ASM2 Gearbox Failure
Discussion
peterr96 said:
That's really crap Mikey. I thought these graziano gearboxes were supposed to be fairly bomb proof. Can it really be a function of ASM that has caused premature failure.
In terms of the accusation of cost cutting, given the 'box is a bought in unit that hardly seems likely does it?
They seem to be in the races, only being rebuilt when the engine is rebuilt, but then they retain the external oil cooler In terms of the accusation of cost cutting, given the 'box is a bought in unit that hardly seems likely does it?
MollyGTi said:
peterr96 said:
In terms of the accusation of cost cutting, given the 'box is a bought in unit that hardly seems likely does it?
ASM1 had a cooler matrix but ASM2 did not but they have seen that it is a necessary feature and reintroduced it for ASM3SFO said:
did you consider sending the metal fragments and dirty oil to AM for their opinion/advice before opening the gear box?
It was offered in the first communication to Gaydon, they didn't take it up as they buy the box as a sealed unit from Graziano.I expect they have a back to back warranty on them with Graziano so take no risk or responsibility.
A bit short sighted IMHO.
This may seem a bit off , considering my past with BR.....but during testing of the engine how much stress was put onto the gearbox....could this have weakened it in some way?....I only ask because the car from Mikey's trips and documented pictures on here seem to show no problems with the gearbox.....up to a certain point.....
Just a thought .....and I,m sure is miles off the cause....and am in no way insinuating anything..which some might think....
Glad I have a manual.......
Just a thought .....and I,m sure is miles off the cause....and am in no way insinuating anything..which some might think....
Glad I have a manual.......
Really sorry to read about this Mikey - at least it was picked up before it ate itself. It's not entirely surprising the response from the factory - but they would be wise to reconsider.
New buyers are at a premium for AM at the moment and given you've taken the plunge more than once, I'd expect some loyalty and support in return. Hopefully remediating it wont be too painful and perhaps someone from AM will see sense and at least discuss the issue and review the info / pictures.
New buyers are at a premium for AM at the moment and given you've taken the plunge more than once, I'd expect some loyalty and support in return. Hopefully remediating it wont be too painful and perhaps someone from AM will see sense and at least discuss the issue and review the info / pictures.
Let me get this straight and confront the elephant in the room.
You buy a perfectly good V8VRS but are not happy with the performance so you take it so some independent "specialist" to upgrade and tweak the engine for more power/torque? Why? If you wanted more just buy a V12V! Presumably the car is in warranty? Why would you risk invalidating it?
That work is carried out and you drive the car sedately for 100 miles? Yeah of course you did! The first thing most people would do is say right let's see what difference that made...VROOMMMM
Not happy with the engine work you want more tweaks and upgrades. At that point you find the dark oil and the debris on the magnetic plug? I can imagine what you thought then GULP!
The decision to split the gearbox was absolutely epic! Now you are trying to say AM is at fault for buying substandard gearboxes due to cost restrictions? That really does take the biscuit! I'm not surprised they told you where to go!
Lessons for me here are:
Buy an Aston that I am happy with and don't have to upgrade/tweak
Don't use a so called specialist independent to do any work on my Aston
Only have work done on my P&J by AMW
I feel sorry you pal but I do feel if you had left things well alone and not gone for a few extra BHP/torques then the bill would be at AM's door not yours! That's assuming the gearboxes are faulty, which I very much doubt and not caused by your/BR's tinkering.
Overriding question is WHY?
You buy a perfectly good V8VRS but are not happy with the performance so you take it so some independent "specialist" to upgrade and tweak the engine for more power/torque? Why? If you wanted more just buy a V12V! Presumably the car is in warranty? Why would you risk invalidating it?
That work is carried out and you drive the car sedately for 100 miles? Yeah of course you did! The first thing most people would do is say right let's see what difference that made...VROOMMMM
Not happy with the engine work you want more tweaks and upgrades. At that point you find the dark oil and the debris on the magnetic plug? I can imagine what you thought then GULP!
The decision to split the gearbox was absolutely epic! Now you are trying to say AM is at fault for buying substandard gearboxes due to cost restrictions? That really does take the biscuit! I'm not surprised they told you where to go!
Lessons for me here are:
Buy an Aston that I am happy with and don't have to upgrade/tweak
Don't use a so called specialist independent to do any work on my Aston
Only have work done on my P&J by AMW
I feel sorry you pal but I do feel if you had left things well alone and not gone for a few extra BHP/torques then the bill would be at AM's door not yours! That's assuming the gearboxes are faulty, which I very much doubt and not caused by your/BR's tinkering.
