DB9 engine ticking noise - help please
Discussion
BamfordMike
372 posts
22 months
[report] [news] Tuesday 11th December 2012
yvr said:
Mike, don't know if you've been following this thread full of dire warnings (and threats!) for V12 owners: DB9 engine ticking... I've been hoping that you might chime in with an expert opinion based on your experience, having actually seen the insides of some of them.
Hi.
To correctly diagnose engine rattles over a forum is quite a tough one....
There are a few sources of common rattles on V12, most common are;
Prop rattle.
Heard at idle, not from cold start at fast idle but when oil warm and at normal idle speed. Is worse / best heard sitting in drivers seat opening door and listening from below sill. Press throttle and make engine speed rise above 1500rpm the rattle will go, allow engine to idle the noise will return. Is an engine related problem, noise is result of uneven combustion, typically a coil which has gone down or slight misfire for another reason is present. The uneven firing pulsations between the banks results in a rattle sound travelling down the torque tube and is amplified by it.
Throttle blade rattle.
Heard when accelerator pedal is pressed at idle and as speed rises to about 1300rpm a rattle, much like the sort of sound one would guess as being tappet / lash adjuster rattle occurs. Is a result of the throttle blade closing past electronic minimum blade angle (around 2 degrees), the sound occurs as blade rattles against the housing (where normally it should be held around 2 degrees away from housing). This is a serious problem because under long overrun conditions from high rpm the throttle will fully close (where normally it should be held slightly open) causing manifold absolute pressure to drop below a value that pulls oil across into breather circuit (<17KPa)
Tappet / Lash adjusters.
Rattle heard at idle and when blipping throttle / as engine speed rises. Caused because lash adjuster failing to hold oil / pressure required to take up clearances in valvetrain. Very common problem, lost track of the number of indi and franschised dealerships we have gone into to change the lash adjusters in situ.
Bottom end / bearings.
One engine we worked on that sounded 'very tickey', was oil temp sensitive (no noise cold but noise developed hot). We checked all the obvious other sources of rattles and decided to drop bottom end of the engine. There were no visible signs of wear on bearings when removed but the noise went away after bearing change and engine rebuild.....
Death rattle.
Normally a result of running low on oil, first to fail is big end bearing causing crank and rod contact - the rattle. As the bearing wears totally away there is enough rod / piston movement for the piston crown to clash cylinder head - the death...
There are a few good practices that can prevent certain failures.
At service, if the airfilters are dripping oil replace breather circuit valves.
At 7 year service, so manifolds off for spark plug change, replace breather circuit valves even if no oil pull over is present.
Consider lash adjuster renewal if mileage is above 60/70k at 7 year service too.
There are many V12 customer cars that come in for routine service each year, and as each year passes mileage is a little higher and there are no issues to report whatsoever - normal life goes on. I have read comments like 'problems' are wide-spread and 'it' will effect every engine / car around 50k miles and that 'issues' are 'ticking timebombs' (Intended) - I can not concur that.
However, there are a number of high mileage engines that we have seen which needed complete strip and repair, that when we closely examined each component for wear, the conclusion drawn is that if it wasn't for the original reason we stripped the engine, much of the rest of the engine is very close behind to showing a symptom of wear that would require full rebuild anyway. That figure is around 80-90k miles. I am not saying that this is the service limit of the engine. What I am saying is that whilst this engine would probably 'potter' around quite happy for a good few more miles without issue, one good 'spirited' drive might be its last before refresh / rebuild.
Advice;
Check oil every week.
Do more than minimum service schedule by preventing anything bad from happening by replacing the usual suspects when it is efficient to do so at certain service schedules.
If new to the car, have a pre purchase inspection.
372 posts
22 months
[report] [news] Tuesday 11th December 2012
yvr said:
Mike, don't know if you've been following this thread full of dire warnings (and threats!) for V12 owners: DB9 engine ticking... I've been hoping that you might chime in with an expert opinion based on your experience, having actually seen the insides of some of them.
Hi.
To correctly diagnose engine rattles over a forum is quite a tough one....
