ASM2 Gearbox Failure

[hashluck]

SFO said:

robgt said:

However I understand that if you are speccing a new V8S with sports pac you will be asked if you would like a transmission oil cooler!!

Any idea where this has come from? I have a V8VS on order and no mention of this to me

[DB9VolanteDriver]

mikey k said:

Interestingly, getting my hands on the failed part and having a close look at it last week it was definitely a fault in the manufacturing of the gear. You can clearly see where flakes have progressively come off just one face of one tooth. No other signs on any other teeth.

Once again thanks for the support Gaydon

So then, not a result of the missing oil cooler it would appear, although its lack may have hastened the failure. But would have still failed even with a cooler.

[mikey k]

Yep primarily a material defect but the oil has degraded through overheating

[MollyGTi]

How much longer Mikey? We need you back on the road and bonding with your car before our great Alpine adventure!

Hope you are going to set aside some time on 28th June to introduce Johnny to the Welsh Weekenders

[mikey k]

MollyGTi said:

How much longer Mikey? We need you back on the road and bonding with your car before our great Alpine adventure!

Hope you are going to set aside some time on 28th June to introduce Johnny to the Welsh Weekenders

Parts should be with BR in the next week or so
Keeping options open for that weekend at the moment as I may still be getting sorted by then

[mikey k]

Parts are allegedly "in transit"
So Bamford Rose can so crack on with finishing Johnny off!

[CatalystV12V]

[mikey k]

Bit of an update
We have now sorted this problem, added extra oil injection and a speed controlled pump with the ASM1 radiator reinstated.
We also shot peened and polished the gearbox internals
The combination of this work has dropped the oil temperature by upto 50C to ~80C
Thanks to Ian at Gaydon for his intervention and excellent customer focus on a failure like this after 13k miles and 12 months

[yeti]

mikey k said:

Thanks to Ian at Gaydon for his intervention and excellent customer focus on a failure like this after 13k miles and 12 months

People might not get the sarcasm here Mikey. Pathetic behaviour from AM themselves.

[mikey k]

yeti said:

mikey k said:

Thanks to Ian at Gaydon for his intervention and excellent customer focus on a failure like this after 13k miles and 12 months

People might not get the sarcasm here Mikey. Pathetic behaviour from AM themselves.

Maybe this will make it clear!

Johnny went in to BR as a completely stock MY12 Vantage S roadster that had done 13k miles in ~14 months. It had been serviced at an AM dealer at one year old. I had noticed a noise from what I assumed was the diff when it was cold.

We agreed it may be prudent to reinstate the external oil cooler AM removed in going to ASM3 (also missing on V12VS). We had hoped to simply remove some blanking plugs and connect up the removed parts. No! Aston has wasted the money they saved in removing the cooler by recasting the casing with out the holes! So we had to split it to drill them back out

So when BR split the gearbox to do this they found it was already too late. it was full of dark smelly overheated oil. Like this;

20140520_074520 by mikey k V8VR, on Flickr

20140520_074524 by mikey k V8VR, on Flickr

20140520_074544 by mikey k V8VR, on Flickr

That may have been recoverable until debris was found in the casing and on the magnet, it was traced to the pinion having worn a chunk out of it

20140520_074133 by mikey k V8VR, on Flickr

So that now required a gearbox rebuild/replacement
A quick call to a contact in Customer Support at Gaydon confirmed our fears, the box is a sealed unit from the supplier and AM would not replace it as it had been opened. Pretty poor support but they are with in their rights I'd have accepted a used one or even used parts as a gesture of good will.
Time to look at alternatives, BR managed to work out the required part numbers and approached the gearbox manufacturer direct. After a bit of clarification we sat back for the 10 week lead time to run. That passed with out any contact, we followed up only to be told a very senior engineer at AM Gaydon had personally told them they cannot supply the parts to me and especially not BR
More excellent customer support from AM Gaydon
Back to square one, there was no way this was going to beat me!
A few weeks later suitable parts were sourced through another route. Timing was tight but having seen the quality of the casting and machining inside the gearbox I decide to have ALL the internals shot peened and polished. The aim of this was to make the box more efficient, improve oil coverage and keep it cooler.
As you can see from these pictures there is a MASSIVE improvement

20140619_082239 by mikey k V8VR, on Flickr

20140624_173914 by mikey k V8VR, on Flickr

20140624_173938 by mikey k V8VR, on Flickr

On top of this Adrian redesigned the oil circuit, it now forces oil down the internal of the hollow shafts, sprays it on to the gears rather than relying on gravity and recirculates it via a speed controlled pump (no over cooling!) that is on anti vibration mounts through the oil cooler that was deleted by Aston. We stuck some temperature indicators on either side so it effectiveness can be checked at a glance.

