The New AMG Engine Apparently The New Aston V8??
Discussion
Mosdef said:
It needed to be highly adapted. The Jag engine didn't fit any part of the brief from a technical point of view. It was made 'bespoke' out of necessity. An AMG on the other hand doesn't need to be adapted much to fit the purpose.
That may be true, and it's one of the reasons I'm concerned it won't be "bespoke" (as well as some unconfirmed reports from Autocar).JBaps said:
I did exactly what you did in response to my previous post, stretched what you had said to a ridiculous extreme.
My view remains the same, I'm not concerned about the origins of the engine as long as it's fit for purpose. If you'd bother to read my previous posts you'd see that I would be unlikely to be happy with a minor tweaked AMG engine. At the same time I think it's pretty daft to expect Aston Martin to in house develop a competitive engine to any significant degree themselves, they just don't have the resources to do this.
You said I'd think an Aston-designed "tinny" 4 cyl would be the "perfect" Aston engine. Nothing I've said suggests I'd think it was perfect, but what I've said certainly would suggest I'd consider it an Aston Martin engine. I would. It wouldn't likely be one I'd want, but it would be an Aston engine.My view remains the same, I'm not concerned about the origins of the engine as long as it's fit for purpose. If you'd bother to read my previous posts you'd see that I would be unlikely to be happy with a minor tweaked AMG engine. At the same time I think it's pretty daft to expect Aston Martin to in house develop a competitive engine to any significant degree themselves, they just don't have the resources to do this.
I have bothered to read your posts, and I was surprised by the words you wrote and to which I responded. Your words were, "Personally I don't care what the roots of the an engine are, it just need to sounds right/good to my ears and deliver power in an 'interesting' way!'" I interpret that to mean you don't care where the engine comes from as long as it sounds good and performs well. That sounds like you wouldn't care if it's exactly the same AMG engine as used in AMGs, as long as it sounds good to your ears and you like its performance. Where have I misunderstood your post?
I've never said I think Aston can develop a new engine themselves -- I've been quite clear about that. Perhaps our definition of "significant" differs, perhaps not, but I've also been quite clear that I think they can significantly differentiate an Aston engine from the AMG engine -- in conjunction with AMG. As the press release clearly stated the plan was when the deal was announced.
I'm concerned, but still hopeful, about Aston's future.
Edited by Speedraser on Monday 1st December 03:33
Just read an article in Drive mag which pretty much confirmed the AMG V8 will power future AM's including their transmission and electrics. Merc are taking a 5% share in AM too. Also some exec from Nissan is investing £500m to improve production processes for the next gen cars (i.e. move to mass production processes). This happened at Porsche, when Toyota came in, to redesign their production process.
R8VBV said:
Just read an article in Drive mag which pretty much confirmed the AMG V8 will power future AM's including their transmission and electrics. Merc are taking a 5% share in AM too. Also some exec from Nissan is investing £500m to improve production processes for the next gen cars (i.e. move to mass production processes). This happened at Porsche, when Toyota came in, to redesign their production process.
That would be the new Chief Execurive of AM you mean?Also have to say investing in improving the production processes is not a bad thing in my opinion because at the moment they rely too much on hand assembly which introduces the old enemy, variation, which in turn results in many of the common problems we experience here (they all do that sir). Hopefully that will include their supply chain too as quality should be seen end to end.
The Toyota Production System has been copied with varying degrees of success in all types of manufacturing, it doesn't necessarily mean that more will be made, it should just mean they are made better quality.
Numbers will depend very much on the market position AM wish to adopt. Porsche produce cars down to under £40k. I doubt AM will be adopting that market position.
steveatesh said:
Numbers will depend very much on the market position AM wish to adopt. Porsche produce cars down to under £40k. I doubt AM will be adopting that market position.
Have you been to Porsche lately? I sec'd up a Cayman a few months ago and it came in at £75k. 991's now start at £90k with any kind of spec. Not sure what you can get for £40k? Aston Martin are currently knocking out handmade Vantage GT's in the US, their biggest market, for £64k new!! They are clearly competing with the F-Type and entry level 911's. Add a more efficient and cheaper production process and a reduction in R&D cost by using AMG for everything bar the chassis, body and some interior, and they won't be far off producing an entry level car comparable to the mainstream brands.
Why does no one want to believe AM would like to sell 100,000 cars a year... Of course they do. Why don't they now? People are scared to own one (reliability concerns, plus high cost of repairs), expensive to run/specialist, poor MPG compared to the competition, poor emissions, quality concerns and the fact AM couldn't produce that many if they wanted to. AMG and mass production methods solves most, if not all of these concerns.
R8VBV said:
Why does no one want to believe AM would like to sell 100,000 cars a year... Of course they do.
That is a very high number.
If the 80% export ratio continued, how would they find 20,000 UK buyers every year, who want and are able to spend £100,000 to £250,000 on a new sportscar.