There are a few sources of common rattles on V12, most common are;
Prop rattle.
Heard at idle, not from cold start at fast idle but when oil warm and at normal idle speed. Is worse / best heard sitting in drivers seat opening door and listening from below sill. Press throttle and make engine speed rise above 1500rpm the rattle will go, allow engine to idle the noise will return. Is an engine related problem, noise is result of uneven combustion, typically a coil which has gone down or slight misfire for another reason is present. The uneven firing pulsations between the banks results in a rattle sound travelling down the torque tube and is amplified by it.
Throttle blade rattle.
Heard when accelerator pedal is pressed at idle and as speed rises to about 1300rpm a rattle, much like the sort of sound one would guess as being tappet / lash adjuster rattle occurs. Is a result of the throttle blade closing past electronic minimum blade angle (around 2 degrees), the sound occurs as blade rattles against the housing (where normally it should be held around 2 degrees away from housing). This is a serious problem because under long overrun conditions from high rpm the throttle will fully close (where normally it should be held slightly open) causing manifold absolute pressure to drop below a value that pulls oil across into breather circuit (<17KPa)
Tappet / Lash adjusters.
Rattle heard at idle and when blipping throttle / as engine speed rises. Caused because lash adjuster failing to hold oil / pressure required to take up clearances in valvetrain. Very common problem, lost track of the number of indi and franschised dealerships we have gone into to change the lash adjusters in situ.
Bottom end / bearings.
One engine we worked on that sounded 'very tickey', was oil temp sensitive (no noise cold but noise developed hot). We checked all the obvious other sources of rattles and decided to drop bottom end of the engine. There were no visible signs of wear on bearings when removed but the noise went away after bearing change and engine rebuild.....
Death rattle.
Normally a result of running low on oil, first to fail is big end bearing causing crank and rod contact - the rattle. As the bearing wears totally away there is enough rod / piston movement for the piston crown to clash cylinder head - the death...
There are a few good practices that can prevent certain failures.
At service, if the airfilters are dripping oil replace breather circuit valves.
At 7 year service, so manifolds off for spark plug change, replace breather circuit valves even if no oil pull over is present.
Consider lash adjuster renewal if mileage is above 60/70k at 7 year service too.
There are many V12 customer cars that come in for routine service each year, and as each year passes mileage is a little higher and there are no issues to report whatsoever - normal life goes on. I have read comments like 'problems' are wide-spread and 'it' will effect every engine / car around 50k miles and that 'issues' are 'ticking timebombs' (Intended) - I can not concur that.
However, there are a number of high mileage engines that we have seen which needed complete strip and repair, that when we closely examined each component for wear, the conclusion drawn is that if it wasn't for the original reason we stripped the engine, much of the rest of the engine is very close behind to showing a symptom of wear that would require full rebuild anyway. That figure is around 80-90k miles. I am not saying that this is the service limit of the engine. What I am saying is that whilst this engine would probably 'potter' around quite happy for a good few more miles without issue, one good 'spirited' drive might be its last before refresh / rebuild.
Advice;
Check oil every week.
Do more than minimum service schedule by preventing anything bad from happening by replacing the usual suspects when it is efficient to do so at certain service schedules.
If new to the car, have a pre purchase inspection.
mikey k said:
yeti said:
MaverickV12 said:
Is anyone from BR reading this thread ? Would love to hear from you 
Oh yes, they're reading it 
Call or email them
^^^ what he said ^^^ 
Not a bad day today, it was fine, I didn't swear at anyone, didn't rant at any one, didn't argue with anyone, but eventually I had to get out of bed .........
Began the changing of the Rockers and the Lashes today, dead easy ...
... believe that you'll believe anything I don't know how you professional mechanics do it every day, perhaps it easier for you, I guess what drives me on, aside from no car (but its snowing down here, and my car is actually in a centrally heated garage - so not all bad), is that I'd like to resolve the problem myself and my motto of, "how hard can it be", I have to stand by. Also I'm not sure how much it would cost to have the work done that I'm doing now.Below is a photo of the new and old Rockers and Lashes together .....
