V12 or V8, the great debate .....
Discussion
Hello All, V12 or V8, the great debate ….
Some of you think that I have droned on about the difference between V12’s and V8’s , and one of you commented that it was getting tiresome, indeed I can understand your concern.
I am well in the camp of the V12, I guess you already knew that. Why am I in the V12 camp ?
V8’s are clearly better, they are lighter (I’m guessing full 200kg), they probably do 1/3 more to the gallon as they have 1/3 less cylinder. Because they are smaller, they can be more easily placed anywhere in the car, and of course lower down, so better handling. With Euro Emissions getting ever more stringent, V8’s are clearly the way forward, with the leviathan V12’s dying a certain death. Not forgetting that they are cheaper to produce, look at the price difference between a V8V and V12V.
Power: with the Tech advances of Turbo charging, V8’s can produce the same power and more than a V12. Indeed, the DB9 V12 started at 450 and is now 470, the V8 stared at 380, then 400, then 420 and now I understand the VS has 430, in a car that weights less, and its cheaper to produce. McLaren even said that V12’s were a thing of the past …
So if a V8 is lighter, just as powerful, smaller, more fuel efficient, and cheaper to make, then what is the point of a V12 lump?
Personally, I believe the point is quite simple.
A V12 has the X factor, I don’t mean that it can sing (Or maybe I do). The main big Supercars, the truly great cars, are V12’s. Lambo, last of the Supercars (mostly museum pieces) are big V12’s, the Vanquish (S) a 200mph Supercar, Bentley’s (W12’s), RollsRoyce, big V12’s (they developed a V16), Ferrari Enzo V12, FFX V12. Mercedes McLaren V12.
All the above cars are the outstanding cars of our time, there are many many other outstanding cars, but I pose this question, the above cars can all be pushed into a garage and they will become collectors items (if they are not already).
I ask the question, if you have a 2004 Vanquish and a 2009 Vantage, which one will you push into a garage as a true classic of it’s time? A Ferrari Enzo or a 348? A Mercedes McLaren or a SL55?
V12’s cannot be justified on any level at all, except for the X Factor, at the end of the day, it comes down to, “Wanting", a V12 over a V8.
V8’s make very very fast sports cars, V12’s make Supercars.
Some of you think that I have droned on about the difference between V12’s and V8’s , and one of you commented that it was getting tiresome, indeed I can understand your concern.
I am well in the camp of the V12, I guess you already knew that. Why am I in the V12 camp ?
V8’s are clearly better, they are lighter (I’m guessing full 200kg), they probably do 1/3 more to the gallon as they have 1/3 less cylinder. Because they are smaller, they can be more easily placed anywhere in the car, and of course lower down, so better handling. With Euro Emissions getting ever more stringent, V8’s are clearly the way forward, with the leviathan V12’s dying a certain death. Not forgetting that they are cheaper to produce, look at the price difference between a V8V and V12V.
Power: with the Tech advances of Turbo charging, V8’s can produce the same power and more than a V12. Indeed, the DB9 V12 started at 450 and is now 470, the V8 stared at 380, then 400, then 420 and now I understand the VS has 430, in a car that weights less, and its cheaper to produce. McLaren even said that V12’s were a thing of the past …
So if a V8 is lighter, just as powerful, smaller, more fuel efficient, and cheaper to make, then what is the point of a V12 lump?
Personally, I believe the point is quite simple.
A V12 has the X factor, I don’t mean that it can sing (Or maybe I do). The main big Supercars, the truly great cars, are V12’s. Lambo, last of the Supercars (mostly museum pieces) are big V12’s, the Vanquish (S) a 200mph Supercar, Bentley’s (W12’s), RollsRoyce, big V12’s (they developed a V16), Ferrari Enzo V12, FFX V12. Mercedes McLaren V12.
All the above cars are the outstanding cars of our time, there are many many other outstanding cars, but I pose this question, the above cars can all be pushed into a garage and they will become collectors items (if they are not already).
I ask the question, if you have a 2004 Vanquish and a 2009 Vantage, which one will you push into a garage as a true classic of it’s time? A Ferrari Enzo or a 348? A Mercedes McLaren or a SL55?
V12’s cannot be justified on any level at all, except for the X Factor, at the end of the day, it comes down to, “Wanting", a V12 over a V8.
