V12V Spec

[GRBF430F1]

jonby said:

mikey k reckons the lightweight seats make the issue worse - what was in the car you test drove ?

I find clutch relatively light for this kind of car

In mine, for different reasons, I went for the V8 gearstick which is shorter

It was with lightweight seats which are a must have option for me. All my current and past cars have had them but its only the Aston that I had issues with regards the gear stick position being too far back.

Dont get me wrong its obviously driveable and you would probably get used to it or adapt but I don't think it adds to the experience

[drjonV12V]

GRBF430F1 said:

Have been offered finally what amounts to £30k off list and pushed them hard to get more but that seems to be the bottom line. An extra £10k would make the man maths and 1st year depreciation more palatable.

Don't know whether to buy the so called £30k off list £111k brand new car or a second hand 2011 car ( as new condition 1 owner, 6,000 mile ) at £90k.

Whats likely to lose less over the next 2 years and 6,000 miles ? Once these cars are gone are the residuals going to firm up across the board for the V12V or will Aston heavily discount the new S in a panic and push them even lower. I can't call that one not knowing the brand very well but a few posts on here suggest a used £90k V12V will be lucky to be worth £65k trade in 2 years time.

Any advice appreciated

I recently faced a very similar dilemma, that is, I had a DB9 to trade for a V12V, and was faced with the choice of a new dealer-specced, heavily discounted car, versus a late 2010 model (with only 3K miles) and which was specced the way I wanted it (B&O) plus other options. I have bought four new AMs over the past 12 years. Bottom line was that the net cost of changing to the new car was around 27K more than the net cost of changing to the used model. I was not overly concerned with depreciation (I plan to keep the V12V for at least 3-5 years) and the main issue for me was the mileage on the used car and its condition and history. In the end, I decided that the additional 27K to eliminate the 'used car' risks was not worth it to me, and that getting a 3K used model. highly specced and in excellent condition was the better value proposition. Since getting the car and using it a bit, I am satisfied I made the right call. I agree with others that AM need to look at their marketing and pricing over the short and medium term with their new models since, based on the heavy discounting I have observed on new V12Vs, buying new does not seem to make sense unless you are unconcerned with depreciation/resale value after 2 years and beyond.

[hornbaek]

It important to define what buying "new" really means. For me that is going to the factory and spec your personal choice and wait 8-10 weeks to have it manufactured. A bit like the V12VR guys on the forum did. That experience is worth a premium. How much can be discussed. Buying "new" for me does not constitute buying a car off the dealers forecourt already specced. Despite the fact that it has never been used does not justify any difference in price to a 1 or 2 year old car the forecourt as the V12Vs specs have not changed since it was launched in 2009. The moment you take the dealer spec car off the forecourt it becomes a used car and hence the difference between an earlier car and a more recent car comes down to condition not build year. Just my logic.

[jonby]

drjonV12V said:

I agree with others that AM need to look at their marketing and pricing over the short and medium term with their new models since, based on the heavy discounting I have observed on new V12Vs, buying new does not seem to make sense unless you are unconcerned with depreciation/resale value after 2 years and beyond.

exactly

I think one of the problems is there are several different types of 'new' Aston. In order of price, starting at the top: Customer order & spec, buying one 'in production' in an already determined factory/dealer spec, un-registered never driven at the dealer, registered by the dealer but still new/never driven and then dealer demonstrator. There are also cars built by the factory that the dealers can bid on, sometimes to be delivered unregistered, sometimes from the gaydon foyer and also press/factory driven cars/demonstrators

There will always be a quantity of these types of cars with any brand but it seems more than the industry standard with AM who simply have too many of all these types of cars available (excluding customer order cars of course). There are often no discounts on customer spec cars (though not always - IIRC mikey ordered his V8SR as a factory order but with significant discount ?) but as there are so many of these other types of 'new' car, they of course come with a discount to attract buyers who would otherwise spec from the factory, so it makes it difficult to justify ordering a customer spec car with no discount.

If very few people spec their cars from scratch, the factory produce more and more of these 'other types of new car' as listed above to keep production going, so they are available with bigger discount which means even fewer people spec their car new, and so on. Once a large number of new unregistered/dealer spec/etc cars are sold each month, all with huge discounts, the used cars have to be priced at lower price than the new ones, and again so it goes on...

The only solutions are obviously cutting back supply or increasing demand (either by dropping price, making the cars significantly more desirable or rely on an upturn in the general market). In turn, more existing Aston owners can afford to more frequently upgrade and more non-Aston owners become more comfortable with changing from Porsche/Ferrari/etc to Aston which strengthens demand & prices, which means the factory can produce & sell more cars and ultimately make far more profit.

