DB9 engine ticking noise - help please
Discussion
DB9VolanteDriver said:
When the term 'oval' is used to describe the liner deformity, I think of an oval, where the rings would contact in two broad arcs, 180 degrees apart. The photo, however, shows very narrow contact around the cylinder in perhaps a dozen places? Looks like a liner that has a sine wave type of deformity. So, to me, oval does not describe the liner shape, even if that term is used more generically.
As far as periphery, all I meant was that the contact arcs seem to go all around the liner, pretty uniformly. I'm interested in the cause of such a liner shape and how it could be formed in the first place; poor initial machining? Any way, all looks very odd to me.
AFAIK / and I am used to, in the trade piston going loose / tight in bore around the clock face does indeed just go by the generically vague term of 'oval', anything deeper would just be confusing to the layman. As far as periphery, all I meant was that the contact arcs seem to go all around the liner, pretty uniformly. I'm interested in the cause of such a liner shape and how it could be formed in the first place; poor initial machining? Any way, all looks very odd to me.
As to the origins of the wear, totally a one off - never seen anything like this before. Had i been asked to take a wild guess i would have said in list of possible answers that perhaps the engine had been used for thermal shock testing or any extreme of temperature testing - based off my last post concerning a little of the cars past, the root cause of this cars problems (for me anyway) has to be in this cars own history, and because we don't know what that was exactly, we can only guess which is pointless - Conclusion regardless of cause is liners wont re hone to specification within tolerance when 'ovality' removed = scrap liners.
BamfordMike said:
I kicked around Prototype for nearly 10 years, don't recall you?
Here is pic of me doing a very important test outside swanky hotel in my own time at the weekend, if i recall the test was cold start and warm up with hood down. Purpose of the test was to write in owners handbook how long it would take for a bald chaps head to go red without sun cream protection, super important stuff as any usage of an engineering car was at the weekends.
This particular car was memorable because it was a '59 plate DB9 which had electronic switchable suspension, go check out when electronic suspension came out on a DB9 (the trained eye will notice this DB9 has wrong grille / lower grille and headlamps to be MY that came out with ADS), you will find the answer doesn't quite fit with your comment about type approval?? No??? My usage of it, i can't say, sworn to secrecy, but i can say i never worked for Press or Demo departments.
Reason this waffle is important is because the car is now owned by a fellow PH member, he bought the car from dealer who sourced the car direct from factory. In the spec sheet run-down it explicitly stated Electronic switchable suspension - yes, on a 59 plate DB9!!! The owner knew what he was buying, it wasn't concealed that it was used for other activities than press or demo - this added pedigree to the car for the owner, the car came professionally prepared and had warranty - so no problems all round.
The car has subsequently been monstor'd, the car is called 'Mathis', the car is loved, cherished and in fine fettle.
This is not the only example i have come across of similar situations, but is good example to use here because the current owner and buyer of car from dealer is a PH'er. I think the comment Mav makes about the potential history of ex factory cars is a valid one, and I can understand it might not make the best reading to a few on here which manifests in denial. The common one on later cars is brake wear, I have had to replace more than one set of ££ceramic££ discs on a car where the mileage does not correlate with the brake wear being looked at. Whether those cars were ex-press, demo or engineering the end result is still the same - there is the potential for consumable spend due to unknown prior usage which may or may not be more arduous than road miles in the hands of miss daisy from cars that were bought virgin off the forecourt!!
Blimey Mike have you never had hair?Here is pic of me doing a very important test outside swanky hotel in my own time at the weekend, if i recall the test was cold start and warm up with hood down. Purpose of the test was to write in owners handbook how long it would take for a bald chaps head to go red without sun cream protection, super important stuff as any usage of an engineering car was at the weekends.
This particular car was memorable because it was a '59 plate DB9 which had electronic switchable suspension, go check out when electronic suspension came out on a DB9 (the trained eye will notice this DB9 has wrong grille / lower grille and headlamps to be MY that came out with ADS), you will find the answer doesn't quite fit with your comment about type approval?? No??? My usage of it, i can't say, sworn to secrecy, but i can say i never worked for Press or Demo departments.
Reason this waffle is important is because the car is now owned by a fellow PH member, he bought the car from dealer who sourced the car direct from factory. In the spec sheet run-down it explicitly stated Electronic switchable suspension - yes, on a 59 plate DB9!!! The owner knew what he was buying, it wasn't concealed that it was used for other activities than press or demo - this added pedigree to the car for the owner, the car came professionally prepared and had warranty - so no problems all round.
The car has subsequently been monstor'd, the car is called 'Mathis', the car is loved, cherished and in fine fettle.
