Discussion
AdamV12V said:
jonby said:
here we go
vid on new car
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky7mf1PxQQE&fea...
it would appear, somewhat disappointingly, that this is using current shape - bonnet vents, interior, lights, etc look the same ?
I was told weeks ago, and posted as much, that it would be same shape, Vanquish310 engine (i.e. 565BHP) and SS2 gearbox.vid on new car
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky7mf1PxQQE&fea...
it would appear, somewhat disappointingly, that this is using current shape - bonnet vents, interior, lights, etc look the same ?
As much as you are all hoping for more power and a new shape, I just cant see that either of those would commercially stack up for AM right now. The above combo is basically a rework of existing range parts to make the most spicy possible combo.
The interesting and still unknown bit for me is price and quanitiy of cars to be made.
There seems a lot of rumours of a 600+ bhp engine. There is definitely a new shape in the offing. I particularly don't get how it stacks up to reposition the new engine from a pedestrian regs point of view with the re-jigging of the chassis to do same, in a shape that only has a yr or so's life left in it - once they are doing those changes, you'd have thought it would be in conjunction with a shape that has several yrs+ life left
But obviously they have found a way...
silverspeed said:
jonby said:
here we go
vid on new car
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky7mf1PxQQE&fea...
it would appear, somewhat disappointingly, that this is using current shape - bonnet vents, interior, lights, etc look the same ?
Yes looks to be the same as current plus Im not sure it has paddles on the steering wheel - you can see the centre dash which I think would be blocked if paddles were there. Could be that they are just using current V12V for photography purposes. Should help current V12V residuals if it looks the same . Interesting to see where they pitch the price bearing in mind discounts on the current one !vid on new car
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky7mf1PxQQE&fea...
it would appear, somewhat disappointingly, that this is using current shape - bonnet vents, interior, lights, etc look the same ?
No new shape or interior to get excited about. No manual to 'compete' with mine. Insufficient power upgrade to make me 'concerned'. No regrets over my purchase or wistful looks at the new car !!! :-)
silverspeed said:
jonby said:
here we go
vid on new car
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky7mf1PxQQE&fea...
it would appear, somewhat disappointingly, that this is using current shape - bonnet vents, interior, lights, etc look the same ?
Yes looks to be the same as current plus Im not sure it has paddles on the steering wheel - you can see the centre dash which I think would be blocked if paddles were there. Could be that they are just using current V12V for photography purposes. Should help current V12V residuals if it looks the same . Interesting to see where they pitch the price bearing in mind discounts on the current one !vid on new car
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky7mf1PxQQE&fea...
it would appear, somewhat disappointingly, that this is using current shape - bonnet vents, interior, lights, etc look the same ?
Paddle are higher up so I doubt you would see them from that angle
Wheels look different to all the current Vantage ones?
jonby said:
As I've said before, perhaps there are 2 different cars in the offing
There seems a lot of rumours of a 600+ bhp engine. There is definitely a new shape in the offing. I particularly don't get how it stacks up to reposition the new engine from a pedestrian regs point of view with the re-jigging of the chassis to do same, in a shape that only has a yr or so's life left in it - once they are doing those changes, you'd have thought it would be in conjunction with a shape that has several yrs+ life left
But obviously they have found a way...
Very fair point you make, 2 cars (this now, and a new shape 640BHP next year) would answer a lot of questions and satisfy both camps of conflicting information!There seems a lot of rumours of a 600+ bhp engine. There is definitely a new shape in the offing. I particularly don't get how it stacks up to reposition the new engine from a pedestrian regs point of view with the re-jigging of the chassis to do same, in a shape that only has a yr or so's life left in it - once they are doing those changes, you'd have thought it would be in conjunction with a shape that has several yrs+ life left
But obviously they have found a way...
mikey k said:
silverspeed said:
jonby said:
here we go
vid on new car
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky7mf1PxQQE&fea...
it would appear, somewhat disappointingly, that this is using current shape - bonnet vents, interior, lights, etc look the same ?