Providing of course that they have an outright production limit so they don't increase their fixed overheads and become reliant on a temporary production high becoming the norm which leaves them in a pickle - that is one of the big problems - they have never recovered from outsourcing manufacture of Rapide when they thought the factory couldn't cope as it came at the time of all time peak production/demand, early in the product cycle of what are essentially the same cars being sold today.

Rant over ! Apologies to the majority of you if I appear to be teaching you to suck eggs with a basic economics lesson !

[V12woollie]

hornbaek said:

It important to define what buying "new" really means. For me that is going to the factory and spec your personal choice and wait 8-10 weeks to have it manufactured. A bit like the V12VR guys on the forum did. That experience is worth a premium. How much can be discussed. Buying "new" for me does not constitute buying a car off the dealers forecourt already specced. Despite the fact that it has never been used does not justify any difference in price to a 1 or 2 year old car the forecourt as the V12Vs specs have not changed since it was launched in 2009. The moment you take the dealer spec car off the forecourt it becomes a used car and hence the difference between an earlier car and a more recent car comes down to condition not build year. Just my logic.

Strange argument there. As soon as you take delivery of the car you spec and wait eight months for it immediately becomes a used car. A new car is a new car, regardless of waiting for it or taking it out of the showroom as a dealer spec car. The upside for the late buyers is tbey probably paid at least £30K less and in some cases nearer £40K less and as you said, the spec didn't change much so other than Bose, lightweight seats and fast track interiors we have the same mechanical engineering. Some got lucky and ended up with what they would probably have specified anyway.

[AMDBSNick]

mikey k said:

any JLR product for that matter, you were warned!

Mr K. I wouldn't own any other 4x4. When the snow comes I need to get off my drive

Anyway what is this latest obsession with residuals. Frankly if you have to plan your car ownership to this extent why are you buying an Aston Martin. If you want guaranteed residuals go buy a real limited edition that double the number of people want than are produced. Think the "F" word

[DB9VolanteDriver]

V12woollie said:

hornbaek said:

It important to define what buying "new" really means. For me that is going to the factory and spec your personal choice and wait 8-10 weeks to have it manufactured. A bit like the V12VR guys on the forum did. That experience is worth a premium. How much can be discussed. Buying "new" for me does not constitute buying a car off the dealers forecourt already specced. Despite the fact that it has never been used does not justify any difference in price to a 1 or 2 year old car the forecourt as the V12Vs specs have not changed since it was launched in 2009. The moment you take the dealer spec car off the forecourt it becomes a used car and hence the difference between an earlier car and a more recent car comes down to condition not build year. Just my logic.

Strange argument there. As soon as you take delivery of the car you spec and wait eight months for it immediately becomes a used car. A new car is a new car, regardless of waiting for it or taking it out of the showroom as a dealer spec car. The upside for the late buyers is tbey probably paid at least £30K less and in some cases nearer £40K less and as you said, the spec didn't change much so other than Bose, lightweight seats and fast track interiors we have the same mechanical engineering. Some got lucky and ended up with what they would probably have specified anyway.

I understand hornbaek's point completely. Ordering a bespoke car, and all that goes with it, is special and you expect to pay for that. Buying a dealer spec car off the showroom? Might as well buy a used one of the same spec, which, because they are dealer specs, should not be terribly difficult to find.

[V12woollie]

DB9VolanteDriver said:

I understand hornbaek's point completely. Ordering a bespoke car, and all that goes with it, is special and you expect to pay for that. Buying a dealer spec car off the showroom? Might as well buy a used one of the same spec, which, because they are dealer specs, should not be terribly difficult to find.

I don't understand it at all. If you want a non grey car then of course spec your own and pay £30k for the priviledge. I like my Aston in grey and I prefer dark interiors so I'll take my new V12 and the £30k saving.

Bottom line they are both worth the same at the same age and mileage but I'm just £30k better off. To say a dealer spec car with 30 miles on the clock isn't a new car is ridiculous.

[drjonV12V]

hornbaek said:

It important to define what buying "new" really means. For me that is going to the factory and spec your personal choice and wait 8-10 weeks to have it manufactured. A bit like the V12VR guys on the forum did. That experience is worth a premium. How much can be discussed. Buying "new" for me does not constitute buying a car off the dealers forecourt already specced. Despite the fact that it has never been used does not justify any difference in price to a 1 or 2 year old car the forecourt as the V12Vs specs have not changed since it was launched in 2009. The moment you take the dealer spec car off the forecourt it becomes a used car and hence the difference between an earlier car and a more recent car comes down to condition not build year. Just my logic.