This is not the only example i have come across of similar situations, but is good example to use here because the current owner and buyer of car from dealer is a PH'er. I think the comment Mav makes about the potential history of ex factory cars is a valid one, and I can understand it might not make the best reading to a few on here which manifests in denial. The common one on later cars is brake wear, I have had to replace more than one set of ££ceramic££ discs on a car where the mileage does not correlate with the brake wear being looked at. Whether those cars were ex-press, demo or engineering the end result is still the same - there is the potential for consumable spend due to unknown prior usage which may or may not be more arduous than road miles in the hands of miss daisy from cars that were bought virgin off the forecourt!!
BamfordMike said:
Fair enough chap. Perhaps on reflection that just wasn't long enough to see how some new era cars were offered for re sale, evidenced by the '59 plate DB9 with ADS prepped and sold to dealer i show. Its just that your points came across so strongly from what appeared to be a very well informed background and you were trying to inform the forum on a matter which in reality you weren't 100% on.
Link your new found knowledge back to the OP's engine -
His Vin## was 00125 - I had use of an early DB9 engineering car with a vin## well after that one!!!
His block was Cosworth not AMEP, his engine wear (apart from small end bearing failure which is very common issue for early V12's) in the liners is by no means a commonly seen issue. So i can only surmise (i might be right or i might be wrong) the wear state was actually instigated from early life which then took time and usage to develop into a fault needing a fix in later life. Meaning the engine wear / fault was inherent, a ticking timebomb if you like, much like cars needing brakes earlier than mileage would suggest is normal.
I think its a fair point to question would the engine wear seen here a)happen on an AMEP built engine not subject to any unknown past life, and b)would it have happened on a virgin car fresh from production to sales? - my personal opinion is NO for both answers hence the comment made previously about caution over 'SOME' KX cars / ex factory cars in general.
I guess nobody could foresee the issue the engine was going to have at the point the car was passed to sales, and is purely bad luck to have happened in the owners hands. I still have the block for evidence that it's a Cosworth not AMEP engine if you want to pop over and inspect it yourself? I do know Cosworth V12 engines were made for production, but that was in DB7 and Vanquish spec - different EMS with different sensor machining in the block than DB9.
However, it's quite possible there were early DB9's that did have Cosworth not AMEP built engines and this was normal until mass production started, the engineering DB9 i mentioned being a later vin## than this car was an AMEP engine from recollection, so the OP's car here is another example for you that not all cars from factory into marketplace were simply press or demo, in fact, on strip of Vin#125 quite a lot of old instrumentation and wiring was hidden underneath the carpets - which looked so integral to main harness it was left in place and is still on car now! i have those pictures too but that would not be so nice to show them.
I certainly wasn't doubting your diagnosis, hope you didn't take my post the wrong way, just commenting that it isn't something I'd seen before. I know a few early bucks were running PP level vanquish base engines, so perhaps one if those slipped the net? We had issues with the cos engines in the early days including casting sand and cams wearing early, but even the APG tested hot climate cars were very low on wear after 3 months of abuse!Link your new found knowledge back to the OP's engine -
His Vin## was 00125 - I had use of an early DB9 engineering car with a vin## well after that one!!!
His block was Cosworth not AMEP, his engine wear (apart from small end bearing failure which is very common issue for early V12's) in the liners is by no means a commonly seen issue. So i can only surmise (i might be right or i might be wrong) the wear state was actually instigated from early life which then took time and usage to develop into a fault needing a fix in later life. Meaning the engine wear / fault was inherent, a ticking timebomb if you like, much like cars needing brakes earlier than mileage would suggest is normal.
I think its a fair point to question would the engine wear seen here a)happen on an AMEP built engine not subject to any unknown past life, and b)would it have happened on a virgin car fresh from production to sales? - my personal opinion is NO for both answers hence the comment made previously about caution over 'SOME' KX cars / ex factory cars in general.
I guess nobody could foresee the issue the engine was going to have at the point the car was passed to sales, and is purely bad luck to have happened in the owners hands. I still have the block for evidence that it's a Cosworth not AMEP engine if you want to pop over and inspect it yourself? I do know Cosworth V12 engines were made for production, but that was in DB7 and Vanquish spec - different EMS with different sensor machining in the block than DB9.
However, it's quite possible there were early DB9's that did have Cosworth not AMEP built engines and this was normal until mass production started, the engineering DB9 i mentioned being a later vin## than this car was an AMEP engine from recollection, so the OP's car here is another example for you that not all cars from factory into marketplace were simply press or demo, in fact, on strip of Vin#125 quite a lot of old instrumentation and wiring was hidden underneath the carpets - which looked so integral to main harness it was left in place and is still on car now! i have those pictures too but that would not be so nice to show them.