Yes looks to be the same as current plus Im not sure it has paddles on the steering wheel - you can see the centre dash which I think would be blocked if paddles were there. Could be that they are just using current V12V for photography purposes. Should help current V12V residuals if it looks the same . Interesting to see where they pitch the price bearing in mind discounts on the current one !vid on new car
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky7mf1PxQQE&fea...
it would appear, somewhat disappointingly, that this is using current shape - bonnet vents, interior, lights, etc look the same ?
Paddle are higher up so I doubt you would see them from that angle
Wheels look different to all the current Vantage ones?
if it's the same interior in the new car, they will just as likely use shots of a manual coupe for these purposes - they have history :-) (SP10)
Thank you mikey k and jonby.
One final question.
For racing we are familiar with the on-board F1 TV coverage, where the steering wheel buttons seem to produce absolutely instantaneous gearchanges (compared to a road car, where there is sometimes a hesitation).
Secondly, with sports and saloon car racing and rallying, the sequential gearchange system has become popular (which I presume has a similarity with the type that has always been used on motorcycles).
On what basis do they work and are these two systems of the type that you have just referred to, or are they additional alternative types?
robgt said:
Been told today the gearbox will be Sport Shift 3!!! How about that for hot information? Pricing will be circa £150K . Vanquish 2 engine with revised breathing . Car will weigh less than outgoing model. The box will reduce the weight.
Sportshift 3? I wonder if that's the same box as used in the One-77. Seems odd they would make a lighter, faster and more powerful car, less expensive than the Vanquish too...
Jon39 said:
Thank you mikey k and jonby.
One final question.
For racing we are familiar with the on-board F1 TV coverage, where the steering wheel buttons seem to produce absolutely instantaneous gearchanges (compared to a road car, where there is sometimes a hesitation).
Secondly, with sports and saloon car racing and rallying, the sequential gearchange system has become popular (which I presume has a similarity with the type that has always been used on motorcycles).
On what basis do they work and are these two systems of the type that you have just referred to, or are they additional altenative types?
F1 & sequential systems are more akin to the ASM systems using a different style of electronics/hydraulics to initiate a change on a non torque converter box. They are more complicated - F1 has two clutches, WRC has different maps for the gear changesOne final question.
For racing we are familiar with the on-board F1 TV coverage, where the steering wheel buttons seem to produce absolutely instantaneous gearchanges (compared to a road car, where there is sometimes a hesitation).
Secondly, with sports and saloon car racing and rallying, the sequential gearchange system has become popular (which I presume has a similarity with the type that has always been used on motorcycles).
On what basis do they work and are these two systems of the type that you have just referred to, or are they additional altenative types?
George29 said:
robgt said:
Been told today the gearbox will be Sport Shift 3!!! How about that for hot information? Pricing will be circa £150K . Vanquish 2 engine with revised breathing . Car will weigh less than outgoing model. The box will reduce the weight.
Sportshift 3? I wonder if that's the same box as used in the One-77. too...
it was 6 speed and arguably the weakest links from what I've read/heard
can't see them saving that much from a new but similar gearbox surely ?
wheels again could save a little but I'd be amazed if they save more than 10-20kg on the car overall
unless they do what makes sooo much sense and build a proper lightweight stripped back version of V12v, but the pics appear to show that's not the case
jonby said:
George29 said:
robgt said:
Been told today the gearbox will be Sport Shift 3!!! How about that for hot information? Pricing will be circa £150K . Vanquish 2 engine with revised breathing . Car will weigh less than outgoing model. The box will reduce the weight.