I think this is a valid point and for some, getting a brand new, 'untouched' car, and/or having a car exactly tailored and specified by yourself, is worth the evident premium that AML exact for that choice and that aspect of buying and owning an AM - it is a style issue and why Rolex sell a lot of watches. I would say that I was of that school in the past when I bought my new Astons. Maybe older is wiser, but now I am more focused on the value side of things and no longer feel that the price premium of buying a self-specced brand new car is worth it if/when I can find a low mileage used car that meets my criteria and whose net cost to change is some 30K less, and can be driven away immediately. Each to their own poison. But maybe in the buyer's niche that AML and other luxury brands operate, people are looking more and more at value for money, certainly this will be the case the more AML want to ramp up their volumes.

[whoami]

DB9VolanteDriver said:

V12woollie said:

hornbaek said:

It important to define what buying "new" really means. For me that is going to the factory and spec your personal choice and wait 8-10 weeks to have it manufactured. A bit like the V12VR guys on the forum did. That experience is worth a premium. How much can be discussed. Buying "new" for me does not constitute buying a car off the dealers forecourt already specced. Despite the fact that it has never been used does not justify any difference in price to a 1 or 2 year old car the forecourt as the V12Vs specs have not changed since it was launched in 2009. The moment you take the dealer spec car off the forecourt it becomes a used car and hence the difference between an earlier car and a more recent car comes down to condition not build year. Just my logic.

Strange argument there. As soon as you take delivery of the car you spec and wait eight months for it immediately becomes a used car. A new car is a new car, regardless of waiting for it or taking it out of the showroom as a dealer spec car. The upside for the late buyers is tbey probably paid at least £30K less and in some cases nearer £40K less and as you said, the spec didn't change much so other than Bose, lightweight seats and fast track interiors we have the same mechanical engineering. Some got lucky and ended up with what they would probably have specified anyway.

I understand hornbaek's point completely. Ordering a bespoke car, and all that goes with it, is special and you expect to pay for that. Buying a dealer spec car off the showroom? Might as well buy a used one of the same spec, which, because they are dealer specs, should not be terribly difficult to find.

That's fine if you want to lose c£30K for what is ostensibly the same car.

[jonby]

whoami said:

DB9VolanteDriver said:

V12woollie said:

hornbaek said:

It important to define what buying "new" really means. For me that is going to the factory and spec your personal choice and wait 8-10 weeks to have it manufactured. A bit like the V12VR guys on the forum did. That experience is worth a premium. How much can be discussed. Buying "new" for me does not constitute buying a car off the dealers forecourt already specced. Despite the fact that it has never been used does not justify any difference in price to a 1 or 2 year old car the forecourt as the V12Vs specs have not changed since it was launched in 2009. The moment you take the dealer spec car off the forecourt it becomes a used car and hence the difference between an earlier car and a more recent car comes down to condition not build year. Just my logic.

Strange argument there. As soon as you take delivery of the car you spec and wait eight months for it immediately becomes a used car. A new car is a new car, regardless of waiting for it or taking it out of the showroom as a dealer spec car. The upside for the late buyers is tbey probably paid at least £30K less and in some cases nearer £40K less and as you said, the spec didn't change much so other than Bose, lightweight seats and fast track interiors we have the same mechanical engineering. Some got lucky and ended up with what they would probably have specified anyway.

I understand hornbaek's point completely. Ordering a bespoke car, and all that goes with it, is special and you expect to pay for that. Buying a dealer spec car off the showroom? Might as well buy a used one of the same spec, which, because they are dealer specs, should not be terribly difficult to find.

That's fine if you want to lose c£30K for what is ostensibly the same car.

I think all the counter arguments are missing the crux of the original point, which is the suggestion that it;s about how much the premium is worth. Surely no-one will argue it's not worth something, however low ? To each person, the premium that can be justified is different. The bigger the premium, the fewer people can justify it.

[AdamV12V]

DB9VolanteDriver said:

V12woollie said:

hornbaek said:

It important to define what buying "new" really means. For me that is going to the factory and spec your personal choice and wait 8-10 weeks to have it manufactured. A bit like the V12VR guys on the forum did. That experience is worth a premium. How much can be discussed. Buying "new" for me does not constitute buying a car off the dealers forecourt already specced. Despite the fact that it has never been used does not justify any difference in price to a 1 or 2 year old car the forecourt as the V12Vs specs have not changed since it was launched in 2009. The moment you take the dealer spec car off the forecourt it becomes a used car and hence the difference between an earlier car and a more recent car comes down to condition not build year. Just my logic.

