DB9 engine ticking noise - help please
Discussion
Advice 
from the reputable indi was in fact taken 
and acted upon, 
indeed the reputable indi, solved the problem ...... 
The answer is something like......
In very short summary, the tick was a mixture of small end bearing wear and liners going oval (piston slap). The small end bearing wear causing piston slap is extremely common risk for early vin## because on later Vin## the bearing was superseded with a design revision which eliminated the problem. The liners going oval was a problem specific to my block. My car is an extremely early vin## which had probably been used as a factory engineering car (harsh early life) and had a Cosworth built engine not Cologne factory.
I had to have new block which was built with new internals - problem solved and because latest level design parts, the problem wont come back!
....and she's wickedly good .....
Just did this ......
French Alps run ...... snow tyres were perfect ...... engine ran like a dream ..... as I expected it to
So, from one, "Mav", to another, "Mav", ... whilst I'm game for a good pi**ing contest ..... the actual answer is above ......
from the reputable indi was in fact taken and acted upon, indeed the reputable indi, solved the problem ...... The answer is something like......
In very short summary, the tick was a mixture of small end bearing wear and liners going oval (piston slap). The small end bearing wear causing piston slap is extremely common risk for early vin## because on later Vin## the bearing was superseded with a design revision which eliminated the problem. The liners going oval was a problem specific to my block. My car is an extremely early vin## which had probably been used as a factory engineering car (harsh early life) and had a Cosworth built engine not Cologne factory.
I had to have new block which was built with new internals - problem solved and because latest level design parts, the problem wont come back!
....and she's wickedly good .....
Just did this ......
French Alps run ...... snow tyres were perfect ...... engine ran like a dream ..... as I expected it to
So, from one, "Mav", to another, "Mav", ... whilst I'm game for a good pi**ing contest ..... the actual answer is above ......
Thank you for the explanation Maverick.
Very good to hear that the ticking noise problem has now been resolved, and that you are enjoying your car again.
I like many on here, very much admired the work that you undertook. We were actually in awe of your determination, because whereas I have recently rebuilt a classic car engine, just looking under the bonnet of a modern AM completely baffles me. All those mysterious electronics.
You might perhaps admit though, that posting a photo of your engine in so many pieces and then asking what to do next, possibly had a slightly humorous connotation for admiring onlookers.
I can remember you telling us, you had just finished a rebuild and immediately set off to Scandinavia. Respect - I would only be brave enough to try a few short trips, fearing the worst.
Well done.
MaverickV12 said:
Advice from the reputable indi was in fact taken and acted upon, indeed the reputable indi, solved the problem ......
So, from one, "Mav", to another, "Mav", ... whilst I'm game for a good pi**ing contest ..... the actual answer is above ......
Understood mate. I probably should have made myself more clear. My comment was more directed towards those who variously decried your efforts to fix an issue that affects a lot of our cars. Can you post any idea of various costs please? from the reputable indi was in fact taken and acted upon, indeed the reputable indi, solved the problem ...... So, from one, "Mav", to another, "Mav", ... whilst I'm game for a good pi**ing contest ..... the actual answer is above ......
Thanks,
Mav
Cerberaherts said:
Aston haven't sold ex-engineering cars since the V500. They aren't allowed to. Have to say that's very unusual. Never heard of bore ovality in that engine...
They dont sell engineering cars? Check out the wave of KX cars out there which if you believe they were all never raced, rally'd or used for anything other than static photo shoots, maybe fooling themselves.....Oval liners sure enough.
Put the piston in at correct orientation and twisting past 10 o-clock and 2 o-clock and piston would totally lock up in bore. Then move piston downbore and it would go loose / tight. Based on fact i was already grade 2 piston and the amount of work necessary to correct would take well past grade 3, meant new block.
Now I may be barking right up the wrong tree, I'd like to think that Mike at Bamford Rose agreed with what I am writing......
Thanks Mav, for your kind words, personally I don't think people should be afraid to try different stuff.....
Cost wise ..... its no big secret, phone BR up, talk to Mike and I'm sure he'll put you right. I do know it was waaaaay cheaper than having Aston replace my engine for me.
Sump said:
Mav I have a question for you. Is the special tool needed to disconnect the fuel line when removing the manifold? According to the manual a tool is required? Thanks.
Sorry I don't know ...... 
I didn't take the engine out.....
A reputable Indi did and they put it back in for me .....
That reputable Indi, after I had visited a few times during the work, then spent the best part of 2 hours, explaining the situation, talking me through the engine, what they did, what noises to expect (this normal whining noises etc)
We warmed the engine through a full cycle, we listened to other V12's to compare. What I am trying to say is, rather than throwing me my keys and saying, "se ya", the Reputable Indi had time for me, a rare thing nowadays. It was me that left the garage, having exhausted all avenues of questions, not him throwing me out.....
Apparently these are a major, "contributor", ......
