The New AMG Engine Apparently The New Aston V8??
Discussion
Impasse said:
Hardly requires inverted commas around the word logic when the respective maker's stamp is on most of the parts which make up my car. Gaydon themselves manufactured very little of my vehicle, they just nailed it together from a collection of supplied bits - with varying degrees of permanent success.
The Mercedes tie-up just means the lorry which delivers to the factory is hauling differently branded parts. But the Aston Martin factor will still be there in the finished article, so the important things like rattling windows, failing hood mechs and leaky rear lights will stay true to the marque. What more could an AM fan wish for?
That's extremely misleading. The engine in your V8V started out "based on" the Jaguar V8, but it shares essentially NOTHING with a Jaguar (or Ford) engine. The Aston's V8 has its own block, crank, rods, bearings, pistons, rings, heads, cams, valves, etc. NO OTHER car uses those components -- they are completely bespoke to Aston Martin. To me, that's an Aston Martin engine. An off-the-shelf AMG engine (that "differs" only in its electronic setup and its exhaust) is in NO WAY an Aston Martin engine and has no business being in an Aston Martin. It would be a complete travesty, no matter how good the engine might be. Would a Ferrari be a Ferrari if it had an AMG engine? Of course not. Aston Martin deserves no less respect. To be clear, I fully understand that AM needs money and assistance, but this certainly can be done without merely dropping in an off-the-shelf engine from someone else.The Mercedes tie-up just means the lorry which delivers to the factory is hauling differently branded parts. But the Aston Martin factor will still be there in the finished article, so the important things like rattling windows, failing hood mechs and leaky rear lights will stay true to the marque. What more could an AM fan wish for?
About quality/reliability, I have considerable experience with Mercedes-Benz for the last 7 years, and I've owned my MY09 V8V from new. My Aston has been FAR more reliable than my M-Bs. In fact, the only failure on my Aston was the radio's AM-band. The list of things that have failed on my Benzes is far too long to list here -- and certainly not something for an AM fan to wish for.
Edited by Speedraser on Wednesday 26th November 18:46
outofstepuk said:
Here's how I look at it.
I have an V12V I love.
If they bring out another car in the future that appeals more, great I'll buy one if I can afford it.
If they don't, I'll keep the one I have.
More important things to worry about than a future product we actually have zero facts about.
An "Aston" that is powered by an off-the-shelf someone-else's engine (if this is what happens) is one that will NOT appeal to me more than my current Aston. No question.I have an V12V I love.
If they bring out another car in the future that appeals more, great I'll buy one if I can afford it.
If they don't, I'll keep the one I have.
More important things to worry about than a future product we actually have zero facts about.
Just on the reliability subject, isn't perception a funny thing! When ever I mention to people I bought an Aston the first thing they usually say is "how's it been?" In a tone that suggests it should have broken down at least 4 times this month. Yet no one used to say that when I owned my Porsche. Yet what I'm starting to realise is Porsche actually have far more, let's say, fatal issues with their cars, then what I understand AM's do. Did anyone say bore scoring or IMS failure? Go on any Porsche forum and you will see all kinds of horror stories around these two subjects alone. Porsche won't even admit the IMS bearing is an issue, so they don't need to shell out for thousands of new engines, yet they've cleverly designed it out of their newer engines. I actually got rid of mine through fear the engine was going to self destruct at any moment. The worst I've heard on the AM forums are early wear of the clutch and that's probably mostly driver related. Yet Porsche's are the most realiable cars out there and Aston's just breakdown don't they????
They say perception is reality, we'll not in this case!
They say perception is reality, we'll not in this case!
Barnezy said:
Just on the reliability subject, isn't perception a funny thing! When ever I mention to people I bought an Aston the first thing they usually say is "how's it been?" In a tone that suggests it should have broken down at least 4 times this month. Yet no one used to say that when I owned my Porsche. Yet what I'm starting to realise is Porsche actually have far more, let's say, fatal issues with their cars, then what I understand AM's do. Did anyone say bore scoring or IMS failure? Go on any Porsche forum and you will see all kinds of horror stories around these two subjects alone. Porsche won't even admit the IMS bearing is an issue, so they don't need to shell out for thousands of new engines, yet they've cleverly designed it out of their newer engines. I actually got rid of mine through fear the engine was going to self destruct at any moment. The worst I've heard on the AM forums are early wear of the clutch and that's probably mostly driver related. Yet Porsche's are the most realiable cars out there and Aston's just breakdown don't they????
They say perception is reality, we'll not in this case!
Good post and very true, Porsche have loads of problems that have only come to light in the last ten years through the internet. They say perception is reality, we'll not in this case!
