ASM2 Gearbox Failure

[mikey k]

Jockman said:

I didn't touch my DB9 and I firmly believe that modders are generally big girls - Mikey, Yeti, Mikey, PiloteAM, Mikey, Molly etc.

Btw lanzarote is a bit cloudy this morning

Beaming sunshine here
No roadster though

[mikey k]

Parts are on 10 weeks lead time
BR are "looking at other routes"
They also now have a 141 point check at services, the last being a video camera in to the gearbox

[mikey k]

Steve Richards said:

Sorry to hear of your problem, but on a brighter note, couldn't happen at a better time whilst at BR rather than on a hoon. So looking forward to seeing the performance figures..........

and still plenty of time to sort it all before Johhny's inaugural Alps trip

[mikey k]

robgt said:

My V8S is fitted with ASM2, car is 8 months old and has completed 8000 miles. 3800 of those were on a hard charging Alpine tour. With the problem Mikey has I was worried so Bamford Rose emptied the gearbox and thoroughly checked the oil then duly replaced it. I am very happy to report that there is no cause for concern the old oil was in good condition with no unwanted deposits. So to those of you out there with concerns you may rest easy.

My heart goes out to Mikey, seems that he has just been rather unlucky. However I understand that if you are speccing a new V8S with sports pac you will be asked if you would like a transmission oil cooler!! Based on that I think that I will be ringing Bamford Rose to retro fit one. The joys of owning an Aston Martin are many fold.

Glad to hear yours passed the test

[mikey k]

robgt said:

However I understand that if you are speccing a new V8S with sports pac you will be asked if you would like a transmission oil cooler!!

Found out this is also true on V12VS apparently as they don't have the cooler fitted to 6MT or ASM1 (boy some one at Gaydon is being a real arse!)
Turns out the crown and pinion are common across ASM2, ASM3 and DBS so why the hell it has taken 10 weeks to get a set I have no idea (it feels like AM just can't be bothered)
Anyway light at the end of the tunnel as the parts are due in next week and BR can crack on.
We discussed and agreed on adding some extra oil pipe work to better distribute the cooled oil through the box as well as shot peening to improve the surface of the gears

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shot_peening

Interestingly, getting my hands on the failed part and having a close look at it last week it was definitely a fault in the manufacturing of the gear. You can clearly see where flakes have progressively come off just one face of one tooth. No other signs on any other teeth.

Once again thanks for the support Gaydon

[mikey k]

Yep primarily a material defect but the oil has degraded through overheating

[mikey k]

MollyGTi said:

How much longer Mikey? We need you back on the road and bonding with your car before our great Alpine adventure!

Hope you are going to set aside some time on 28th June to introduce Johnny to the Welsh Weekenders

Parts should be with BR in the next week or so
Keeping options open for that weekend at the moment as I may still be getting sorted by then

[mikey k]

Parts are allegedly "in transit"
So Bamford Rose can so crack on with finishing Johnny off!

[mikey k]

Bit of an update
We have now sorted this problem, added extra oil injection and a speed controlled pump with the ASM1 radiator reinstated.
We also shot peened and polished the gearbox internals
The combination of this work has dropped the oil temperature by upto 50C to ~80C
Thanks to Ian at Gaydon for his intervention and excellent customer focus on a failure like this after 13k miles and 12 months

[mikey k]

yeti said:

mikey k said:

Thanks to Ian at Gaydon for his intervention and excellent customer focus on a failure like this after 13k miles and 12 months

People might not get the sarcasm here Mikey. Pathetic behaviour from AM themselves.

Maybe this will make it clear!

Johnny went in to BR as a completely stock MY12 Vantage S roadster that had done 13k miles in ~14 months. It had been serviced at an AM dealer at one year old. I had noticed a noise from what I assumed was the diff when it was cold.

We agreed it may be prudent to reinstate the external oil cooler AM removed in going to ASM3 (also missing on V12VS). We had hoped to simply remove some blanking plugs and connect up the removed parts. No! Aston has wasted the money they saved in removing the cooler by recasting the casing with out the holes! So we had to split it to drill them back out

So when BR split the gearbox to do this they found it was already too late. it was full of dark smelly overheated oil. Like this;

20140520_074520 by mikey k V8VR, on Flickr

20140520_074524 by mikey k V8VR, on Flickr

20140520_074544 by mikey k V8VR, on Flickr

That may have been recoverable until debris was found in the casing and on the magnet, it was traced to the pinion having worn a chunk out of it

20140520_074133 by mikey k V8VR, on Flickr

So that now required a gearbox rebuild/replacement
A quick call to a contact in Customer Support at Gaydon confirmed our fears, the box is a sealed unit from the supplier and AM would not replace it as it had been opened. Pretty poor support but they are with in their rights I'd have accepted a used one or even used parts as a gesture of good will.
Time to look at alternatives, BR managed to work out the required part numbers and approached the gearbox manufacturer direct. After a bit of clarification we sat back for the 10 week lead time to run. That passed with out any contact, we followed up only to be told a very senior engineer at AM Gaydon had personally told them they cannot supply the parts to me and especially not BR
More excellent customer support from AM Gaydon
Back to square one, there was no way this was going to beat me!
A few weeks later suitable parts were sourced through another route. Timing was tight but having seen the quality of the casting and machining inside the gearbox I decide to have ALL the internals shot peened and polished. The aim of this was to make the box more efficient, improve oil coverage and keep it cooler.
As you can see from these pictures there is a MASSIVE improvement

20140619_082239 by mikey k V8VR, on Flickr

20140624_173914 by mikey k V8VR, on Flickr

20140624_173938 by mikey k V8VR, on Flickr

On top of this Adrian redesigned the oil circuit, it now forces oil down the internal of the hollow shafts, sprays it on to the gears rather than relying on gravity and recirculates it via a speed controlled pump (no over cooling!) that is on anti vibration mounts through the oil cooler that was deleted by Aston. We stuck some temperature indicators on either side so it effectiveness can be checked at a glance.

It seems a shame to hide such a work of art away in a box full of oil

20140619_082649 by mikey k V8VR, on Flickr

20140624_173009 by mikey k V8VR, on Flickr

20140624_173101 by mikey k V8VR, on Flickr

There will be more to come on this!

Edited by mikey k on Thursday 3rd July 12:18

[mikey k]

yeti said:

mikey k said:

only to be told a very senior engineer at AM Gaydon had personally told them they cannot supply the parts to me and especially not BR

Great post Mikey - I would like more people to know about the petty and belligerant nature of the AM engineer in this matter, for all the bluster in the press and the whole corporate bull package they dish out. Personally I believe they were well within their rights to not supply parts or warranty after the gearbox had been opened as would most marques, but to contact the manufacturer and block you obtaining replacement parts, effectively writing your car off, is disgusting.

in their position in our business I have offered clients a compromise that all are happy with. AM didn't even bother opening the dialogue or thinking about it.
I've just this morning heard of another example of this happening.
AM need a culture change if they really want to retain loyal customers.
I love the car and the brand, what I hate is the apathetic tunnel vision that seems to have invaded all levels of the people that work for them Sad

I was very keen on finding out when the V12VS roadster is likely to appear so I could get an order in, sure as hell ain't happening now! And I'm not sure I want and Aston with AMG DNA it goes against my picture of Astons being "Brutes in Suits"

[mikey k]

Impasse said:

I can't see Gaydon's approach being much different to any other manufacturer's outlook on situations like this. It seems a bit daft to single them out as though it was a personal affront to an individual.

However, I'm pleased you're pleased with the eventual result and hopefully you'll now be able to use the car without worry.

I understand their stance I have been in a similar situation with our business, difference being we have reached a compromise to retain a customer.
Singling out implies other companies were able to sort this out - obviously not the case
I don't consider it a personal affront, more an idiotic frustration, though it seems one senior individual at the factory does
I've bought two cars from them and was ready for a third - not now.

[mikey k]

Impasse said:

Look at it from Gaydon's point of view. A customer has a problem with their gearbox (bear in mind the power output of their engine has been uprated). Instead of leaving it to their group of franchised repair centres, it was taken to an independent outfit whereby the box was removed and partially dismantled for investigation. The owner was aware this would invalidate any warranty offered by the factory.

So now the box is away from any of Gaydon's control and they no longer have any financial interest in it. Also, it could turn out to be a litigious minefield for them as it's now a complete unknown if they did get involved. If the box had been left within the franchise network it would have eventually been replaced as a complete unit under warranty and for the owner, this would have been the most cost effective way of solving the initial problem

Sure, there would have been no pleasant side effects of the upgrades that have been carried out on the various components, but these are a luxury to the owner and aren't deemed necessary for every other production AM using that box.