V8’s make very very fast sports cars, V12’s make Supercars.
Are you comparing engine configurations?
Or DB9s vs Vantages? What about V12 Vantages?
For me the V12 engined Astons represent the flagship model and have done for a over decade now. When I had 50k to spend, I could have had a DB9 or a V8 Vantage; the DB9 just seemed, in cliched terms, so much more for the money!
I prefer a long wheelbased car's handling characteristics (high-speed stability, weight transfer in corners) though I accept the Vantage is nippier and more agile. The Nine is a GT with sporting credentials, the Vantage is... Well, actually the same thing, just a bit smaller and more agile.
There was a time when Vantages were the bottom of the range and DB9s were the top. Then there was the V12 Vantage which blurred the distinction and the DBS appeared as a bodykitted DB9. Then there was the Vantage S, now there is the new DB9... And the 310quish which is certainly the most expensive car they make, apart from the Zagato... And previously the One-77, all V12s.
It does seem appropriate that the flagships carry the V12 and hopefully continue to do so. I hope they also keep the manual option with it in some way
And the V8 is weirdly no more economical than the V12. We all seem to get around the same mileage.
Or DB9s vs Vantages? What about V12 Vantages?
For me the V12 engined Astons represent the flagship model and have done for a over decade now. When I had 50k to spend, I could have had a DB9 or a V8 Vantage; the DB9 just seemed, in cliched terms, so much more for the money!
I prefer a long wheelbased car's handling characteristics (high-speed stability, weight transfer in corners) though I accept the Vantage is nippier and more agile. The Nine is a GT with sporting credentials, the Vantage is... Well, actually the same thing, just a bit smaller and more agile.
There was a time when Vantages were the bottom of the range and DB9s were the top. Then there was the V12 Vantage which blurred the distinction and the DBS appeared as a bodykitted DB9. Then there was the Vantage S, now there is the new DB9... And the 310quish which is certainly the most expensive car they make, apart from the Zagato... And previously the One-77, all V12s.
It does seem appropriate that the flagships carry the V12 and hopefully continue to do so. I hope they also keep the manual option with it in some way
And the V8 is weirdly no more economical than the V12. We all seem to get around the same mileage.
MaverickV12 said:
Hello All, V12 or V8, the great debate ….
Some of you think that I have droned on about the difference between V12’s and V8’s , and one of you commented that it was getting tiresome, indeed I can understand your concern.
I am well in the camp of the V12, I guess you already knew that. Why am I in the V12 camp ?
V8’s are clearly better, they are lighter (I’m guessing full 200kg), they probably do 1/3 more to the gallon as they have 1/3 less cylinder. Because they are smaller, they can be more easily placed anywhere in the car, and of course lower down, so better handling. With Euro Emissions getting ever more stringent, V8’s are clearly the way forward, with the leviathan V12’s dying a certain death. Not forgetting that they are cheaper to produce, look at the price difference between a V8V and V12V.
Power: with the Tech advances of Turbo charging, V8’s can produce the same power and more than a V12. Indeed, the DB9 V12 started at 450 and is now 470, the V8 stared at 380, then 400, then 420 and now I understand the VS has 430, in a car that weights less, and its cheaper to produce. McLaren even said that V12’s were a thing of the past …
So if a V8 is lighter, just as powerful, smaller, more fuel efficient, and cheaper to make, then what is the point of a V12 lump?
Personally, I believe the point is quite simple.
A V12 has the X factor, I don’t mean that it can sing (Or maybe I do). The main big Supercars, the truly great cars, are V12’s. Lambo, last of the Supercars (mostly museum pieces) are big V12’s, the Vanquish (S) a 200mph Supercar, Bentley’s (W12’s), RollsRoyce, big V12’s (they developed a V16), Ferrari Enzo V12, FFX V12. Mercedes McLaren V12.
All the above cars are the outstanding cars of our time, there are many many other outstanding cars, but I pose this question, the above cars can all be pushed into a garage and they will become collectors items (if they are not already).
I ask the question, if you have a 2004 Vanquish and a 2009 Vantage, which one will you push into a garage as a true classic of it’s time? A Ferrari Enzo or a 348? A Mercedes McLaren or a SL55?