I think Mr. Delorean thought the sports car was a mass market product.
Edited by Jon39 on Monday 1st December 19:33
R8VBV said:
steveatesh said:
Numbers will depend very much on the market position AM wish to adopt. Porsche produce cars down to under £40k. I doubt AM will be adopting that market position.
Why does no one want to believe AM would like to sell 100,000 cars a year... Of course they do. Why don't they now? People are scared to own one (reliability concerns, plus high cost of repairs), expensive to run/specialist, poor MPG compared to the competition, poor emissions, quality concerns and the fact AM couldn't produce that many if they wanted to. AMG and mass production methods solves most, if not all of these concerns. In the first group, with the exception of porsche, they don't produce more than 5-10k cars p.a. - there simply isn;t the marketplace to build 100k p.a. as a single marque only making £85k + sports cars
In the latter group, I believe the aim was for 50k p.a. F type sales but I doubt they will get anywhere near that. aud, bmw & mercedes of course produce gazillions of cars but not many proportionately are sports cars
Porsche are effectivey SUV manufacturers who also make very good, very competitively priced sports cars and to emulate them would be incredibly difficult. Bentley are the far more likely model to try and emulate
But in the instance of either bentley or porsche, the key is to find a core model (continntel & macan/panamera/cayenne) which the brand grows on the back of - I just don;t see it with AM
Surely they are better to aim for the ferrari model of say doubling the output but increasing the profit per car. You can't borrow/buy the tech in from a rival and produce a sufficiently competitively priced model to go relatively speaking, mass market
As for AMG engines that others have commented on, I'll judge the outcome more on how the engines perform/sound/etc than how close they are to the donor company's. I appreciate the sentiment but when push comes to shove, would we really prefer an inferior engine over a superior engine because it's not sufficiently different to the donor company's ? Because I can't see AML developing a competitive all new bespoke engine at an affordable price until at the very least, a full generation's time if they can save put to one side sufficient money along the way to develop their own. And if that was the case, by definition the AMG model would have worked and you can't imagine any company changing a winning formula
R8VBV said:
Why does no one want to believe AM would like to sell 100,000 cars a year... Of course they do. Why don't they now? People are scared to own one (reliability concerns, plus high cost of repairs), expensive to run/specialist, poor MPG compared to the competition, poor emissions, quality concerns and the fact AM couldn't produce that many if they wanted to. AMG and mass production methods solves most, if not all of these concerns.
I can assure you that I would not own an Aston if they produced 100,000 cars per year. Exclusivity is part of the reason to own these cars. If I wanted a car that I could see multitudes of at every stop sign I'd buy a Corvette or a Mercedes.I think this covers most of it:- http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-05-12/aston-mar...
Didn't realise a handmade car costs 40% less to make!
Didn't realise a handmade car costs 40% less to make!
Edited by R8VBV on Monday 1st December 21:14
Speedraser said:
You said I'd think an Aston-designed "tinny" 4 cyl would be the "perfect" Aston engine. Nothing I've said suggests I'd think it was perfect, but what I've said certainly would suggest I'd consider it an Aston Martin engine. I would. It wouldn't likely be one I'd want, but it would be an Aston engine.
I have bothered to read your posts, and I was surprised by the words you wrote and to which I responded. Your words were, "Personally I don't care what the roots of the an engine are, it just need to sounds right/good to my ears and deliver power in an 'interesting' way!'" I interpret that to mean you don't care where the engine comes from as long as it sounds good and performs well. That sounds like you wouldn't care if it's exactly the same AMG engine as used in AMGs, as long as it sounds good to your ears and you like its performance. Where have I misunderstood your post?
I've never said I think Aston can develop a new engine themselves -- I've been quite clear about that. Perhaps our definition of "significant" differs, perhaps not, but I've also been quite clear that I think they can significantly differentiate an Aston engine from the AMG engine -- in conjunction with AMG. As the press release clearly stated the plan was when the deal was announced.
I'm concerned, but still hopeful, about Aston's future.
I stand by what I wrote, you made a sarcastic response, I did the same back, I'm surprised you're still going on about it!I have bothered to read your posts, and I was surprised by the words you wrote and to which I responded. Your words were, "Personally I don't care what the roots of the an engine are, it just need to sounds right/good to my ears and deliver power in an 'interesting' way!'" I interpret that to mean you don't care where the engine comes from as long as it sounds good and performs well. That sounds like you wouldn't care if it's exactly the same AMG engine as used in AMGs, as long as it sounds good to your ears and you like its performance. Where have I misunderstood your post?
I've never said I think Aston can develop a new engine themselves -- I've been quite clear about that. Perhaps our definition of "significant" differs, perhaps not, but I've also been quite clear that I think they can significantly differentiate an Aston engine from the AMG engine -- in conjunction with AMG. As the press release clearly stated the plan was when the deal was announced.