Something to do with the inside of them, on the left the old one is smooth, on the new one there is a huge, "oil allowing groove", .....
I'm all for changing the oil, trying different tyres, even a certain amount of DIY, but might I suggest the, "Reputable Indi", for resolving the, "Tick", issue .....
ks MaverickV12 said:
They dont sell engineering cars? Check out the wave of KX cars out there which if you believe they were all never raced, rally'd or used for anything other than static photo shoots, maybe fooling themselves.....
Enjoying the info and your tale and so glad you got it sorted. However that bit above seems off kilter for you and the general tone? Many Astons are KX registered as that is simply the local area prefix - we all know about dealer quotas and 'demo' incentives to shift 'second hand' stock after all. So please don't insinuate that pre reg KX cars are hammered mules. My Rapide has featured nowhere in any publication (ever seen a blue one in the press/YouTube/James Bond...) let alone been f 'rallied'! If you know otherwise about KX please tell but otherwise this statement serves only a very negative and erroneous purpose as I see it.I also have a 4.7 KX Vantage. Ex AM owned. Apart from TPS (normal!) and sticky passengers mirror (normal!) its been faultless.
It never bothered me that it was a early car and in some ways it probably has that little more care during the build. Ive never seen mine in press pics or videos and being a rare Fire Red colour the only pics of a Fire Red are is a LHD one when the 4.7's were launched.
So i wouldnt tar all those cars with the same "its been ragged by Jeremy Clarkson and other motoring hacks so they cant be worth as much" brush.
It never bothered me that it was a early car and in some ways it probably has that little more care during the build. Ive never seen mine in press pics or videos and being a rare Fire Red colour the only pics of a Fire Red are is a LHD one when the 4.7's were launched.
So i wouldnt tar all those cars with the same "its been ragged by Jeremy Clarkson and other motoring hacks so they cant be worth as much" brush.
Edited by petop on Tuesday 26th January 06:56
As I said. Engineering cars aren't sold by AM and aren't allowed to be. Ex-press and demo, yes. I worked for AM in proto for long enough to know this. Ex engineering cars are drained of their fluids then crushed, cars fitted with parts that haven't been type-approved during sign off can't be sold, and haven't been for many years. The crash-test cars have to be kept in storage for 8 years...
DB9VolanteDriver said:
Don't understand your caption on the first photo, if the photo is supposed to indicate cylinder ovalness. Looks like a bunch of high spots around the periphery, no?
So what happens when a cylinder has a'bunch of high spots'? As a result the piston rings will not be in contact with the low spots increasing wear, not least from the blow-by condition. Add that condition to the natural wear of any liner on the thrust side and a succinct way to describe the outcome of all those troubles is to say the liner is 'oval', meaning is not perfectly cylindrical - no??Either way you cut it, it doesn't take a genius to look at the liners and finger-in-the-air say they are going to be out of specification just because the honing is destroyed, because on measuring liner with bore gauge and knowing the very small tolerances that spread min / max grades of factory pistons that are available, means any liner with a slight wear / imperfection that needs extreme re-honing can not be rebuilt within specification. So just by experienced eye without any measuring equipment the pictures of the liners shows they are screwed.
Apart from the extremely small part of liner above piston at TDC, what part of the liner is 'on the periphery'? i don't understand that comment??
Cerberaherts said:
As I said. Engineering cars aren't sold by AM and aren't allowed to be. Ex-press and demo, yes. I worked for AM in proto for long enough to know this. Ex engineering cars are drained of their fluids then crushed, cars fitted with parts that haven't been type-approved during sign off can't be sold, and haven't been for many years. The crash-test cars have to be kept in storage for 8 years...
I kicked around Prototype for nearly 10 years, don't recall you?Here is pic of me doing a very important test outside swanky hotel in my own time at the weekend, if i recall the test was cold start and warm up with hood down. Purpose of the test was to write in owners handbook how long it would take for a bald chaps head to go red without sun cream protection, super important stuff as any usage of an engineering car was at the weekends.
This particular car was memorable because it was a '59 plate DB9 which had electronic switchable suspension, go check out when electronic suspension came out on a DB9 (the trained eye will notice this DB9 has wrong grille / lower grille and headlamps to be MY that came out with ADS), you will find the answer doesn't quite fit with your comment about type approval?? No??? My usage of it, i can't say, sworn to secrecy, but i can say i never worked for Press or Demo departments.
Reason this waffle is important is because the car is now owned by a fellow PH member, he bought the car from dealer who sourced the car direct from factory. In the spec sheet run-down it explicitly stated Electronic switchable suspension - yes, on a 59 plate DB9!!! The owner knew what he was buying, it wasn't concealed that it was used for other activities than press or demo - this added pedigree to the car for the owner, the car came professionally prepared and had warranty - so no problems all round.
The car has subsequently been monstor'd, the car is called 'Mathis', the car is loved, cherished and in fine fettle.