If you look at Camshaft retaining bracket 3, number 1 is too far on the right and not in the photo, then number 2 is the first one on the right, and number 3 is the one you have to look at. If you look at the 2 rockers either side of the bracket, the one to the left is shiny and the one to the right is dull. Obviously the shiny is the new one, there are other shiny ones to the left, at this picture there are 5 old one left to take out, the others have been changed.
I could not touch the timing, in any normal car I understand you take off the camshaft and pop the R&L out, can't do that here. Take off the camshaft and the engine has to come out. If the engine is out, then for the cost you had better recon the engine, including a new oil pump. That is not what I want to do.
no no no.By the end of the day all 12 exhaust Rockers and Lashes had been changed. GTDB7, how many of the R&L's do you want? I'll try and keep the inlet ones seperate. I have ordered another 12 R&L from AM and they should be here on Monday. So hopefully by the end of Monday or at least Tuesday (unless anything goes pearshaped) I should have all the R&L's in place, then comes the, "putting back together".
Went into a well known high street store (notice I didn't name the Halfords brand), and looked at this oil. ......
Its Mobil 1, it expensive, its state-of-the-art, its thicker ....... anyone got any comments on the ups and down of using such oil .... ?
Does anyone know the cost of the work that I am trying to do? I could really do with some, "feel good", factor, based on the money I'm saving. Because if someone says the whole job can be done for £500.00, i'll cry ......
You are a bit like myself, I enjoy doing a job myself if at all possble. Over the years I have restored a few cars and been around cars and bikes all my life.
I think the 10w 60 oil is a bit heavy, thats what is used in the V8 Vantage engine. If it was my project, when it's built up again, I would try a good fully synthetic 5W 40 oil first.
I suspect that with current labour rate this would be an expensive project. Out of interest how much are all the parts.
If this fails to fix the problem are you going to remove and strip the engine.
What have you decided to do about the catch tank ?
I think the 10w 60 oil is a bit heavy, thats what is used in the V8 Vantage engine. If it was my project, when it's built up again, I would try a good fully synthetic 5W 40 oil first.
I suspect that with current labour rate this would be an expensive project. Out of interest how much are all the parts.
If this fails to fix the problem are you going to remove and strip the engine.
What have you decided to do about the catch tank ?
drofnavi said:
If this fails to fix the problem are you going to remove and strip the engine.
I don't think so, I'll consider thicker oil, if not I'll live with it. However I did read the BR post about the propshaft, and might look at that, but lets just hope this resolves the issue.I'll look at the costs of everything after I bought it all. As for the catch tank, I'm looking at that on eBay at the mo.
Yeti. That is just the problem that you have pointed out. If BR would charge £75 per hour, plus vat and do it in a working day at 8 hours, thats £720.00 and they would have done it properly ....... bugger. They would have changed the airmanifolds gaskets etc, which I have not changed etc etc. To be honest £720.00 is damned well worth it .........
If I would have known it would be £720.00 in labour, I don't think I would have done it. Its nice to learn, but sometimes discretion is the better part of valour .....
drofnavi said:
You will get immense satisfaction from the project if you fix it yourself.
How is doing it ones self not doing it properly, provided you know what you are doing. When I service my car it is always done way better than any franchised dealer and I enjoy doing it, much cheaper as well.
How is doing it ones self not doing it properly, provided you know what you are doing. When I service my car it is always done way better than any franchised dealer and I enjoy doing it, much cheaper as well.
Hi Maverick,
Well done on the work so far. Just ensure you get the bearing caps for the cam back in the same places, if you mix them up it could cause problems!!
I myself think the lashes/rockers etc that cause the noise are on the inlet side, but this is only my own personal opinion based on my findings whilst probing my own engine. (when the tick is there)
As for old Lashes / Rockers, it would be good if I could get hold of the full set for the rear 3 cylinders, making 12 of each in total. If you could also in someway label each one as to it's original position then this will help us identify the cylinder number any failed units came from.
Surprisingly the tolerance for the drain down times are quite large and so to fail means they must have some heavy wear or a blockage after drain down has occurred.
