Worst fears realized
Discussion
toohuge said:
Have you heard a Pagani Zonda? That's an AMG V12 and it sounds wonderful.
Well,yes and no. AMG make the engine but it was not used by any other Mercedes cars - the heads are 48 valves rather than the 36 on other AMG V12 engines used by Mercedes.So it was heavily customised rather than being a standard production engine shared by Mercedes and Pagani.
CarbonV12V said:
I have an AMG V8 with a couple of turbos and whilst it doesn't sound anywhere as good as my V12V; it would leave it for dead on most roads. However you can easily change the engine noise with manifolds/exhaust etc. What do you want performance or noise 
Well, I enjoy the sound and feel of my car nearly 100% of the time I'm driving it whereas I enjoy its maximum performance perhaps 10% of the time. I enjoy the way it looks 100% of the time. So outright performance is actually quite low on my list of priorities in fact. All adds up to why I am in a V8V and why I will end up in a V12V. Just love these cars, the numbers are really not important, it's about how they make me feel.RichB said:
As this is being discussed extensively on several threads on the AMOC forum I will repeat what I said there.
I don't yet see any reason to fear the Mercedes takeover at Aston Martin. Indeed, to me it appears to be a better match than were Ford. However when Ford took over the company was in desperate need of saving and the DB7 certainly achieved that, and despite what some may say, it's still one of the nicest looking Astons to my eyes. Aston Martin now find themselves in the same position with aging engines and platforms and I fail to see any alternative nor indeed do I understand why Mercedes is not a good owner for AML. Maybe I'm missing the point in which case I'm all willing to listen but people who say they want a thoroughbred British built car are deluding themselves, those days are long gone.
When was the last time Daimler Benz bought another manufacturer and ran it successfully?I don't yet see any reason to fear the Mercedes takeover at Aston Martin. Indeed, to me it appears to be a better match than were Ford. However when Ford took over the company was in desperate need of saving and the DB7 certainly achieved that, and despite what some may say, it's still one of the nicest looking Astons to my eyes. Aston Martin now find themselves in the same position with aging engines and platforms and I fail to see any alternative nor indeed do I understand why Mercedes is not a good owner for AML. Maybe I'm missing the point in which case I'm all willing to listen but people who say they want a thoroughbred British built car are deluding themselves, those days are long gone.
Ford setup a specific division for its premium brands, recognised they needed to be different from the standard Ford fare. Not convinced Daimler view it in the same way.
The bottom line is A.M. simply can't afford to effectively develop all their own engines and electronic architecture, not if they are going to keep pace with the rapidly moving global legislation and technology. Much as I would love them to be wholly independant, with fully bespoke engines and e/e, it just isn't going to happen.
So just as Lambo, Bentley, Bugatti and Porsche are part of VW, Rolls Royce BMW, Ferrari and Maserati - Fiat, etc etc, Aston have to get into bed with some one in order to survive! The good old days of spending big on developing indepenent brands, as Ford did with Aston, are pretty much gone thanks to the global recession, one reason why Ford had to sell JLR and Aston. We are now talking global group platform and component sharing, economies of scale etc!
At the moment I think they are treading this sensitive line as well as can be expected, by retaining their independance but working closely with one of the major players and technological leaders in the car industry. Put yourself in their position, who else would you tie up with, VW have their own competing brands, Ferrari/Maserati powerplants wouldn't be available, BMW would be a possible but would (IMO) require a more bespoke expensive approach to make it work (F1 engine please
) ... even if they were interested. JLR could work, but they are aiming to move into Aston's market.. alla F-Type, etc, etc.
Mercs grunt laden AMG engines remind me (a bit) of Aston's supercharged behemoths from days gone by, and Merc are at the forefront of in-car technology. I think Aston's unique beautiful design and chassis balance/steering feel, interior design and brand feelgood factor will still be unique and I'm sure they will stamp their own DNA on the new components, including the AMG V8's. Of course only time will tell how well they handle the tie up, but in the meantime let's try and keep the faith while letting A.M. know what we want from the new models...