Strange argument there. As soon as you take delivery of the car you spec and wait eight months for it immediately becomes a used car. A new car is a new car, regardless of waiting for it or taking it out of the showroom as a dealer spec car. The upside for the late buyers is tbey probably paid at least £30K less and in some cases nearer £40K less and as you said, the spec didn't change much so other than Bose, lightweight seats and fast track interiors we have the same mechanical engineering. Some got lucky and ended up with what they would probably have specified anyway.

I understand hornbaek's point completely. Ordering a bespoke car, and all that goes with it, is special and you expect to pay for that. Buying a dealer spec car off the showroom? Might as well buy a used one of the same spec, which, because they are dealer specs, should not be terribly difficult to find.

I understand it too - I've been there and done that also. It is a VERY special part of the equation of ordering a "new" car and a part I have thoroughly enjoyed, however you do pay through the nose for it, something I have also been there and done!

Unfortunately AM's production policy as already discussed makes this a VERY expensive option right now, and I think it is an experience that is best saved for the more prosperous times when the inevitable discounts and following depreciation aren't quite as painful as they have been since the world/UK economy fell apart.

My V8V and 1st V12V were both dealer spec cars that hit 95% of my wish list but I was still left with that little niggle of "I've just spent c£100k on a car and it's not really 100%" that you just don't get with the bespoke order situation. That said I was phonemonially lucky with my current V12V. I really wanted MFWhite and loved the idea of a red/black interior, however I had several other "spec ideal" options, and when I went to see the car it was 100.00% perfect dream bespoke spec, hence I snapped it up (well that and an amazing deal from JCT600).

I will take a fair bit of prizing out of my current car, but a similar "dealer spec V12VS" might just do that for me. I have a good relationship with my dealership and I have of course already let them know exactly what spec car I will bite their hand off for around 12mths from now! You don't get if you don't ask

[ripley500]

GRBF430F1 said:

As I'm only looking to go into one as a 2 year stop gap until i buy something "special" depreciation or minimalising it is a high priority. I am used to losing £10k pa but with the buying /selling premium of changing as well I don't want it to become £30k over 2 years

n

Simple then, go for a low prices second hand (sorry per owned) example as IMHO the looks and the engine make this car and a used one has the same looks and engine as a new one. Most used ones I looked at we're almost like new anyway. This will ensure you lose least money and its such a desirable car that when you sell in two years there will be a whole new market of potential purchasers opened up as the car will be at a price level to attract more buyers who couldn't or wouldn't stretch to the current prices.

The clutch also should be very light. One of the nicest things about the v12v is how easy it is to drive. It has a lighter clutch than my old 4.3

[whoami]

AdamV12V said:

I understand it too - I've been there and done that also. It is a VERY special part of the equation of ordering a "new" car and a part I have thoroughly enjoyed, however you do pay through the nose for it, something I have also been there and done!

Unfortunately AM's production policy as already discussed makes this a VERY expensive option right now, and I think it is an experience that is best saved for the more prosperous times when the inevitable discounts and following depreciation aren't quite as painful as they have been since the world/UK economy fell apart.

My V8V and 1st V12V were both dealer spec cars that hit 95% of my wish list but I was still left with that little niggle of "I've just spent c£100k on a car and it's not really 100%" that you just don't get with the bespoke order situation. That said I was phonemonially lucky with my current V12V. I really wanted MFWhite and loved the idea of a red/black interior, however I had several other "spec ideal" options, and when I went to see the car it was 100.00% perfect dream bespoke spec, hence I snapped it up (well that and an amazing deal from JCT600).

I will take a fair bit of prizing out of my current car, but a similar "dealer spec V12VS" might just do that for me. I have a good relationship with my dealership and I have of course already let them know exactly what spec car I will bite their hand off for around 12mths from now! You don't get if you don't ask

Your post is contradictory.

On the one hand you advocate going the "full fat" specifying everything and paying a massive premium for the privilege route. On the other, you are quite happy to buy a dealer spec car (with your current V12 and also with a hypothetical V12 S) and enjoy the discount that route offers.

Horses for course, surely?

[AdamV12V]

whoami said:

Your post is contradictory.

On the one hand you advocate going the "full fat" specifying everything and paying a massive premium for the privilege route. On the other, you are quite happy to buy a dealer spec car (with your current V12 and also with a hypothetical V12 S) and enjoy the discount that route offers.

Horses for course, surely?

No, sorry if it came across that way. I was just trying to say that I have been there and done both options and both have a great deal of merit. Right now I'm in the camp of buying dealer spec cars because the depreciation is too steep to spec your own car, but then I am sure there are loads of people far richer than I am where another £20-30K just isn't a big deal and in that case its worth every penny to get it perfect as the feeling is magical. Hats off to those people!