Cerberaherts said:
As I said. Engineering cars aren't sold by AM and aren't allowed to be. Ex-press and demo, yes. I worked for AM in proto for long enough to know this. Ex engineering cars are drained of their fluids then crushed, cars fitted with parts that haven't been type-approved during sign off can't be sold, and haven't been for many years. The crash-test cars have to be kept in storage for 8 years...
There is a secret "grave yard" at Gaydon for the later
Ken Figenus said:
Enjoying the info and your tale and so glad you got it sorted. However that bit above seems off kilter for you and the general tone? Many Astons are KX registered as that is simply the local area prefix - we all know about dealer quotas and 'demo' incentives to shift 'second hand' stock after all. So please don't insinuate that pre reg KX cars are hammered mules. My Rapide has featured nowhere in any publication (ever seen a blue one in the press/YouTube/James Bond...) let alone been f 'rallied'! If you know otherwise about KX please tell but otherwise this statement serves only a very negative and erroneous purpose as I see it.
Yep KX is just the local post area and cover a fair old area!https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...
BUT all the cars not on private plates registered by the factory seem to go on to KX's, whether they are mules, press cars or management cars. There is the uncertainty.
mikey k said:
Yep KX is just the local post area and cover a fair old area!
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...
BUT all the cars not on private plates registered by the factory seem to go on to KX's, whether they are mules, press cars or management cars. There is the uncertainty.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...
BUT all the cars not on private plates registered by the factory seem to go on to KX's, whether they are mules, press cars or management cars. There is the uncertainty.
The DB11 test 'mules' are running on KU and KY plates, so perhaps the next batch of press cars will no longer be KX.
(Sorry, will get back to train spotting now.)
Jon39 said:
mikey k said:
Yep KX is just the local post area and cover a fair old area!
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...
BUT all the cars not on private plates registered by the factory seem to go on to KX's, whether they are mules, press cars or management cars. There is the uncertainty.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...
BUT all the cars not on private plates registered by the factory seem to go on to KX's, whether they are mules, press cars or management cars. There is the uncertainty.
The DB11 test 'mules' are running on KU and KY plates, so perhaps the next batch of press cars will no longer be KX.
(Sorry, will get back to train spotting now.)
possiblyIf you look at the link they are on the same area
mikey k said:
Yep KX is just the local post area and cover a fair old area!
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...
BUT all the cars not on private plates registered by the factory seem to go on to KX's, whether they are mules, press cars or management cars. There is the uncertainty.
YouTube was part of my due diligence as every manufacturer has press cars (used to get one a week https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...
BUT all the cars not on private plates registered by the factory seem to go on to KX's, whether they are mules, press cars or management cars. There is the uncertainty.
) but my thoughts are that its a very small percentage of the pre reg KX cars that may have a nice 'dealer deposit contribution'?Ken Figenus said:
mikey k said:
Yep KX is just the local post area and cover a fair old area!
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...
BUT all the cars not on private plates registered by the factory seem to go on to KX's, whether they are mules, press cars or management cars. There is the uncertainty.
YouTube was part of my due diligence as every manufacturer has press cars (used to get one a week https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...
BUT all the cars not on private plates registered by the factory seem to go on to KX's, whether they are mules, press cars or management cars. There is the uncertainty.
) but my thoughts are that its a very small percentage of the pre reg KX cars that may have a nice 'dealer deposit contribution'?A KX or other factory car driven by the Stig or other controlled journo usage will be factory production cars meticulously prepared and as we know, the cars are generally strong enough to take such usage in their stride by drivers who are pros and most of time they care for the car, so i dont really see any issue with that - the car is just less miss daisy than most others in the marketplace.
However, if you find no pictures, videos or any snippets of magazine reviews about a particular KX car, that tells me the prior usage was unlikely meticulously prepared press cars under controlled press usage, and more likely the prior usage was 'internal factory'. As evidenced by the '59 plate example i showed earlier and the OP's DB9 Vin#125, the internal factory usage could range from the directors wife's car to engineering development. So its a bit flip a coin as to the prior history of the car you could get, which is why i said your YouTube approach was a little flawed because if you find no press evidence of prior life, its probable you are in the 'internal' camp.