So just as Lambo, Bentley, Bugatti and Porsche are part of VW, Rolls Royce BMW, Ferrari and Maserati - Fiat, etc etc, Aston have to get into bed with some one in order to survive! The good old days of spending big on developing indepenent brands, as Ford did with Aston, are pretty much gone thanks to the global recession, one reason why Ford had to sell JLR and Aston. We are now talking global group platform and component sharing, economies of scale etc!
At the moment I think they are treading this sensitive line as well as can be expected, by retaining their independance but working closely with one of the major players and technological leaders in the car industry. Put yourself in their position, who else would you tie up with, VW have their own competing brands, Ferrari/Maserati powerplants wouldn't be available, BMW would be a possible but would (IMO) require a more bespoke expensive approach to make it work (F1 engine please
) ... even if they were interested. JLR could work, but they are aiming to move into Aston's market.. alla F-Type, etc, etc.Mercs grunt laden AMG engines remind me (a bit) of Aston's supercharged behemoths from days gone by, and Merc are at the forefront of in-car technology. I think Aston's unique beautiful design and chassis balance/steering feel, interior design and brand feelgood factor will still be unique and I'm sure they will stamp their own DNA on the new components, including the AMG V8's. Of course only time will tell how well they handle the tie up, but in the meantime let's try and keep the faith while letting A.M. know what we want from the new models...
Grant3 said:
The bottom line is A.M. simply can't afford to effectively develop all their own engines and electronic architecture, not if they are going to keep pace with the rapidly moving global legislation and technology. Much as I would love them to be wholly independant, with fully bespoke engines and e/e, it just isn't going to happen.
So just as Lambo, Bentley, Bugatti and Porsche are part of VW, Rolls Royce BMW, Ferrari and Maserati - Fiat, etc etc, Aston have to get into bed with some one in order to survive! The good old days of spending big on developing indepenent brands, as Ford did with Aston, are pretty much gone thanks to the global recession, one reason why Ford had to sell JLR and Aston. We are now talking global group platform and component sharing, economies of scale etc!
At the moment I think they are treading this sensitive line as well as can be expected, by retaining their independance but working closely with one of the major players and technological leaders in the car industry. Put yourself in their position, who else would you tie up with, VW have their own competing brands, Ferrari/Maserati powerplants wouldn't be available, BMW would be a possible but would (IMO) require a more bespoke expensive approach to make it work (F1 engine please) ... even if they were interested. JLR could work, but they are aiming to move into Aston's market.. alla F-Type, etc, etc.
Mercs grunt laden AMG engines remind me (a bit) of Aston's supercharged behemoths from days gone by, and Merc are at the forefront of in-car technology. I think Aston's unique beautiful design and chassis balance/steering feel, interior design and brand feelgood factor will still be unique and I'm sure they will stamp their own DNA on the new components, including the AMG V8's. Of course only time will tell how well they handle the tie up, but in the meantime let's try and keep the faith while letting A.M. know what we want from the new models...
Great post Grant - spot on in every respect.So just as Lambo, Bentley, Bugatti and Porsche are part of VW, Rolls Royce BMW, Ferrari and Maserati - Fiat, etc etc, Aston have to get into bed with some one in order to survive! The good old days of spending big on developing indepenent brands, as Ford did with Aston, are pretty much gone thanks to the global recession, one reason why Ford had to sell JLR and Aston. We are now talking global group platform and component sharing, economies of scale etc!
At the moment I think they are treading this sensitive line as well as can be expected, by retaining their independance but working closely with one of the major players and technological leaders in the car industry. Put yourself in their position, who else would you tie up with, VW have their own competing brands, Ferrari/Maserati powerplants wouldn't be available, BMW would be a possible but would (IMO) require a more bespoke expensive approach to make it work (F1 engine please
) ... even if they were interested. JLR could work, but they are aiming to move into Aston's market.. alla F-Type, etc, etc.Mercs grunt laden AMG engines remind me (a bit) of Aston's supercharged behemoths from days gone by, and Merc are at the forefront of in-car technology. I think Aston's unique beautiful design and chassis balance/steering feel, interior design and brand feelgood factor will still be unique and I'm sure they will stamp their own DNA on the new components, including the AMG V8's. Of course only time will tell how well they handle the tie up, but in the meantime let's try and keep the faith while letting A.M. know what we want from the new models...