In good times the depreciation isn't as steep so its easier to make the jump to bespoke spec. I was just damn lucky this time round.

ripley500 said:

The clutch also should be very light. One of the nicest things about the v12v is how easy it is to drive. It has a lighter clutch than my old 4.3

+1, and lighter than the 4.7 V8V too!

[whoami]

AdamV12V said:

whoami said:

Your post is contradictory.

On the one hand you advocate going the "full fat" specifying everything and paying a massive premium for the privilege route. On the other, you are quite happy to buy a dealer spec car (with your current V12 and also with a hypothetical V12 S) and enjoy the discount that route offers.

Horses for course, surely?

No, sorry if it came across that way. I was just trying to say that I have been there and done both options and both have a great deal of merit. Right now I'm in the camp of buying dealer spec cars because the depreciation is too steep to spec your own car, but then I am sure there are loads of people far richer than I am where another £20-30K just isn't a big deal and in that case its worth every penny to get it perfect as the feeling is magical. Hats off to those people!

In good times the depreciation isn't as steep so its easier to make the jump to bespoke spec. I was just damn lucky this time round.

ripley500 said:

The clutch also should be very light. One of the nicest things about the v12v is how easy it is to drive. It has a lighter clutch than my old 4.3

+1, and lighter than the 4.7 V8V too!

Sorry Adam, comprehension failure on my part.

[Grant3]

There is no doubting that buyers have become much more adverse to depreciation during this recession and this thread ( in the main) reflects that, to compound the problem used prices have also come under pressure. It is nice to have exactly what you want when buying a car, and also to enjoy the full build process, but although I understand that I'm with those that accept a small compromise and save £30k+, do that a few times over the years and you eventually end up with the equivalent of a free car!!

Aston are getting better at spreading production around the world and Investindustrial will help improve the spread IMO, but UK over supply is still too high and this is making the already steep high end GT depreciation worse and affecting new sales IMO, particularly now the likes of the Vanquish are specced to the £200k mark. Fingers crossed that demand starts increasing as recession lifts and A.M do continue improving the production worldwide.

Meanwhile we are all lucky to own and enjoy one of these very special cars despite the worlds financial woes, time to drink in those lines, luxuriate in the interior and then fire-up and roar off down a favourite B road.............

[outofstepuk]

Grant3 said:

you eventually end up with the equivalent of a free car!!

now that's some man maths

[Grant3]

outofstepuk said:

now that's some man maths

.. Just playing devils advocate.. but if you take two Aston fans who buy new and change their car every two years, one buys at full list and specs direct with the factory, one buys a little later and compromises on spec slightly buying new pre-specified at a discount ..4 changes over 8 years = a saving equivalent to a nice new Aston
Of course if Aston limit supply and demand picks up and we get back to people paying overs for the latest model all changes again, and clearly buying used will save even more.... as will avoiding the whole high end sports car market all together and buying a cheap run around, so as ever it is case of degrees, personal circumstances and priorities..

[drjonV12V]

Grant3 said:

.. Just playing devils advocate.. but if you take two Aston fans who buy new and change their car every two years, one buys at full list and specs direct with the factory, one buys a little later and compromises on spec slightly buying new pre-specified at a discount ..4 changes over 8 years = a saving equivalent to a nice new Aston
Of course if Aston limit supply and demand picks up and we get back to people paying overs for the latest model all changes again, and clearly buying used will save even more.... as will avoiding the whole high end sports car market all together and buying a cheap run around, so as ever it is case of degrees, personal circumstances and priorities..

If everyone decides that the value proposition is to only buy pre-owned cars, eventually AML will be unable to sell any more new cars, AML will mothball the factory, later the price of used AMs will start to rise in value, until AML realise that making new ones is profitable again, and so the circle is closed and we start again. Yes, I know, highly improbable but a nice fantasy scenario nonetheless. Since the launch of the DB7 Vantage V12, AML have been on a mission to make more cars per annum (no doubt influenced by Ford at the outset), but if you produce more cars you have to sell more, and the dealers are heavily incentivised to shift cars and rewarded when they do (hence the discounting we see more and more). even if their margin on a particular car is small - the incentives, if and when they kick in, make up for that later. Ultimately, AML cannot make too many cars, one of the strongest attributies of the AM marque is exclusivity and what it says about those who own them. AML have got to reassess their marketing and where they want to be in the market in the future, and inevitably they may have to cut back on volume for some models. In the meantime, I personally feel, as I said before, that value-wise, buying pre-owned makes sense to me for now.