I'm concerned, but still hopeful, about Aston's future.
I also stand by what said in the prior post, the degree to which the AMG engine will need to be modified in order for to "feel" like something other than the same AMG engine is yet to me determined, it's entirely possibly that small changes might give it characteristics that you'd find Aston like, if that's the case I don't see why it matters how much the engine has had to be modified.
For me the bigger question is, will we see the end of V12 models?
R8VBV said:
I think this covers most of it:- http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-05-12/aston-mar...
Didn't realise a handmade car costs 40% less to make!
If you drive a new 911 you will see how far ahead it is from the current Vantage and I doubt AM will be able to get anywhere near it on the next model, with the small budgets they have. Don't get me wrong I love my Vantage, but most people from my generation, gen Y, would not choose it and I'm reminded of this by my friends quite often!
I don't really think AM will be able to compete for much longer on their own. My reckon they'll build the next models using AMG tech, get back up to 7k sales and then become part of Merc, a staged acquisition. At the moment it's too small for Merc to even bother with..... it's like Tesco buying a local fruit and veg stall.
Interesting article. However I maintain that it's a big leap from AM investing in new and improved manufacturing processes to them making 100,000 cars a year. The new processes will mean quality can be much improved, meaning they can build the brand value but remaining in the low volume high quality sports car market. Didn't realise a handmade car costs 40% less to make!
If you drive a new 911 you will see how far ahead it is from the current Vantage and I doubt AM will be able to get anywhere near it on the next model, with the small budgets they have. Don't get me wrong I love my Vantage, but most people from my generation, gen Y, would not choose it and I'm reminded of this by my friends quite often!
I don't really think AM will be able to compete for much longer on their own. My reckon they'll build the next models using AMG tech, get back up to 7k sales and then become part of Merc, a staged acquisition. At the moment it's too small for Merc to even bother with..... it's like Tesco buying a local fruit and veg stall.
I note that the prices quoted in the article are manufacturing and sale price. However the true price to AM in their manufacturing process is actually an end to end price, from manufacture to when the warranty runs out. The hand assembly and resulting variation in the assembly process results in warranty work. That warranty work has to be paid for and reflects the true cost of assembly when it is a poor assembly process that results in the warranty work being required. This includes their supply chain.
One of the strategic aims of the Toyota Production System is to reduce end to end costs by eliminating variation from the manufacturing process, as well as improve quality.
I suspect that will be the strategy here rather than turning to mass production of cars for which there is no market.
R8VBV said:
I think this covers most of it:- http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-05-12/aston-mar...
They stated rather odd average selling prices.
Their 2007 average figure, was less than the list price at the time (and who has seen a Vantage without any options), of the cheapest model.
It cannot be cost price either, because you will recall the famous story, about the cost price being higher than the list price.
R8VBV said:
Have you been to Porsche lately? I sec'd up a Cayman a few months ago and it came in at £75k. 991's now start at £90k with any kind of spec. Not sure what you can get for £40k?
A Porsche Macan: £40,276.00 incl. VAThttp://www.porsche.com/uk/models/macan/macan/
BravoV8V said:
R8VBV said:
Have you been to Porsche lately? I sec'd up a Cayman a few months ago and it came in at £75k. 991's now start at £90k with any kind of spec. Not sure what you can get for £40k?
A Porsche Macan: £40,276.00 incl. VAThttp://www.porsche.com/uk/models/macan/macan/
KarlFranz said:
R8VBV said:
What do you think the £64k Vantage GT dressed stupid colours was for?
Aww, man! I hadn't realized that I bought an Aston dressed in stupid colours. FWIW it cost around £86k when you added all the options I spec'd.
Edited by KarlFranz on Tuesday 2nd December 05:00
R8VBV said:
I think this covers most of it:- http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-05-12/aston-mar...
Didn't realise a handmade car costs 40% less to make!
the article is referring to capital outlay......obviously if you spend 50m on a new production line the cost per car is very high for a teeny weenie company like AstonDidn't realise a handmade car costs 40% less to make!
Edited by R8VBV on Monday 1st December 21:14
Jon39 said:
R8VBV said:
Why does no one want to believe AM would like to sell 100,000 cars a year... Of course they do.
That is a very high number.
If the 80% export ratio continued, how would they find 20,000 UK buyers every year, who want and are able to spend £100,000 to £250,000 on a new sportscar.
I think Mr. Delorean thought the sports car was a mass market product.
Edited by Jon39 on Monday 1st December 19:33
A big part of the appeal of Aston Martin is its exclusivity.
I cannot see it as a high volume product as its esp would be diminished.
Prices of new mainstream models circa £80K to £150K.
However everybody would agree that new models with modern technology are overdue.
Whoever does what as long as it gives a thrilling driving experience with a modicum of reliability it's got to be a good thing.
I empathise with Speedrasers comments but we can just wait and see before coming to conclusions.
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