For further info on the Lashes look up United States Patent, US 6,192,845 B1 (Feb 27 2001), filed Dec 22 1999, Application No. 09/470,713
There was a white paper from Ford on the V6 Duratec engine where a ticking noise would develop and the fix was simply to remove the bearing caps and replace them, but with a slight bias to one direction.
This fixed the ticking noise on those particular engines.
Although people keep saying these engines are two V6's bolted together that is not correct, there are sufficient differences to treat them as totally different engines, however there are also sufficient similarities also.
As you seem to be removing bearing caps then this could have some effect on the outcome. I will copy a quote from the V6 white paper here so you can see how they fixed a similar noise.
::::: V6 White Paper from Ford - copyright 2006 Ford Motor Company :::::
2001 - 2006 3.0L 4V Engines Only
May exhibit a ticking noise from one cylinder bank with engine at normal operating temperature only.
To Diagnose, with the engine running and warm (normal temp), using a stethoscope determine if the ticking noise coming from the cylinder bank intake camshaft at cylinder number 6. If the ticking noise can be verified, refer to following procedure.
Remove valve cover, rotate engine until cyl 6 intake lobes are pointing upwards and valves are fully closed. Remove all intake cam caps individually and reinstall them finger tight.
NOTE: Caps must be completely lifted off and not just loosened.
Torque the cap bolts in sequence to 8Nm (72 lb-in) EXCLUDING CAP 8L.
Using a screw driver, apply hand pressure to top of cam cap 8L and apply hand pressure and shift the cap 8L towards the exhaust side of the head.
while holding cap 8L in the shifted position torque the bolts inner then outer to 8Nm (72 lb-in).
Replace cover and run engine to temp to verify repair.
::::: end of quote :::::
Now the above may not be associated with our engines at all, however it makes interesting reading that an engine from the same stable has a similar noise and is fixed by simply re-seating the cam caps.
The above formed part of a TSB and was probably done to all engines as they came through servicing.
For clarity the 8L cap was the second to last at the rear of the engine, and by coincidence also the area of our common ticking noises on the V12's.
For those with access to Ford's TSB's refer to both TSB 04-20-8 and TSB 06-3-5 with the above being taken from the latter.
I edited some words to make the reading easier as the TSB refers to diagrams etc.
So it would seem that Ford from which our engines were derived have had this problem before and issues a TSB to fix it. Perhaps this is something that affects our engines on occasion and has yet to be identified correctly???
As you can see myself and my friend are scouring the information sources for anything that can shed light onto our symptoms. Where possible we wish to dissect the internals, both physically and literally to better understand what is going on.
Without wanting to cause further worry, other studies have found that excessive lash adjuster movement can lead to valve damage due to excessive closing velocity. Oil aeration is another suspect for lashes failing to function and has also formed technical papers from yes you guessed it FORD!
See SAE Paper 2004-01-0813 Ford Motor Company
For anyone looking up the documents listed in this post, you will agree that they all make for VERY interesting reading.
Well done on the work so far. Just ensure you get the bearing caps for the cam back in the same places, if you mix them up it could cause problems!!
I myself think the lashes/rockers etc that cause the noise are on the inlet side, but this is only my own personal opinion based on my findings whilst probing my own engine. (when the tick is there)
As for old Lashes / Rockers, it would be good if I could get hold of the full set for the rear 3 cylinders, making 12 of each in total. If you could also in someway label each one as to it's original position then this will help us identify the cylinder number any failed units came from.
Surprisingly the tolerance for the drain down times are quite large and so to fail means they must have some heavy wear or a blockage after drain down has occurred.
For further info on the Lashes look up United States Patent, US 6,192,845 B1 (Feb 27 2001), filed Dec 22 1999, Application No. 09/470,713
There was a white paper from Ford on the V6 Duratec engine where a ticking noise would develop and the fix was simply to remove the bearing caps and replace them, but with a slight bias to one direction.
This fixed the ticking noise on those particular engines.