Its great that there are many KX cars running problem free and owners are happy, we already concluded the only concern with even a harshly used KX car (earlier ones were VX) might be is to have the potential to need consumable repairs at earlier times than is normally seen in miss daisy cars. That is unless you are unlucky like the OP to have a fundamental component issue. Similarly, I have seen KX cars run totally trouble free, i have seen zero issues and on the surface the car appears fab, but, and here is another example of a PH members V12V KX car (who will remain nameless). The car was at dealer for service and helpful dealer did an EMS software upgrade. Went to start car and nothing - dead - would not run. They had Inadvertently wiped what must have been special EMS needed to run a car with probably different electronic architecture to production. Clearly the EMS software the car needed wasn't on dealer diagnostic tool because it was not a released level, which meant special help from high above which luckily came - but imagine a fault like this whilst car was in Italy on a driving holiday, car had a breakdown and helpful dealer the car was towed to did the update?
You never really know when and how and to what extent a KX or any other 'internal' car could bite, and as you can see by the examples here (i could go on, and on and play KX car top trumps) seeing the car on Youtube would actually make me less concerned!
Ken Figenus said:
Great info Mike! Is my theory that many are KX (factory pre reg) in order to help accounting/sales numbers/dealer deal striking accurate? I do remember a significant inducement to try and get me in a brand spanker once!
I'm not sure on the pre reg front?A good bit of additional detective work is to look at the service book and dates on V5.
Normal tell-tale signs of KX 'internal' / non press or demo cars have'press garage' stamps for early years, which although carry the wing logo, its clear to see the stamp is not from a dealer. There are some 'internal' cars i have seen that have no press garage stamps, but first stamp in the book (which is probably a replacement book when dealer took car on) is just way to high mileage normally seen in first / early years, the V5 can help here to determine date car was registered new. It could be the case that the press garage looked after just static demo 'press' cars, but generally cars were shared around, so its a bit like a hire car - you never know who has really used it and for what purpose.
A pre reg or static / sales demo car, the service book shows, say 200 miles or thereabouts at PDI when dealer got the car and this stamp stacks up with dates on V5 car declared first new, or if PDI stamp missing, normally low (<5k) mileage at first service when car is only 1 year from date first declared new.
Ken Figenus said:
Excellent points for any homework before buying used with any brand/marque really and not get too paranoid about it all either. Cheers.
Yeah, i think what we know carried across from other brands causes the slight confusion.Of course in UK there will be Ferrari, Porsche, BMW, Audi and come to think of it pretty much every brand dealer demo type cars in the marketplace, however, there will unlikely be any of those makers ex factory / engineering cars in UK. Probably in Italy there are a number of ex Ferrari factory cars?? together with ex dealer demo cars, but in Italy whilst there are likely to be ex dealer demo Astons, there will unlikely be ex Aston factory cars.
I think the UK is unique in that mixing with the pot of ex dealer demo cars is ex factory cars too, and as per the many examples that can evidence this, those cars are not always just 'press and demo'.
And yes, not get too paranoid because after all, its a preloved car purchase. If the body / paint / interior / mechanical / consumables / price are all good, that is what is being bought, the car in front of you at that time.
BamfordMike said:
I think the UK is unique in that mixing with the pot of ex dealer demo cars is ex factory cars too, and as per the many examples that can evidence this, those cars are not always just 'press and demo'.
And yes, not get too paranoid because after all, its a preloved car purchase. If the body / paint / interior / mechanical / consumables / price are all good, that is what is being bought, the car in front of you at that time.
And yes, not get too paranoid because after all, its a preloved car purchase. If the body / paint / interior / mechanical / consumables / price are all good, that is what is being bought, the car in front of you at that time.
A minor point on this subject is date of first registration. When you see the last day of a month, particularly quarters, it might signify a registration of a 'demo' car, to achieve a dealer sales incentive. Even though it is an expensive purchase, most customers who had waited for their ordered car to be built, would probably wait one more day to tax their car and thereby obtain a full month.
On the KX plate thing, I recently noticed that a rather nice green V8 Vantage Volante that I saw and photographed in the New Forest last July was KX11 plate. Looked it up on http://www.ukvehicle.com/ and it states "previously been associated with 1AML" That'll be a press car then I guess!
Anyone on here?
Edit: It's a nice car so I'll add a pic!
Anyone on here?
Edit: It's a nice car so I'll add a pic!
Edited by Noogly on Monday 8th February 12:25
mikey k said:
That is the infamous V8VS launch car
Variously thrashed by numerous people
Ascari. I don't think you can really "thrash" an Aston Martin, as they are over engineered to cope with said thrashing! The V8 is very closely related to its GT4 race car version.Variously thrashed by numerous people
Edited by roughrider on Monday 8th February 16:32
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