know it, I know when they are in need of replacing, also once I let them go for about 6 month and found that the engine was, "hunting", as the ECU would rev the engine when it felt it was about to stall. I was slow on the uptake then. Hopefully with the venting of the oil recirculation, it should solve the problem anyway.