Although people keep saying these engines are two V6's bolted together that is not correct, there are sufficient differences to treat them as totally different engines, however there are also sufficient similarities also.
As you seem to be removing bearing caps then this could have some effect on the outcome. I will copy a quote from the V6 white paper here so you can see how they fixed a similar noise.
::::: V6 White Paper from Ford - copyright 2006 Ford Motor Company :::::
2001 - 2006 3.0L 4V Engines Only
May exhibit a ticking noise from one cylinder bank with engine at normal operating temperature only.
To Diagnose, with the engine running and warm (normal temp), using a stethoscope determine if the ticking noise coming from the cylinder bank intake camshaft at cylinder number 6. If the ticking noise can be verified, refer to following procedure.
Remove valve cover, rotate engine until cyl 6 intake lobes are pointing upwards and valves are fully closed. Remove all intake cam caps individually and reinstall them finger tight.
NOTE: Caps must be completely lifted off and not just loosened.
Torque the cap bolts in sequence to 8Nm (72 lb-in) EXCLUDING CAP 8L.
Using a screw driver, apply hand pressure to top of cam cap 8L and apply hand pressure and shift the cap 8L towards the exhaust side of the head.
while holding cap 8L in the shifted position torque the bolts inner then outer to 8Nm (72 lb-in).
Replace cover and run engine to temp to verify repair.
::::: end of quote :::::
Now the above may not be associated with our engines at all, however it makes interesting reading that an engine from the same stable has a similar noise and is fixed by simply re-seating the cam caps.
The above formed part of a TSB and was probably done to all engines as they came through servicing.
For clarity the 8L cap was the second to last at the rear of the engine, and by coincidence also the area of our common ticking noises on the V12's.
For those with access to Ford's TSB's refer to both TSB 04-20-8 and TSB 06-3-5 with the above being taken from the latter.
I edited some words to make the reading easier as the TSB refers to diagrams etc.
So it would seem that Ford from which our engines were derived have had this problem before and issues a TSB to fix it. Perhaps this is something that affects our engines on occasion and has yet to be identified correctly???
As you can see myself and my friend are scouring the information sources for anything that can shed light onto our symptoms. Where possible we wish to dissect the internals, both physically and literally to better understand what is going on.
Without wanting to cause further worry, other studies have found that excessive lash adjuster movement can lead to valve damage due to excessive closing velocity. Oil aeration is another suspect for lashes failing to function and has also formed technical papers from yes you guessed it FORD!
See SAE Paper 2004-01-0813 Ford Motor Company
For anyone looking up the documents listed in this post, you will agree that they all make for VERY interesting reading.
I respect Maverick for doing this; I've always fettled with my cars myself. Taken a Prelude engine out and fitted a temp one in aboiut 18 hours, stripped and rebuilt the bottom end on a said engine, rebuilt a rotary, put in new hard pipes for brakes etc. For me now-a-days, spending a whole day working on the car and losing a day of wages isn't financially viable.
However, you can't say DIY can't be done "properly" - I'm in the middle of changing all the bushes out on my 350z before I sell it, I have all the FSM pages, torque for every nut and bolt and I'd be damned any dealer would be taking the care that I am on it.
However, you can't say DIY can't be done "properly" - I'm in the middle of changing all the bushes out on my 350z before I sell it, I have all the FSM pages, torque for every nut and bolt and I'd be damned any dealer would be taking the care that I am on it.
ds2000 said:
I respect Maverick for doing this; I've always fettled with my cars myself. Taken a Prelude engine out and fitted a temp one in aboiut 18 hours, stripped and rebuilt the bottom end on a said engine, rebuilt a rotary, put in new hard pipes for brakes etc. For me now-a-days, spending a whole day working on the car and losing a day of wages isn't financially viable.
However, you can't say DIY can't be done "properly" - I'm in the middle of changing all the bushes out on my 350z before I sell it, I have all the FSM pages, torque for every nut and bolt and I'd be damned any dealer would be taking the care that I am on it.