Speedraser said:
outofstepuk said:
Here's how I look at it.
I have an V12V I love.
If they bring out another car in the future that appeals more, great I'll buy one if I can afford it.
If they don't, I'll keep the one I have.
More important things to worry about than a future product we actually have zero facts about.
An "Aston" that is powered by an off-the-shelf someone-else's engine (if this is what happens) is one that will NOT appeal to me more than my current Aston. No question.I have an V12V I love.
If they bring out another car in the future that appeals more, great I'll buy one if I can afford it.
If they don't, I'll keep the one I have.
More important things to worry about than a future product we actually have zero facts about.
Impasse said:
Hardly requires inverted commas around the word logic when the respective maker's stamp is on most of the parts which make up my car. Gaydon themselves manufactured very little of my vehicle, they just nailed it together from a collection of supplied bits - with varying degrees of permanent success.
The Mercedes tie-up just means the lorry which delivers to the factory is hauling differently branded parts. But the Aston Martin factor will still be there in the finished article, so the important things like rattling windows, failing hood mechs and leaky rear lights will stay true to the marque. What more could an AM fan wish for?
So why don't you flog the nail, buy something better and go spread your cheerfulness elsewhere The Mercedes tie-up just means the lorry which delivers to the factory is hauling differently branded parts. But the Aston Martin factor will still be there in the finished article, so the important things like rattling windows, failing hood mechs and leaky rear lights will stay true to the marque. What more could an AM fan wish for?
AMDBSNick said:
So why don't you flog the nail, buy something better and go spread your cheerfulness elsewhere
I like my old shed, it is a great little car. But if any of the three minor faults I listed don't actually happen to any AM product then I'll gladly retract my glib comment.Sensitive, defensive humourless lot on here.
Now, let's talk about the Toyota Evora, the Ferrari Quattroporte, the BMW F1, the Mercedes Zonda and the Lamborghini R8. I hear their identity is defined by their engine manufacturer.
For all the frothing which goes on about this tie-up you'd think the engine supplier was the most important thing about the car. Which is ironic when the average indignant AM user probably couldn't even open the bonnet without referring to the handbook.
Impasse said:
Which is ironic when the average indignant AM user probably couldn't even open the bonnet without referring to the handbook.
Tbh, I couldn't even open the Handbook without phoning the Dealer 
Furthermore, the average AM user would never open his bonnet anyway. That's why we have 'servants' called Roger
Speedraser said:
The engine in your V8V started out "based on" the Jaguar V8, but it shares essentially NOTHING with a Jaguar (or Ford) engine. The Aston's V8 has its own block, crank, rods, bearings, pistons, rings, heads, cams, valves, etc.
I've never understood this. If everything is bespoke to AM - and the parts you mention are pretty major, the block particularly - then where is the Jaguar DNA in the Aston V8? Edited by Speedraser on Wednesday 26th November 18:46
Whether it's partial DNA or more extensive DNA from another well regarded source, I don't see a huge difference.
Edited by Mosdef on Thursday 27th November 13:27
Mosdef said:
I've never understood this. If everything is bespoke to AM - and the parts you mention are pretty major, the block particularly - then where is the Jaguar DNA in the Aston V8?
Whether it's partial DNA or more extensive DNA from another well regarded source, I don't see a huge difference.
The AM V8 engine is based on the Jaguar AJ-V8, originally produced in 1996: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_AJ-V8_engineWhether it's partial DNA or more extensive DNA from another well regarded source, I don't see a huge difference.
The AM variant was designed by Cosworth engineers (owned by Ford at the time) and is manufactured in a dedicated facility in a Ford factory in Cologne, Germany.
Jockman said:
Impasse said:
Which is ironic when the average indignant AM user probably couldn't even open the bonnet without referring to the handbook.
Tbh, I couldn't even open the Handbook without phoning the Dealer Furthermore, the average AM user would never open his bonnet anyway. That's why we have 'servants' called Roger
BravoV8V said:
Mosdef said:
I've never understood this. If everything is bespoke to AM - and the parts you mention are pretty major, the block particularly - then where is the Jaguar DNA in the Aston V8?
Whether it's partial DNA or more extensive DNA from another well regarded source, I don't see a huge difference.
The AM V8 engine is based on the Jaguar AJ-V8, originally produced in 1996: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_AJ-V8_engineWhether it's partial DNA or more extensive DNA from another well regarded source, I don't see a huge difference.
The AM variant was designed by Cosworth engineers (owned by Ford at the time) and is manufactured in a dedicated facility in a Ford factory in Cologne, Germany.
Love the fact they were British made, makes me all proud of my heritage it does.