This is not the only example i have come across of similar situations, but is good example to use here because the current owner and buyer of car from dealer is a PH'er. I think the comment Mav makes about the potential history of ex factory cars is a valid one, and I can understand it might not make the best reading to a few on here which manifests in denial. The common one on later cars is brake wear, I have had to replace more than one set of ££ceramic££ discs on a car where the mileage does not correlate with the brake wear being looked at. Whether those cars were ex-press, demo or engineering the end result is still the same - there is the potential for consumable spend due to unknown prior usage which may or may not be more arduous than road miles in the hands of miss daisy from cars that were bought virgin off the forecourt!!
Mike, I worked at Newport pagnell, under Derrick stone, and was there a fair few years! So I guess you know Stuart digger, mick brown, Steve armistead etc? I think you did a fair bit of software stuff for them? Though my memory has faded a bit nowadays! 
Edited by Cerberaherts on Tuesday 26th January 12:09
Edited by Cerberaherts on Tuesday 26th January 12:11
Cerberaherts said:
I think you did a fair bit of software stuff for them?
BamfordMike said:
Here is pic of me doing a very important test outside swanky hotel in my own time at the weekend, if I recall the test was cold start and warm up with hood down. Purpose of the test was to write in owners handbook how long it would take for a bald chaps head to go red without sun cream protection, super important stuff as any usage of an engineering car was at the weekends.
Being follicly challenged I see this work as vital 
BamfordMike said:
Cerberaherts said:
I worked for AM in proto for long enough to know this. Ex engineering cars..... that haven't been type-approved during sign off can't be sold, and haven't been for many years.
Cerberaherts said:
Only did six months at Gaydon them into works service for several years....
Fair enough chap. Perhaps on reflection that just wasn't long enough to see how some new era cars were offered for re sale, evidenced by the '59 plate DB9 with ADS prepped and sold to dealer i show. Its just that your points came across so strongly from what appeared to be a very well informed background and you were trying to inform the forum on a matter which in reality you weren't 100% on.Link your new found knowledge back to the OP's engine -
His Vin## was 00125 - I had use of an early DB9 engineering car with a vin## well after that one!!!
His block was Cosworth not AMEP, his engine wear (apart from small end bearing failure which is very common issue for early V12's) in the liners is by no means a commonly seen issue. So i can only surmise (i might be right or i might be wrong) the wear state was actually instigated from early life which then took time and usage to develop into a fault needing a fix in later life. Meaning the engine wear / fault was inherent, a ticking timebomb if you like, much like cars needing brakes earlier than mileage would suggest is normal.
I think its a fair point to question would the engine wear seen here a)happen on an AMEP built engine not subject to any unknown past life, and b)would it have happened on a virgin car fresh from production to sales? - my personal opinion is NO for both answers hence the comment made previously about caution over 'SOME' KX cars / ex factory cars in general.
I guess nobody could foresee the issue the engine was going to have at the point the car was passed to sales, and is purely bad luck to have happened in the owners hands. I still have the block for evidence that it's a Cosworth not AMEP engine if you want to pop over and inspect it yourself? I do know Cosworth V12 engines were made for production, but that was in DB7 and Vanquish spec - different EMS with different sensor machining in the block than DB9.
However, it's quite possible there were early DB9's that did have Cosworth not AMEP built engines and this was normal until mass production started, the engineering DB9 i mentioned being a later vin## than this car was an AMEP engine from recollection, so the OP's car here is another example for you that not all cars from factory into marketplace were simply press or demo, in fact, on strip of Vin#125 quite a lot of old instrumentation and wiring was hidden underneath the carpets - which looked so integral to main harness it was left in place and is still on car now! i have those pictures too but that would not be so nice to show them.
BamfordMike said:
DB9VolanteDriver said:
Don't understand your caption on the first photo, if the photo is supposed to indicate cylinder ovalness. Looks like a bunch of high spots around the periphery, no?
So what happens when a cylinder has a'bunch of high spots'? As a result the piston rings will not be in contact with the low spots increasing wear, not least from the blow-by condition. Add that condition to the natural wear of any liner on the thrust side and a succinct way to describe the outcome of all those troubles is to say the liner is 'oval', meaning is not perfectly cylindrical - no??Either way you cut it, it doesn't take a genius to look at the liners and finger-in-the-air say they are going to be out of specification just because the honing is destroyed, because on measuring liner with bore gauge and knowing the very small tolerances that spread min / max grades of factory pistons that are available, means any liner with a slight wear / imperfection that needs extreme re-honing can not be rebuilt within specification. So just by experienced eye without any measuring equipment the pictures of the liners shows they are screwed.
Apart from the extremely small part of liner above piston at TDC, what part of the liner is 'on the periphery'? i don't understand that comment??
As far as periphery, all I meant was that the contact arcs seem to go all around the liner, pretty uniformly. I'm interested in the cause of such a liner shape and how it could be formed in the first place; poor initial machining? Any way, all looks very odd to me.
Gassing Station | Aston Martin | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff