F-Type: Well, Now I've Seen Everything...

[john ryan]

Morgan buy their engines in, so hardly a fair comparison. In comparison with BMW, Audi and Daimler Benz, JLR (particularly the Jaguar bit)are without doubt a small volume business in a very competitive market place. I've no doubt this is a stop-gap solution whilst they concentrate efforts on the new engine family.

[Greenslade]

Wasn't the XJ220 engine a V8 with 2 cylinders lopped off ? Nothing new going on then really. Maybe they will go one step further and bring out an economy V4.

[V8Driver]

Just spoke to a friend in development at Jag HQ, 'that was a prototype, they've changed it to a proper V6 now', was his response pretty much word for word.

[michael gould]

Let's face it ....nobody wants to go to the school reunion and have to admit they drive a Jag ! It's almost as bad as asking for a pint of larger with a black current top

[mikey k]

Little Donkey said:

I wonder what else has been "value engineered"?

Oh quiet a bit
There is A LOT of "sharing" in the JLR group

[George29]

michael gould said:

Let's face it ....nobody wants to go to the school reunion and have to admit they drive a Jag ! It's almost as bad as asking for a pint of larger with a black current top

I imagine, since you're from Liverpool, that most at your reunion will ask for White Lightning etc?

[DB9VolanteDriver]

Greenslade said:

Wasn't the XJ220 engine a V8 with 2 cylinders lopped off ? Nothing new going on then really. Maybe they will go one step further and bring out an economy V4.

Lopping 2 cylinders off a V8 is fine, but NOT lopping the cylinders off as in the Jag V6 isn't. See here...

Edited by DB9VolanteDriver on Tuesday 3rd December 14:39

[pb1695]

Aston Martin uses a version of the Jaguar AJ-V8 for the V8 Vantage.

So not only is the heart of the V8V a Jag, it benefits from Ford switches, Volvo (now Garmin aftermarket) Sat nav, partly owned by Italians, and soon to be taken over by Germans (or others) - http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f72def94-ddad-11e2-892b-...

I love Astons - I Love Jags, the ultimate ownership of them does not worry me, however I think Jaguar are currently on a winning streak and are doing this from a British base. Unfortunately, Aston appearing to be going nowhere and key components and engineering will continue to be made overseas.

Back on topic, the V6 engine is a stunning piece of kit (I personally prefer the V8 though), and the engineering solution used which involves sharing the block is intelligent, for a relatively low volume manufacturer, and is an elegant and cost effective way of expanding the engine line up. In terms of the weight penalty, it is very little compared to having a unique V6 block, as the block is aluminium. The difference in weight between the base V6 and the V8 S is 68KG of which much is accounted for by the additional equipment as well as extra cylinders etc. I have not found a source for the weight of the V6, the V8 is around 200KG.

For comparison, a 991 911 S Convertible is around 100KG lighter than a V6 Jag - excellent achievement - the Aston V8V Convertible is however around 110KG heavier and the Audi R8 V8 Spyder is 63 kg heavier than the F - the benefit of 4wd.

If anyone from Jaguar is looking at this forum, cheques for my excellent PR work will be readily accepted!

[mikey k]

pb1695 said:

Aston Martin uses a version of the Jaguar AJ-V8 for the V8 Vantage.

So not only is the heart of the V8V a Jag, it benefits from Ford switches, Volvo (now Garmin aftermarket) Sat nav, partly owned by Italians, and soon to be taken over by Germans (or others) - http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f72def94-ddad-11e2-892b-...

Some fact and some fiction

[jonby]

pb1695 said:

Back on topic, the V6 engine is a stunning piece of kit (I personally prefer the V8 though), and the engineering solution used which involves sharing the block is intelligent, for a relatively low volume manufacturer, and is an elegant and cost effective way of expanding the engine line up. In terms of the weight penalty, it is very little compared to having a unique V6 block, as the block is aluminium. The difference in weight between the base V6 and the V8 S is 68KG of which much is accounted for by the additional equipment as well as extra cylinders etc. I have not found a source for the weight of the V6, the V8 is around 200KG.

For comparison, a 991 911 S Convertible is around 100KG lighter than a V6 Jag - excellent achievement - the Aston V8V Convertible is however around 110KG heavier and the Audi R8 V8 Spyder is 63 kg heavier than the F - the benefit of 4wd.