Overriding question is WHY?
Jon39 said:
Sorry to read about this calamity Mike.
In photograph 1, we can see a chunk missing. The missing metal reveals a powder type surface. GKN have a division that makes metal from powder. I have often wondered how strong that could be.
My limited understanding, is that the ASM gearboxes are automated gear change versions of the manual box. I know the later ones have more gears. Therefore could the same damage that you have shown in your photographs, also occur to a manual gearbox?
The gearbox in my V12V had the same "whine" (as Mikey's) from new.In photograph 1, we can see a chunk missing. The missing metal reveals a powder type surface. GKN have a division that makes metal from powder. I have often wondered how strong that could be.
My limited understanding, is that the ASM gearboxes are automated gear change versions of the manual box. I know the later ones have more gears. Therefore could the same damage that you have shown in your photographs, also occur to a manual gearbox?
Edited by Jon39 on Friday 7th March 18:42
I pointed it out to the dealer on several occasions.
To cut a long story short, after a lot of hassle and perseverance on my part, they eventually changed the gearbox (it had done c200 miles when I first highlighted the problem).
Who knows whether it would have been okay in the long run, or caused problems when the mileage built up.
Having seen the damage to Mikey's, I'm very glad I insisted on a replacement.
I hope that AML reconsider their position on your warranty claim Mikey.
FrankieV8VSP10 said:
Let me get this straight and confront the elephant in the room.
You buy a perfectly good V8VRS but are not happy with the performance so you take it so some independent "specialist" to upgrade and tweak the engine for more power/torque? Why? If you wanted more just buy a V12V! Presumably the car is in warranty? Why would you risk invalidating it?
That work is carried out and you drive the car sedately for 100 miles? Yeah of course you did! The first thing most people would do is say right let's see what difference that made...VROOMMMM
Not happy with the engine work you want more tweaks and upgrades. At that point you find the dark oil and the debris on the magnetic plug? I can imagine what you thought then GULP!
The decision to split the gearbox was absolutely epic! Now you are trying to say AM is at fault for buying substandard gearboxes due to cost restrictions? That really does take the biscuit! I'm not surprised they told you where to go!
Lessons for me here are:
Buy an Aston that I am happy with and don't have to upgrade/tweak
Don't use a so called specialist independent to do any work on my Aston
Only have work done on my P&J by AMW
I feel sorry you pal but I do feel if you had left things well alone and not gone for a few extra BHP/torques then the bill would be at AM's door not yours! That's assuming the gearboxes are faulty, which I very much doubt and not caused by your/BR's tinkering.
Overriding question is WHY?
I do believe this hits the nail on the head.You buy a perfectly good V8VRS but are not happy with the performance so you take it so some independent "specialist" to upgrade and tweak the engine for more power/torque? Why? If you wanted more just buy a V12V! Presumably the car is in warranty? Why would you risk invalidating it?
That work is carried out and you drive the car sedately for 100 miles? Yeah of course you did! The first thing most people would do is say right let's see what difference that made...VROOMMMM
Not happy with the engine work you want more tweaks and upgrades. At that point you find the dark oil and the debris on the magnetic plug? I can imagine what you thought then GULP!
The decision to split the gearbox was absolutely epic! Now you are trying to say AM is at fault for buying substandard gearboxes due to cost restrictions? That really does take the biscuit! I'm not surprised they told you where to go!
Lessons for me here are:
Buy an Aston that I am happy with and don't have to upgrade/tweak
Don't use a so called specialist independent to do any work on my Aston
Only have work done on my P&J by AMW
I feel sorry you pal but I do feel if you had left things well alone and not gone for a few extra BHP/torques then the bill would be at AM's door not yours! That's assuming the gearboxes are faulty, which I very much doubt and not caused by your/BR's tinkering.
Overriding question is WHY?
FrankieV8VSP10 said:
Let me get this straight and confront the elephant in the room.
You buy a perfectly good V8VRS but are not happy with the performance so you take it so some independent "specialist" to upgrade and tweak the engine for more power/torque? Why? If you wanted more just buy a V12V! Presumably the car is in warranty? Why would you risk invalidating it?
That work is carried out and you drive the car sedately for 100 miles? Yeah of course you did! The first thing most people would do is say right let's see what difference that made...VROOMMMM
Not happy with the engine work you want more tweaks and upgrades. At that point you find the dark oil and the debris on the magnetic plug? I can imagine what you thought then GULP!
The decision to split the gearbox was absolutely epic! Now you are trying to say AM is at fault for buying substandard gearboxes due to cost restrictions? That really does take the biscuit! I'm not surprised they told you where to go!
Lessons for me here are:
Buy an Aston that I am happy with and don't have to upgrade/tweak
Don't use a so called specialist independent to do any work on my Aston
Only have work done on my P&J by AMW
I feel sorry you pal but I do feel if you had left things well alone and not gone for a few extra BHP/torques then the bill would be at AM's door not yours! That's assuming the gearboxes are faulty, which I very much doubt and not caused by your/BR's tinkering.
Overriding question is WHY?
I assume this is your first Aston, you have a lot to learn You buy a perfectly good V8VRS but are not happy with the performance so you take it so some independent "specialist" to upgrade and tweak the engine for more power/torque? Why? If you wanted more just buy a V12V! Presumably the car is in warranty? Why would you risk invalidating it?
That work is carried out and you drive the car sedately for 100 miles? Yeah of course you did! The first thing most people would do is say right let's see what difference that made...VROOMMMM
Not happy with the engine work you want more tweaks and upgrades. At that point you find the dark oil and the debris on the magnetic plug? I can imagine what you thought then GULP!
The decision to split the gearbox was absolutely epic! Now you are trying to say AM is at fault for buying substandard gearboxes due to cost restrictions? That really does take the biscuit! I'm not surprised they told you where to go!
Lessons for me here are:
Buy an Aston that I am happy with and don't have to upgrade/tweak
Don't use a so called specialist independent to do any work on my Aston
Only have work done on my P&J by AMW
I feel sorry you pal but I do feel if you had left things well alone and not gone for a few extra BHP/torques then the bill would be at AM's door not yours! That's assuming the gearboxes are faulty, which I very much doubt and not caused by your/BR's tinkering.
Overriding question is WHY?
Oh and you might want to re read Mikey's opening post
tonyhall38 said:
but during testing of the engine how much stress was put onto the gearbox....could this have weakened it in some way?....I only ask because the car from Mikey's trips and documented pictures on here seem to show no problems with the gearbox.....up to a certain point.....
The box had always had a whine from cold, the magnetic plug was never checked when it was mentioned to the dealers so early sign were not detected.I did also report poor rev matching between gears to the dealer at 6 months old again "nothing was found"
At 13k miles it was delivered to BR for the project to start, who noticed some noise from the rear end (possibly this fault?)
The 5.0 GT4 engine was fitted and it then did 100 miles at low revs (giving 30 mpg!) to run in and test the engine, it has barely been used since then.
As John Ryan says there was probably a material defect from new that went undetected and I suspect developed in to what you see through lack of cooling.
The gear is plainly the final drive pinion, not one of the change speed gears. In other words it is a rear axle gear, though part of the transaxle. This kind of gear is usually very capable of transmitting more torque and power without trouble. It is certainly not the weakest part of the transmission. It would have been the cause of the whine, but most likely not anything to do with gear changing - unless some debris had damaged the ASM selection kit.
mikey k said:
The box had always had a whine from cold, the magnetic plug was never checked when it was mentioned to the dealers so early sign were not detected.
I did also report poor rev matching between gears to the dealer at 6 months old again "nothing was found"
At 13k miles it was delivered to BR for the project to start, who noticed some noise from the rear end (possibly this fault?)
The 5.0 GT4 engine was fitted and it then did 100 miles at low revs (giving 30 mpg!) to run in and test the engine, it has barely been used since then.
As John Ryan says there was probably a material defect from new that went undetected and I suspect developed in to what you see through lack of cooling.
Why did BR not insist that you pressed AM on the noise issue? I did also report poor rev matching between gears to the dealer at 6 months old again "nothing was found"
At 13k miles it was delivered to BR for the project to start, who noticed some noise from the rear end (possibly this fault?)
The 5.0 GT4 engine was fitted and it then did 100 miles at low revs (giving 30 mpg!) to run in and test the engine, it has barely been used since then.
As John Ryan says there was probably a material defect from new that went undetected and I suspect developed in to what you see through lack of cooling.
Ikebaddog said:
FrankieV8VSP10 said:
Let me get this straight and confront the elephant in the room.
You buy a perfectly good V8VRS but are not happy with the performance so you take it so some independent "specialist" to upgrade and tweak the engine for more power/torque? Why? If you wanted more just buy a V12V! Presumably the car is in warranty? Why would you risk invalidating it?