Some key FACTS for you

1) The box was failing well before BR touched the engine (I know of 4 other S's which have had similar issues)
2) BR DID NOT remove the box to investigate a problem, they did it to fit the cooling AM removed in "upgrading" to ASM2, in trying to fit that they found these issues (thankfully or they would have gone unnoticed until a catastrophic failure)
3) Gaydon has used parts and gear boxes they could provided as good will with no liability (a compromise I'd have been OK with)
4) along with this box failure it also needed two new rear hubs as the bearings had failed at 13k miles.

You clearly have faith the factory and the franchised dealers have your best intentions at heart - good luck
My experience (read my other thread for the myriad of other issues I've had on my two cars) and others recently suggests otherwise.

My intention with this thread is three fold;
1) enlighten people to potential issues with ASM2 (whilst they still have a warranty?)
2) state some facts about how a loyal customer has been treated
3) give others that have this happen out of warranty an alternative to paying AM £15.5k for a new gearbox that may well do the same

[mikey k]

Impasse said:

All of this heartache could have been saved if you had allowed the warranty to instigate repairs. I'm not pulling you up on this as it was your choice to throw money at the car. However, to expect Gaydon to ship out repair parts for a component they only ever supply as built-up unit is unreasonable.

Well not really
It had been at the dealers prior for its first service - they missed the noise, the gearbox issue (dropping the oil would have highlighted it) and the two dying wheel bearings
Also swapping the box under warranty is no guarantee the second will be any better
That gearbox and the wheel bearings could have gone at any time - Outside lane of the motorway? half down a mountain? Out of warranty?
I accept I made a choice to throw time and money at the car and risk warranty claims getting rejected. I don't accept AM couldn't have free issued (or sold?) some used parts they have at Gaydon rather than insist I pay £15.5k for a new box with no guarantee it would be any better and then use underhand and spiteful tactics to prevent me buying the required parts.

My grandfather taught me as a youngster - treat people the way you want to be treated

[mikey k]

Impasse said:

The factory are displaying the same amount of loyalty towards this individual issue as they see was displayed by the owner.

now I know you are having a laugh!
My 2nd Aston left the factory with issues.
They reluctantly did a lot of work on the car (6 dealer visits) and left several unresolved issues
(ironically most now sorted by you know who!)
They washed their hands of the gearbox issue at the first opportunity
And I was still happy to ordered a V12VS

Exactly who had shown more loyalty there
More over loyalty, much like respect, is hard earned and should not be taken for granted.
(another lesson from my Grandfather that has helped pay for a new Aston )

[mikey k]

yeti said:

IMHO AM's motive was clear, they wanted people to be put off by what might happen if you dare modify your car. Pure spite.

But happily, it shows that no matter what, BR get their customers out of any situation. The engineering work on that gearbox is awesome, dealers/Works couldn't have done it.

Quite

[mikey k]

Quinny said:

Graziano are also partly to blame....they should have just sold the required parts.....what could AM do?? Other than redesign the complete range of cars to accept a gearbox from another manufacturer

There is more to it than that, they tried their best and were hobbled by a certain person at Aston, I suspect quoting T&C's with veiled threats.
Remember they also use a higher spec version of this box in Ferrari's and Maserati's
A fair bit more engineering and software goes in to those though
(like decent coolers, shot peening and polishing? )

[mikey k]

DB9VolanteDriver said:

As an interested observer...

Why does this surprise anyone? Car manufacturers, as well as many other manufacturers, typically have agreements with their suppliers to not sell repair parts unless through the prime. This is the case in the aerospace industry and in the car industry. Of course it doesn't apply to every single part, but to many of the high value items. Primary motive is to retain the sales in house with all the attendant markups and profit. Sometimes it's even for the small stuff. To wit, A DB7 air filter is ridiculously priced from Aston, but the OEM (Donalsdon in the USA) absolutely refuses to sell directly, citing contractual agreements with Aston.

What is not 'right', IMO, is that AM wouldn't sell the part so repairs could be effected, even if the part was not normally separately sold (only GBs in their entirety). As good will, they should have ordered the part from Graziano and then sold it on to the car's owner.

I see this in our business and understand the strategy
I also understand there are compromises that can be made to encourage brand loyalty

Edited by mikey k on Thursday 3rd July 20:58

[mikey k]

tonyhall38 said:

You should write into watchdog .....get the iron maiden onto it....good old Annie.....

I'd far rather Bruce Dickinson got involved

[mikey k]

tonyhall38 said:

You would have to get him between spray tan sessions....

Wrong Bruce Dickinson - Iron Maidens lead singer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Dickinson