BravoV8V said:
Mosdef said:
I've never understood this. If everything is bespoke to AM - and the parts you mention are pretty major, the block particularly - then where is the Jaguar DNA in the Aston V8?
Whether it's partial DNA or more extensive DNA from another well regarded source, I don't see a huge difference.
The AM V8 engine is based on the Jaguar AJ-V8, originally produced in 1996: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_AJ-V8_engineWhether it's partial DNA or more extensive DNA from another well regarded source, I don't see a huge difference.
The AM variant was designed by Cosworth engineers (owned by Ford at the time) and is manufactured in a dedicated facility in a Ford factory in Cologne, Germany.
Bespoke is a misused term anyway; spark plugs, transmissions, possibly ECUs etc are all outsourced so no engine is truly bespoke, particularly one with DNA from another manufacturer.
As long as the engine is an absolute belter and can be made to suit the car/brand's character, I really don't understand the negativity. Yes, a Ferrari with an AMG engine might not be the same but that's much to do with the fact that Ferrari has always made its own V12 and the V8s have been small, high revving compact units (frankly, they don't need help from AMG or anyone else) - the AMG power units are a more natural fit with Aston, i.e. fantastic V8s.
Barnezy said:
Just on the reliability subject, isn't perception a funny thing! When ever I mention to people I bought an Aston the first thing they usually say is "how's it been?" In a tone that suggests it should have broken down at least 4 times this month. Yet no one used to say that when I owned my Porsche. Yet what I'm starting to realise is Porsche actually have far more, let's say, fatal issues with their cars, then what I understand AM's do. Did anyone say bore scoring or IMS failure? Go on any Porsche forum and you will see all kinds of horror stories around these two subjects alone. Porsche won't even admit the IMS bearing is an issue, so they don't need to shell out for thousands of new engines, yet they've cleverly designed it out of their newer engines. I actually got rid of mine through fear the engine was going to self destruct at any moment. The worst I've heard on the AM forums are early wear of the clutch and that's probably mostly driver related. Yet Porsche's are the most realiable cars out there and Aston's just breakdown don't they????
They say perception is reality, we'll not in this case!
Barneyz I couldn't agree more mate - the numerous tales of woe and just simply bad engineering i found when researching on the Porsche forums is heartbreaking (and I speak as an ex TVR owner - a car that caused me little grief or costs in 5 yrs commuting). Just look at the costs that this poor chap had with his Cayman http://www.pistonheads.com/members/showServiceHist... and he didnt even have the bore score/oil burning issue at 20k... Makes running a V12 look cheap! Still want a GT3 mind - once they tighten up the catastrophic con rod bolts.They say perception is reality, we'll not in this case!
Edited by Ken Figenus on Friday 28th November 10:21
Mosdef said:
I've read about that but what I've never understood is the extent of spillover from the AJ-V8 to the finished AM V8. From Speedraser's quick summary of the parts that have changed, I can't really see what Jaguar DNA is left, apart from really basic parts like the sump.
Bespoke is a misused term anyway; spark plugs, transmissions, possibly ECUs etc are all outsourced so no engine is truly bespoke, particularly one with DNA from another manufacturer.
As long as the engine is an absolute belter and can be made to suit the car/brand's character, I really don't understand the negativity. Yes, a Ferrari with an AMG engine might not be the same but that's much to do with the fact that Ferrari has always made its own V12 and the V8s have been small, high revving compact units (frankly, they don't need help from AMG or anyone else) - the AMG power units are a more natural fit with Aston, i.e. fantastic V8s.
See this thread here: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...Bespoke is a misused term anyway; spark plugs, transmissions, possibly ECUs etc are all outsourced so no engine is truly bespoke, particularly one with DNA from another manufacturer.
As long as the engine is an absolute belter and can be made to suit the car/brand's character, I really don't understand the negativity. Yes, a Ferrari with an AMG engine might not be the same but that's much to do with the fact that Ferrari has always made its own V12 and the V8s have been small, high revving compact units (frankly, they don't need help from AMG or anyone else) - the AMG power units are a more natural fit with Aston, i.e. fantastic V8s.
The Jaguar DNA is obvious. The AM engine's daddy was a Jag, it's grand-daddy was a Jag, etc etc
BravoV8V said:
See this thread here: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
The Jaguar DNA is obvious. The AM engine's daddy was a Jag, it's grand-daddy was a Jag, etc etc
Thanks!The Jaguar DNA is obvious. The AM engine's daddy was a Jag, it's grand-daddy was a Jag, etc etc
Looks like it's a highly adapted Jaguar engine. No bad thing in this case.
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