Sportshift 3? I wonder if that's the same box as used in the One-77. too...
it was 6 speed and arguably the weakest links from what I've read/heard
can't see them saving that much from a new but similar gearbox surely ?
wheels again could save a little but I'd be amazed if they save more than 10-20kg on the car overall
unless they do what makes sooo much sense and build a proper lightweight stripped back version of V12v, but the pics appear to show that's not the case
Zod said:
jonby said:
George29 said:
robgt said:
Been told today the gearbox will be Sport Shift 3!!! How about that for hot information? Pricing will be circa £150K . Vanquish 2 engine with revised breathing . Car will weigh less than outgoing model. The box will reduce the weight.
Sportshift 3? I wonder if that's the same box as used in the One-77. too...
it was 6 speed and arguably the weakest links from what I've read/heard
can't see them saving that much from a new but similar gearbox surely ?
wheels again could save a little but I'd be amazed if they save more than 10-20kg on the car overall
unless they do what makes sooo much sense and build a proper lightweight stripped back version of V12v, but the pics appear to show that's not the case
Got to say, whilst this new car looks like it'll be lovely and all that, with the discounts on new V12V about recently, I do question how many people will actually want to (and be able to...) buy one. I know production run might dictate that in that if it's very small it'll sell out.
It's not a new car, so I doubt people that previously chose not to buy a V12V are suddenly going to rush out and chop in their 458's etc (unless I'm underestimating how many people were turned off by a manual box). Current owners are probably going to laugh at the trade-in they get offered, so not go for it and a lot of us dreamers might say we'd buy one, but aren't able to.
Also on the assumption there will be a replacement Vantage in the next couple of years, the shape is certainly coming towards the end of it's production.
I'm sure it'll be incredible, but people are going to have some great man maths going on if they actually involve parting with circa £150k
It's not a new car, so I doubt people that previously chose not to buy a V12V are suddenly going to rush out and chop in their 458's etc (unless I'm underestimating how many people were turned off by a manual box). Current owners are probably going to laugh at the trade-in they get offered, so not go for it and a lot of us dreamers might say we'd buy one, but aren't able to.
Also on the assumption there will be a replacement Vantage in the next couple of years, the shape is certainly coming towards the end of it's production.
I'm sure it'll be incredible, but people are going to have some great man maths going on if they actually involve parting with circa £150k
I agree this car will be a hard sell to existing V12V coupe owners if it costs say 70k+ to change and is broadly similar bar gearbox and 55bhp more. Although it will conversely appeal to those with astons or other marques who simply don't want manual
A couple of further thoughts though - I see 2 possible scenarios
The first is that they haven;t engineered this car for new pedestrian regs. If so, they could have relatively simply put the new engine and gearbox in the car. In turn, they may be making a v ltd run of say 100-250 cars, all to be sold in the next few months
This would allow for a new vantage 'concept' to be revealed in august, for production next year
This would explain the launch now not co-inciding with an event such as le mans. It would also explain why they are bothering with fitting this engine into a car with a ltd life span
THe second scenario is that they have engineered it to meet ongoing regs. If so, this indicates that vantage has a longer lifespan, say to end of 2014 minimum and in turn, V12VS will not be a ltd production run
That means either the rumoured 640bhp model is simply a myth, in which case what models are they going to launch in august, or perhaps the answer in this second scenario, is a standalone out & out performance model on it's way, in a different body or less likely at this early stage IMO, a full on hardcore version of vanquish, in the way DBS was to DB9, at a significant price jump - it will have to be more different than DBS was to DB9 to avoid disgruntled vanquish customers but the problem there is, will the market stand a 250k vanquish coupe - I doubt it unless it's very special indeed
I appreciate lots more questions there than answers but it certainly does open the door for what is being launched in august (they have stated 2 new cars) and I do think the ped regs/chassis changes or lack of/ltd ed or not status of V12VS will go some way towards telling us what's going on