With respect, patently a V8 Aston 2 seater is likely to be heavier than a V6 Jag 2 seater

But the V8 Jag F type is not lighter than the Aston V8 vantage - I appreciate power outputs make the V6 Jag a more likely car to compare of course

Considering how wonderful this 'new' Jag is and how Aston are slated for their 'old' chassis tech, I think Aston do pretty well in this weight comparison. Especially bearing in mind how much more interior plastic than metal the Jag has compared to the Aston. Add the fact we are comparing a model at the beginning of it's life cycle to one near the end and the comparison is even more favourable for the Aston

Of course in reality, both are far heavier than ideal as it happens. But the Aston gets stick for it and the Jag doesn't - to me it should be the other way round

[pb1695]

mikey k said:

Some fact and some fiction

I like to think of it as tongue in cheek embellishment!

[mikey k]

jonby said:

Considering how wonderful this 'new' Jag is and how Aston are slated for their 'old' chassis tech, I think Aston do pretty well in this weight comparison.

Ironically Aston (lotus) technology is still cutting edge even after 8 years, JLR have only recently started using similar technology on the latest models (this DOES NOT include the F type )

[jonby]

I've just double checked - Jag F type (base V6) coupe is 1597kg and 1614kg for the V6S coupe according to their website. Aston V8 coupe is 1630kg or 1610kg in S/SP8 form

So in fact, Aston isn't really heavier than the Jag even comparing V8 to V6

Roadster options add weight to the Aston but apparently, not to the Jag

[downr]

pb1695 said:

mikey k said:

Some fact and some fiction

I like to think of it as tongue in cheek embellishment!

Can I suggest you do a tour of the Jaguar plant and see how many components are shipped in from overseas? Its an eye-opener

[jonby]

mikey k said:

jonby said:

Considering how wonderful this 'new' Jag is and how Aston are slated for their 'old' chassis tech, I think Aston do pretty well in this weight comparison.

Ironically Aston (lotus) technology is still cutting edge even after 8 years, JLR have only recently started using similar technology on the latest models (this DOES NOT include the F type )

As with so many things Aston, it's how they market rather than what they market that creates -ve issues for themselves.

[George29]

jonby said:

So in fact, Aston isn't really heavier than the Jag even comparing V8 to V6

What's more impressive is the V12VS is nearly as light as the V6 Jag.

[mikey k]

pb1695 said:

mikey k said:

Some fact and some fiction

I like to think of it as tongue in cheek embellishment!

having checked your profile me thinks you have a vested interest as an owner of 3 jags including an F type

[jonby]

George29 said:

jonby said:

So in fact, Aston isn't really heavier than the Jag even comparing V8 to V6

What's more impressive is the V12VS is nearly as light as the V6 Jag.

Yep - I think the F type could actually techwise, on paper, date quite quickly, when new Astons, the new (much cheaper) merc sports flagship, BMW i8, etc all come out. I accept of course that's not the same as sales, desirability, etc

[pb1695]

The F type Convertible is 1597 KG, V6S 1614KG and the V8 S is 1665 KG. The Aston V8 Roadster is 1690 KG, the V12 Roadster is 1760 KG, the V12S Coupe is estimated to be 1665KG.

Whilst the overall weight has an impact on performance and handling, it is too easy to get hung up on this as the single biggest factor. The placement of the weight is equally if not more important.

With regards the parts and where they come from, I have been to the factory and as with just about every other manufacturer, most components are shipped in and bought from specialist suppliers, often overseas. The point I was making about the manufacture was related to what I think of as a key component to the car, it's engine, and also the country in which it is designed and engineered.

I agree that the Aston is now an old design, and I really look forward to seeing what new cars are launched over the coming years, and sincerely hope that they survive and prosper with a British design and engineering base.

[pb1695]

mikey k said:

having checked your profile me thinks you have a vested interest as an owner of 3 jags including an F type

Indeed we have 3 on the fleet. We did have a V8V Roadster a few yers back, and currently have a Vanquish. I really am not knocking the Aston but just making the point that the V6 design is pragmatic and quite sensible, and the weight penalty of sharing the block is not so significant.

In terms of the cars we run, they are chosen based on likely popularity, potential return on investment and an element of my own personal bias! So yes, I do have a bit of a vested interest.