That work is carried out and you drive the car sedately for 100 miles? Yeah of course you did! The first thing most people would do is say right let's see what difference that made...VROOMMMM
Not happy with the engine work you want more tweaks and upgrades. At that point you find the dark oil and the debris on the magnetic plug? I can imagine what you thought then GULP!
The decision to split the gearbox was absolutely epic! Now you are trying to say AM is at fault for buying substandard gearboxes due to cost restrictions? That really does take the biscuit! I'm not surprised they told you where to go!
Lessons for me here are:
Buy an Aston that I am happy with and don't have to upgrade/tweak
Don't use a so called specialist independent to do any work on my Aston
Only have work done on my P&J by AMW
I feel sorry you pal but I do feel if you had left things well alone and not gone for a few extra BHP/torques then the bill would be at AM's door not yours! That's assuming the gearboxes are faulty, which I very much doubt and not caused by your/BR's tinkering.
Overriding question is WHY?
I do believe this hits the nail on the head.You buy a perfectly good V8VRS but are not happy with the performance so you take it so some independent "specialist" to upgrade and tweak the engine for more power/torque? Why? If you wanted more just buy a V12V! Presumably the car is in warranty? Why would you risk invalidating it?
That work is carried out and you drive the car sedately for 100 miles? Yeah of course you did! The first thing most people would do is say right let's see what difference that made...VROOMMMM
Not happy with the engine work you want more tweaks and upgrades. At that point you find the dark oil and the debris on the magnetic plug? I can imagine what you thought then GULP!
The decision to split the gearbox was absolutely epic! Now you are trying to say AM is at fault for buying substandard gearboxes due to cost restrictions? That really does take the biscuit! I'm not surprised they told you where to go!
Lessons for me here are:
Buy an Aston that I am happy with and don't have to upgrade/tweak
Don't use a so called specialist independent to do any work on my Aston
Only have work done on my P&J by AMW
I feel sorry you pal but I do feel if you had left things well alone and not gone for a few extra BHP/torques then the bill would be at AM's door not yours! That's assuming the gearboxes are faulty, which I very much doubt and not caused by your/BR's tinkering.
Overriding question is WHY?
Carry on trolling...
FrankieV8VSP10 said:
Let me get this straight and confront the elephant in the room.
You buy a perfectly good V8VRS but are not happy with the performance so you take it so some independent "specialist" to upgrade and tweak the engine for more power/torque? Why? If you wanted more just buy a V12V! Presumably the car is in warranty? Why would you risk invalidating it?
That work is carried out and you drive the car sedately for 100 miles? Yeah of course you did! The first thing most people would do is say right let's see what difference that made...VROOMMMM
Not happy with the engine work you want more tweaks and upgrades. At that point you find the dark oil and the debris on the magnetic plug? I can imagine what you thought then GULP!
The decision to split the gearbox was absolutely epic! Now you are trying to say AM is at fault for buying substandard gearboxes due to cost restrictions? That really does take the biscuit! I'm not surprised they told you where to go!
Lessons for me here are:
Buy an Aston that I am happy with and don't have to upgrade/tweak
Don't use a so called specialist independent to do any work on my Aston
Only have work done on my P&J by AMW
I feel sorry you pal but I do feel if you had left things well alone and not gone for a few extra BHP/torques then the bill would be at AM's door not yours! That's assuming the gearboxes are faulty, which I very much doubt and not caused by your/BR's tinkering.
Overriding question is WHY?
You probably need to read the Johnny 550 thread and understand the history of the cars "issues" You buy a perfectly good V8VRS but are not happy with the performance so you take it so some independent "specialist" to upgrade and tweak the engine for more power/torque? Why? If you wanted more just buy a V12V! Presumably the car is in warranty? Why would you risk invalidating it?
That work is carried out and you drive the car sedately for 100 miles? Yeah of course you did! The first thing most people would do is say right let's see what difference that made...VROOMMMM
Not happy with the engine work you want more tweaks and upgrades. At that point you find the dark oil and the debris on the magnetic plug? I can imagine what you thought then GULP!
The decision to split the gearbox was absolutely epic! Now you are trying to say AM is at fault for buying substandard gearboxes due to cost restrictions? That really does take the biscuit! I'm not surprised they told you where to go!
Lessons for me here are:
Buy an Aston that I am happy with and don't have to upgrade/tweak
Don't use a so called specialist independent to do any work on my Aston
Only have work done on my P&J by AMW
I feel sorry you pal but I do feel if you had left things well alone and not gone for a few extra BHP/torques then the bill would be at AM's door not yours! That's assuming the gearboxes are faulty, which I very much doubt and not caused by your/BR's tinkering.