V12’s cannot be justified on any level at all, except for the X Factor, at the end of the day, it comes down to, “Wanting", a V12 over a V8.
V8’s make very very fast sports cars, V12’s make Supercars.
Sounds like you are still trying to convince yourselfSome of you think that I have droned on about the difference between V12’s and V8’s , and one of you commented that it was getting tiresome, indeed I can understand your concern.
I am well in the camp of the V12, I guess you already knew that. Why am I in the V12 camp ?
V8’s are clearly better, they are lighter (I’m guessing full 200kg), they probably do 1/3 more to the gallon as they have 1/3 less cylinder. Because they are smaller, they can be more easily placed anywhere in the car, and of course lower down, so better handling. With Euro Emissions getting ever more stringent, V8’s are clearly the way forward, with the leviathan V12’s dying a certain death. Not forgetting that they are cheaper to produce, look at the price difference between a V8V and V12V.
Power: with the Tech advances of Turbo charging, V8’s can produce the same power and more than a V12. Indeed, the DB9 V12 started at 450 and is now 470, the V8 stared at 380, then 400, then 420 and now I understand the VS has 430, in a car that weights less, and its cheaper to produce. McLaren even said that V12’s were a thing of the past …
So if a V8 is lighter, just as powerful, smaller, more fuel efficient, and cheaper to make, then what is the point of a V12 lump?
Personally, I believe the point is quite simple.
A V12 has the X factor, I don’t mean that it can sing (Or maybe I do). The main big Supercars, the truly great cars, are V12’s. Lambo, last of the Supercars (mostly museum pieces) are big V12’s, the Vanquish (S) a 200mph Supercar, Bentley’s (W12’s), RollsRoyce, big V12’s (they developed a V16), Ferrari Enzo V12, FFX V12. Mercedes McLaren V12.
All the above cars are the outstanding cars of our time, there are many many other outstanding cars, but I pose this question, the above cars can all be pushed into a garage and they will become collectors items (if they are not already).
I ask the question, if you have a 2004 Vanquish and a 2009 Vantage, which one will you push into a garage as a true classic of it’s time? A Ferrari Enzo or a 348? A Mercedes McLaren or a SL55?
V12’s cannot be justified on any level at all, except for the X Factor, at the end of the day, it comes down to, “Wanting", a V12 over a V8.
V8’s make very very fast sports cars, V12’s make Supercars.
MaverickV12 said:
Hello All, V12 or V8, the great debate ….
V12’s cannot be justified on any level at all, except for the X Factor, at the end of the day, it comes down to, “Wanting", a V12 over a V8.
I think just by driving say a 4.7L V8VS and then a 6.0L V12V, one will instinctively know which is the better engine and which car one (or the majority of owners) would most prefer to have. Simples.V12’s cannot be justified on any level at all, except for the X Factor, at the end of the day, it comes down to, “Wanting", a V12 over a V8.
t.....i have a dbs....
Nobody wants V12's anymore!
"What’s more, more expensive V12 models have slid to 56% of total sales, while less costly V8 models have risen to nearly 37% of sales from just under 30% in the same period a year ago"
Full report here
http://blogs.wsj.com/drivers-seat/2012/12/03/skyfa...
"What’s more, more expensive V12 models have slid to 56% of total sales, while less costly V8 models have risen to nearly 37% of sales from just under 30% in the same period a year ago"
Full report here
http://blogs.wsj.com/drivers-seat/2012/12/03/skyfa...
DB9VolanteDriver said:
MaverickV12 said:
Hello All, V12 or V8, the great debate ….
V8’s are clearly better, they are lighter (I’m guessing full 200kg),
Not remotely close...V8’s are clearly better, they are lighter (I’m guessing full 200kg),
A V12V is only 70 Kg more than a V8S. A very small price (weight wise) to pay for a lot more oomph and undeniable cachet.
CatalystV12V said:
DB9VolanteDriver said:
MaverickV12 said:
Hello All, V12 or V8, the great debate ….
V8’s are clearly better, they are lighter (I’m guessing full 200kg),
Not remotely close...V8’s are clearly better, they are lighter (I’m guessing full 200kg),
A V12V is only 70 Kg more than a V8S. A very small price (weight wise) to pay for a lot more oomph and undeniable cachet.
yeti said:
CatalystV12V said:
DB9VolanteDriver said:
MaverickV12 said:
Hello All, V12 or V8, the great debate ….