A couple of further thoughts though - I see 2 possible scenarios
The first is that they haven;t engineered this car for new pedestrian regs. If so, they could have relatively simply put the new engine and gearbox in the car. In turn, they may be making a v ltd run of say 100-250 cars, all to be sold in the next few months
This would allow for a new vantage 'concept' to be revealed in august, for production next year
This would explain the launch now not co-inciding with an event such as le mans. It would also explain why they are bothering with fitting this engine into a car with a ltd life span
THe second scenario is that they have engineered it to meet ongoing regs. If so, this indicates that vantage has a longer lifespan, say to end of 2014 minimum and in turn, V12VS will not be a ltd production run
That means either the rumoured 640bhp model is simply a myth, in which case what models are they going to launch in august, or perhaps the answer in this second scenario, is a standalone out & out performance model on it's way, in a different body or less likely at this early stage IMO, a full on hardcore version of vanquish, in the way DBS was to DB9, at a significant price jump - it will have to be more different than DBS was to DB9 to avoid disgruntled vanquish customers but the problem there is, will the market stand a 250k vanquish coupe - I doubt it unless it's very special indeed
I appreciate lots more questions there than answers but it certainly does open the door for what is being launched in august (they have stated 2 new cars) and I do think the ped regs/chassis changes or lack of/ltd ed or not status of V12VS will go some way towards telling us what's going on
Edited by jonby on Friday 24th May 16:58
Interesting to see what engine and transmission they will use in this new V12V S (or whatever name they come up with). Seems logical they use an existing engine, not a new one, so the Vqs II one seems logical. If the rumor about > 200 mph top speed is correct, it must have a different gearbox, so NO classic auto box with torque convertor (type 2 in Jon39s overview list) but either a manual (type 1) or automated manual/sequential gearbox (type 3).
No 2 : as fitted to DB9 / DBS / Vanquish310
No 3 : SS1 as fitted to V8V; SS2 as fitted to latest V8V / V8VS / rumoured to fitted to the V12VS
Other manufactuers all tend to use No 2 now e.g. (BMW DKG/DSG/DCT - Audi/VW DSG - Porsche PDK)
BMW used to use No 3 with their SMG system as fitted to the old M3, M5 and M6 but have now abandoned it in favour of No 2.Not completely correct: type 2 is "classic" auto box with torque convertor indeed used by AM on the models mentioned (and with limited top speed), but BMW, Audi, Porsche, etc use a sequential/automated-manual gearbox with double clutch, so type 3.
Type 3 comes in two variants: with single clutch (V8V, maybe V12VS, Aventador, etc) or double clutch (all 'mainstream' Porkers, Beemers and Audis).
AdamV12V said:
Jon39 said:
Please help those of us who are confused about the gearbox / gearchange abreviations.
1. I know manual.
2. I know torque converter automatic.
3. I think I know one type of paddle shift - a manual gearbox with electrical gear changes (that sometimes does change when you expect).
As for SS, presumably the Aston name for numer 3.
Thank you.
Most flappy paddle gearboxes these days are derivatives of your No 2 in that they are an automatic gearbox (or dual gearboxes) that can be operated manually. No 3 is a manual gearbox that changes automatically, if that makes sense i.e. Same gearbox as No 1, but where the clutch is automatically pressed, gears changed and the clutch released.1. I know manual.
2. I know torque converter automatic.
3. I think I know one type of paddle shift - a manual gearbox with electrical gear changes (that sometimes does change when you expect).
As for SS, presumably the Aston name for numer 3.
Thank you.
No 2 : as fitted to DB9 / DBS / Vanquish310
No 3 : SS1 as fitted to V8V; SS2 as fitted to latest V8V / V8VS / rumoured to fitted to the V12VS
Other manufactuers all tend to use No 2 now e.g. (BMW DKG/DSG/DCT - Audi/VW DSG - Porsche PDK)
BMW used to use No 3 with their SMG system as fitted to the old M3, M5 and M6 but have now abandoned it in favour of No 2.
Type 3 comes in two variants: with single clutch (V8V, maybe V12VS, Aventador, etc) or double clutch (all 'mainstream' Porkers, Beemers and Audis).
Edited by AWV12 on Saturday 25th May 22:11
Edited by AWV12 on Saturday 25th May 22:12
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