+1However, you can't say DIY can't be done "properly" - I'm in the middle of changing all the bushes out on my 350z before I sell it, I have all the FSM pages, torque for every nut and bolt and I'd be damned any dealer would be taking the care that I am on it.
I love a good fettle
My time is more valuable else where now though
Also with modern cars simple jobs are no longer and most need PC's
I won't post again on this thread, don't want to upset the love-in
We have done the 'main dealer Vs indie' stuff to death on here and some will always want that dealer stamp. Does anyone want a home repaired car? We aren't talking basic servicing here or changing bushes or brake pads; we're talking about dismantling and rebuilding a modern ECU controlled V12 engine. With no prior experience, just a set of spanners.
'Done properly' in this instance questions if the inlet system has been put back together without air leaks, this needs a diagnostic kit and knowledge to interrogate lambda sensor readings.
After this, done properly can only be assessed after around 10k miles later if the problem has not returned and the engine has not developed other faults as result of potentially being put back together incorrectly. Yes, I'm sure you get pleasure and reward from fixing your own car (I fiddle with my classic Alfa), my point here is why bother when the pro's can do it in a day, for £700 and warrant their work. And whilst they repair your car for their fee, I'm sure you can earn more than this conducting your business, all these factors make it a no brainer in my mind to leave this sort of surgery to those that do it for a living. I hope you sort this problem and you drive the car and enjoy it the more for your at home fix, but the level of strip pictured here worries me that a minute detail point is missed which could cause catastrophic damage to the engine later and incur a huge repair bill.
I may be wrong and the OP is a fully certified Aston trained mechanic with the correct diagnostic tools... But if not, the Aston V12 is not the same as a BMC A-Series engine. I feel for the future owner of this car, imagine finding this thread a few years later.
My two penneth and I'll leve you to your labours with sincere fingers crossed that it all goes back together OK
We have done the 'main dealer Vs indie' stuff to death on here and some will always want that dealer stamp. Does anyone want a home repaired car? We aren't talking basic servicing here or changing bushes or brake pads; we're talking about dismantling and rebuilding a modern ECU controlled V12 engine. With no prior experience, just a set of spanners.
'Done properly' in this instance questions if the inlet system has been put back together without air leaks, this needs a diagnostic kit and knowledge to interrogate lambda sensor readings.
After this, done properly can only be assessed after around 10k miles later if the problem has not returned and the engine has not developed other faults as result of potentially being put back together incorrectly. Yes, I'm sure you get pleasure and reward from fixing your own car (I fiddle with my classic Alfa), my point here is why bother when the pro's can do it in a day, for £700 and warrant their work. And whilst they repair your car for their fee, I'm sure you can earn more than this conducting your business, all these factors make it a no brainer in my mind to leave this sort of surgery to those that do it for a living. I hope you sort this problem and you drive the car and enjoy it the more for your at home fix, but the level of strip pictured here worries me that a minute detail point is missed which could cause catastrophic damage to the engine later and incur a huge repair bill.
I may be wrong and the OP is a fully certified Aston trained mechanic with the correct diagnostic tools... But if not, the Aston V12 is not the same as a BMC A-Series engine. I feel for the future owner of this car, imagine finding this thread a few years later.
My two penneth and I'll leve you to your labours with sincere fingers crossed that it all goes back together OK
These early V12 engines are pretty basic, nothing special about them and in my mind are only one step above the simplest setup using buckets and shims.
With the mention of the old A-series engines, those could be seen as being more complicated.
Block mounted camshaft, pushrods, tappets that require adjustment, integral clutch and gearbox.
Though very easy to work on all the same. Common fault on those was the gear selector oil seal and the old points distributor were not very reliable over time in adverse weather, but easily switched over to electronic ignition thanks to the Metro that used the A+ engine.
With the mention of the old A-series engines, those could be seen as being more complicated.
Block mounted camshaft, pushrods, tappets that require adjustment, integral clutch and gearbox.
Though very easy to work on all the same. Common fault on those was the gear selector oil seal and the old points distributor were not very reliable over time in adverse weather, but easily switched over to electronic ignition thanks to the Metro that used the A+ engine.
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