Overriding question is WHY?
My "perfectly good" S was far from it right out the box
My Aston MUST be a roadster, MUST have light weight seats and MUST have an ASM gearbox, they do not make this car (yet)
I did consider a V12VR manual and drove a couple, I could not get on with the light weight seats and 6MT combination nor did I want to spend another £80k
I came from a far more powerful roadster and miss its performance
BR's 5.0GT4 was the lowest risk way forward.
The car is in AM warranty and BR have agreed to warranty anything failing as a consequence of their work (this failure is not in that scope)
I didn't do the 100 miles, BR did it to Fords durability procedure employed by Aston Martin
The "other tweaks and upgrades" are all part of the project to compliment the 5.0GT4 engine (reinstate gearbox cooler add race drive shafts etc)
There wasn't an "epic decision" to split the gearbox it was always going to happen as it was required to retrofit the oil pump and hoses deleted by the factory.
You have your opinion and are welcome to the "lessons" from my experience, after all that is what these forums are for
They simply differ to mine
Neil1300r said:
Ikebaddog said:
FrankieV8VSP10 said:
Let me get this straight and confront the elephant in the room.
You buy a perfectly good V8VRS but are not happy with the performance so you take it so some independent "specialist" to upgrade and tweak the engine for more power/torque? Why? If you wanted more just buy a V12V! Presumably the car is in warranty? Why would you risk invalidating it?
That work is carried out and you drive the car sedately for 100 miles? Yeah of course you did! The first thing most people would do is say right let's see what difference that made...VROOMMMM
Not happy with the engine work you want more tweaks and upgrades. At that point you find the dark oil and the debris on the magnetic plug? I can imagine what you thought then GULP!
The decision to split the gearbox was absolutely epic! Now you are trying to say AM is at fault for buying substandard gearboxes due to cost restrictions? That really does take the biscuit! I'm not surprised they told you where to go!
Lessons for me here are:
Buy an Aston that I am happy with and don't have to upgrade/tweak
Don't use a so called specialist independent to do any work on my Aston
Only have work done on my P&J by AMW
I feel sorry you pal but I do feel if you had left things well alone and not gone for a few extra BHP/torques then the bill would be at AM's door not yours! That's assuming the gearboxes are faulty, which I very much doubt and not caused by your/BR's tinkering.
Overriding question is WHY?
I do believe this hits the nail on the head.You buy a perfectly good V8VRS but are not happy with the performance so you take it so some independent "specialist" to upgrade and tweak the engine for more power/torque? Why? If you wanted more just buy a V12V! Presumably the car is in warranty? Why would you risk invalidating it?
That work is carried out and you drive the car sedately for 100 miles? Yeah of course you did! The first thing most people would do is say right let's see what difference that made...VROOMMMM
Not happy with the engine work you want more tweaks and upgrades. At that point you find the dark oil and the debris on the magnetic plug? I can imagine what you thought then GULP!
The decision to split the gearbox was absolutely epic! Now you are trying to say AM is at fault for buying substandard gearboxes due to cost restrictions? That really does take the biscuit! I'm not surprised they told you where to go!
Lessons for me here are:
Buy an Aston that I am happy with and don't have to upgrade/tweak
Don't use a so called specialist independent to do any work on my Aston
Only have work done on my P&J by AMW
I feel sorry you pal but I do feel if you had left things well alone and not gone for a few extra BHP/torques then the bill would be at AM's door not yours! That's assuming the gearboxes are faulty, which I very much doubt and not caused by your/BR's tinkering.
Overriding question is WHY?
Carry on trolling...
k made you judge of who's capable of reading the thread properlyjohn ryan said:
The gear is plainly the final drive pinion, not one of the change speed gears. In other words it is a rear axle gear, though part of the transaxle. This kind of gear is usually very capable of transmitting more torque and power without trouble. It is certainly not the weakest part of the transmission. It would have been the cause of the whine, but most likely not anything to do with gear changing - unless some debris had damaged the ASM selection kit.
it is indeed the pinion from the final drive and as you say has proven itself with much higher power and torque outputs (IIRC is it the basis of the 1-77 box)Edited by mikey k on Friday 7th March 21:31
Ikebaddog said:
Why did BR not insist that you pressed AM on the noise issue?
They initially diagnosed a rear wheel bearing which I agreed to pay the parts cost for as the drive shafts are coming out any wayI'd also like to point out BR have offered to rebuild the gearbox at parts only cost to me which I feel is a great gesture of good will.
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