It seems a shame to hide such a work of art away in a box full of oil

20140619_082649 by mikey k V8VR, on Flickr

20140624_173009 by mikey k V8VR, on Flickr

20140624_173101 by mikey k V8VR, on Flickr

There will be more to come on this!

Edited by mikey k on Thursday 3rd July 12:18

[yeti]

mikey k said:

only to be told a very senior engineer at AM Gaydon had personally told them they cannot supply the parts to me and especially not BR

Great post Mikey - I would like more people to know about the petty and belligerant nature of the AM engineer in this matter, for all the bluster in the press and the whole corporate bull package they dish out. Personally I believe they were well within their rights to not supply parts or warranty after the gearbox had been opened as would most marques, but to contact the manufacturer and block you obtaining replacement parts, effectively writing your car off, is disgusting.

Looks great, no wonder it feels so good

[mikey k]

yeti said:

mikey k said:

only to be told a very senior engineer at AM Gaydon had personally told them they cannot supply the parts to me and especially not BR

Great post Mikey - I would like more people to know about the petty and belligerant nature of the AM engineer in this matter, for all the bluster in the press and the whole corporate bull package they dish out. Personally I believe they were well within their rights to not supply parts or warranty after the gearbox had been opened as would most marques, but to contact the manufacturer and block you obtaining replacement parts, effectively writing your car off, is disgusting.

in their position in our business I have offered clients a compromise that all are happy with. AM didn't even bother opening the dialogue or thinking about it.
I've just this morning heard of another example of this happening.
AM need a culture change if they really want to retain loyal customers.
I love the car and the brand, what I hate is the apathetic tunnel vision that seems to have invaded all levels of the people that work for them Sad

I was very keen on finding out when the V12VS roadster is likely to appear so I could get an order in, sure as hell ain't happening now! And I'm not sure I want and Aston with AMG DNA it goes against my picture of Astons being "Brutes in Suits"

[Impasse]

I can't see Gaydon's approach being much different to any other manufacturer's outlook on situations like this. It seems a bit daft to single them out as though it was a personal affront to an individual.

However, I'm pleased you're pleased with the eventual result and hopefully you'll now be able to use the car without worry.

[avinalarf]

Impasse said:

I can't see Gaydon's approach being much different to any other manufacturer's outlook on situations like this. It seems a bit daft to single them out as though it was a personal affront to an individual.

However, I'm pleased you're pleased with the eventual result and hopefully you'll now be able to use the car without worry.

By your comment I conclude there is something I am missing here.
A chap has a serious problem with his car and Gaydon choose to not offer any help or advice !
Indeed they appear to be particularly obstructive in assisting Mikey to get the problem fixed.
If I was Mikey I might well leave that Brand,had I been so treated.
However,I do love your Avatar.

[mikey k]

Impasse said:

I can't see Gaydon's approach being much different to any other manufacturer's outlook on situations like this. It seems a bit daft to single them out as though it was a personal affront to an individual.

However, I'm pleased you're pleased with the eventual result and hopefully you'll now be able to use the car without worry.

I understand their stance I have been in a similar situation with our business, difference being we have reached a compromise to retain a customer.
Singling out implies other companies were able to sort this out - obviously not the case
I don't consider it a personal affront, more an idiotic frustration, though it seems one senior individual at the factory does
I've bought two cars from them and was ready for a third - not now.

[Neil1300r]

Impasse said:

I can't see Gaydon's approach being much different to any other manufacturer's outlook on situations like this. It seems a bit daft to single them out as though it was a personal affront to an individual.

Telling the gearbox manufacturer NOT to sell BR / Mikey the parts just shows AM to be idiots who have completely lostt touch with reality and their customer base.

Not how I would treat my customers, there is always a compromise position especially when brand loyalty should be high up on the agenda. It would have cost AM nothing for the gearbox manufacturer to sell Mikey the parts, all they've now achieved is negative publicity.