V8’s are clearly better, they are lighter (I’m guessing full 200kg),
Not remotely close...V8’s are clearly better, they are lighter (I’m guessing full 200kg),
A V12V is only 70 Kg more than a V8S. A very small price (weight wise) to pay for a lot more oomph and undeniable cachet.
MaverickV12 said:
A V12 has the X factor, I don’t mean that it can sing (Or maybe I do). The main big Supercars, the truly great cars, are V12’s. Lambo, last of the Supercars (mostly museum pieces) are big V12’s, the Vanquish (S) a 200mph Supercar, Bentley’s (W12’s), RollsRoyce, big V12’s (they developed a V16), Ferrari Enzo V12, FFX V12. Mercedes McLaren V12.
All the above cars are the outstanding cars of our time, there are many many other outstanding cars, but I pose this question, the above cars can all be pushed into a garage and they will become collectors items (if they are not already).
I ask the question, if you have a 2004 Vanquish and a 2009 Vantage, which one will you push into a garage as a true classic of it’s time? A Ferrari Enzo or a 348? A Mercedes McLaren or a SL55?
V12’s cannot be justified on any level at all, except for the X Factor, at the end of the day, it comes down to, “Wanting", a V12 over a V8.
V8’s make very very fast sports cars, V12’s make Supercars.
Firstly, you talk about 'the great supercars'. You then do nothing to help support your argument by listing what they are as 'lambos' (fine), vanquish (may be great but not one of the great supercars of all time), Bentley & Rolls (who haven't made a supercar, or IMO a sports car, between them), Enzo & FFX (fine, but the twin turbo V8 F40 will go down in history as by far the more iconic great supercar over an enzo or FXX) and a 'mclaren mercedes V12' whatever that may be ?!?All the above cars are the outstanding cars of our time, there are many many other outstanding cars, but I pose this question, the above cars can all be pushed into a garage and they will become collectors items (if they are not already).
I ask the question, if you have a 2004 Vanquish and a 2009 Vantage, which one will you push into a garage as a true classic of it’s time? A Ferrari Enzo or a 348? A Mercedes McLaren or a SL55?
V12’s cannot be justified on any level at all, except for the X Factor, at the end of the day, it comes down to, “Wanting", a V12 over a V8.
V8’s make very very fast sports cars, V12’s make Supercars.
In your next paragraph you try to support your argument further by comparing a vanquish (which was the top of a 3 car aston range when it was in production) to the vantage (which is the bottom), the hypercar at the top of the ferrari range to one of the least desirable entry level ferraris of all time and costs today 30 times as much and then again, this mysterious v12 mercedes mclaren with one of the many amg55 versions of mercedes' boulevard cruiser/GT. Why you make these 3 comparisons I don't know but again, it doesn't help your argument. I'll throw DB4GT/GT Zag, in fact ANY DB4/5/6 into the ring as being more iconic & 'great' than almost any Aston until the modern day and none of them have V12s!
You finish off by appearing to suggest that V12s actually don't offer any justifiable advantage, despite having listed them as powering the great cars of our time, suggesting you only buy them for x factor
Seriously ??????
Firstly, decide whether you are really asking 'are V8 engines better or worse than V12' (if you are btw, the answer is simple - it depends. On chassis, car, transmission and purpose) or in fact, are you asking what is better between V8 & V12 in the current Aston range
Then accept that there isn't an answer to that question either. The reason for the baiting that sometimes appears on here has nothing to do with any of this and instead is in fact based on the fact V8 vantages are cheaper (when new) than the V12 2+2s so those with the V12s sometimes like to take the mick along the lines of the Porsche 911/Cayman arguments.
However if you do actually want to have a discussion about the only sensible question, V8 Vantage vs V12 Vantage, then stick to the relevant facts to help - V8 Vantage in it's latest guise is a touch better balanced/sweeter than the V12 (although in new roadster form maybe not so much difference :-)), it is cheaper to buy and run (everything from tyres, to fuel, to purchase price) and is not any slower round a track in the hand of most of us but V12 has that amazing straight line surge when you drop a gear that gives a grin from ear to ear and combined with the noise, is arguably a little more 'special' .
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