[Impasse]

avinalarf said:

By your comment I conclude there is something I am missing here.
A chap has a serious problem with his car and Gaydon choose to not offer any help or advice !
Indeed they appear to be particularly obstructive in assisting Mikey to get the problem fixed.
If I was Mikey I might well leave that Brand,had I been so treated.

Look at it from Gaydon's point of view. A customer has a problem with their gearbox (bear in mind the power output of their engine has been uprated). Instead of leaving it to their group of franchised repair centres, it was taken to an independent outfit whereby the box was removed and partially dismantled for investigation. The owner was aware this would invalidate any warranty offered by the factory.

So now the box is away from any of Gaydon's control and they no longer have any financial interest in it. Also, it could turn out to be a litigious minefield for them as it's now a complete unknown if they did get involved. If the box had been left within the franchise network it would have eventually been replaced as a complete unit under warranty and for the owner, this would have been the most cost effective way of solving the initial problem

Sure, there would have been no pleasant side effects of the upgrades that have been carried out on the various components, but these are a luxury to the owner and aren't deemed necessary for every other production AM using that box.

[Impasse]

Neil1300r said:

Telling the gearbox manufacturer NOT to sell BR / Mikey the parts just shows AM to be idiots who have completely lostt touch with reality and their customer base.

Not how I would treat my customers, there is always a compromise position especially when brand loyalty should be high up on the agenda. It would have cost AM nothing for the gearbox manufacturer to sell Mikey the parts, all they've now achieved is negative publicity.

No it's not, it's protecting their own financial interests. As for brand loyalty, that particular pleasantry was discarded when the car was dismantled by an independent so can't be used as an argument here. Loyalty is a two way street.

[avinalarf]

Impasse said:

Look at it from Gaydon's point of view. A customer has a problem with their gearbox (bear in mind the power output of their engine has been uprated). Instead of leaving it to their group of franchised repair centres, it was taken to an independent outfit whereby the box was removed and partially dismantled for investigation. The owner was aware this would invalidate any warranty offered by the factory.

So now the box is away from any of Gaydon's control and they no longer have any financial interest in it. Also, it could turn out to be a litigious minefield for them as it's now a complete unknown if they did get involved. If the box had been left within the franchise network it would have eventually been replaced as a complete unit under warranty and for the owner, this would have been the most cost effective way of solving the initial problem

Sure, there would have been no pleasant side effects of the upgrades that have been carried out on the various components, but these are a luxury to the owner and aren't deemed necessary for every other production AM using that box.

I can now understand your argument .
I was unaware the engine had been uprated prior to the problem.
Notwithstanding the above, Gaydon might have taken a more sympathetic and helpful approach to helping a loyal customer out of his predicament.
It is very short sighted and non productive,especially nowadays in the internet age,to blank a good customer.
It is the manner in which Gaydon approached the problem that,for me,is unprofessional .
As for his choosing to go to an indie,well,many of my prospective customers do not purchase ALL their gear from my stores but that doesn't mean I don't treat them with respect and try to be as helpful as possible,so there !

Edited by avinalarf on Thursday 3rd July 14:08

Edited by avinalarf on Thursday 3rd July 14:09

[Neil1300r]

Impasse said:

Neil1300r said:

Telling the gearbox manufacturer NOT to sell BR / Mikey the parts just shows AM to be idiots who have completely lostt touch with reality and their customer base.

Not how I would treat my customers, there is always a compromise position especially when brand loyalty should be high up on the agenda. It would have cost AM nothing for the gearbox manufacturer to sell Mikey the parts, all they've now achieved is negative publicity.

No it's not, it's protecting their own financial interests. As for brand loyalty, that particular pleasantry was discarded when the car was dismantled by an independent so can't be used as an argument here. Loyalty is a two way street.

Are you deliberately not reading what Mike posted and others have re-iterated or are you just trolling? We all get AM not paying for a replacement, but stopping Mike buying from the gearbox manufacturer replacement parts? Really you cannot see what is wrong with that? Especially as the manufacturer had accepted an order, AM found out and got them to stop.

Re customer loyalty, Mikey didn't buy another manufactuers car, he got some upgades and probably would have bought another AM. AM don't offer performance upgrades.