Neil1300r said:
I was under the impression Ford sold AM and JLR as they needed cash fast to support the loss making divisons i.e. Ford USA. Bet Ford regret having to sell them.
Hi Neil, I think you are right and I share your concerns about an outright take over of Aston by MB. I was just referring to the fact that since the recession and many major players nearly going ( or actually going!!) bust, that the market has changed and is now about reducing the number of bespoke platforms and components, rather sharing modular units over entire groups that are then fine tuned to suit each model.The only other direction I could see Aston taking was a Mclaren type route, where they downsized and went further upmarket. But they would still have lacked the technological infrastructure that Mclaren have via F1, or the finance required IMO, their current route does seem logical to me although I appreciate it won't be without its growing pains
!!!FWIW, I agree with both viewpoints - it's inevitable, it's a shame, it won't necessarily be a bad thing.....
Lamborghini/Audi are probably the closest to what the Merc/AML relationship will look like in terms of actual products
You've got the Aventador which uses a bespoke powertrain, has unique look/shape (compared to Audi products) in keeping with Lambo history, unique chassis, reliability/QC up tenfold from when Lambo was independent and modern interior that has mostly unique switchgear but, very much shows the audi sourcing inside where things like MMI and general switchgear layout is of a form that an audi driver can recognise pretty easily so loses an element of 'specialness'
Then the Huracan, which again has a shape fully in keeping with Lambo's history and miraculously looks fairly different to the R8 with which it shares much. However you can see the similarities in shape if you look closely. And in addition to the interior having similar characteristics to Aventador (i.e. you can see the audi 'base'), it has an audi engine & audi chassis, shared with the forthcoming R8. But both are 'tuned' slightly differently.
Interestingly, it was recently shown in a video to be no slower in a straight line than the aventador !
Huracan will probably sell through brand image, looks, the appeal of being a little quirky, the fact it's not by a large mainstream manufacturer, etc. A little like Aston does/will do. The Huracan is I'm guessing no faster than the 458 which is shortly to be replaced by something faster. So it's not a class leader but still very good. Current Astons are a fair bit behind speed & techwise but will be much closer to their rivals with the Merc tie in
Summary: I don't think many (any?) AML fans have an issue with the AMG engine not being good do they ? Surely the issue is about how much it has in common with a mass manufacturer and especially one that puts AMG engines into relatively affordable/mainstream cars rather than whether the engine is any good ?
Lambo have shown they can take a car that shares so much with the R8, charge in excess of 50% more for a not unsimilar product and still remain desirable. But I'd personally prefer more distance between the Aston product and the Merc equivalent than the Huracan/Gallardo & R8. I think we have to look at chassis, looks, engine, interior together and compare them to Merc products to really get an idea, rather than just looking at engine. I do hope AML manage to keep genuinely bespoke chassis other than say for 4x4s, not just because they will be unique, but because bespoke chassis = more difference in shape/looks whereas shared chassis = not much room for manoeuvre on shape = similar looking
Lamborghini/Audi are probably the closest to what the Merc/AML relationship will look like in terms of actual products
You've got the Aventador which uses a bespoke powertrain, has unique look/shape (compared to Audi products) in keeping with Lambo history, unique chassis, reliability/QC up tenfold from when Lambo was independent and modern interior that has mostly unique switchgear but, very much shows the audi sourcing inside where things like MMI and general switchgear layout is of a form that an audi driver can recognise pretty easily so loses an element of 'specialness'
Then the Huracan, which again has a shape fully in keeping with Lambo's history and miraculously looks fairly different to the R8 with which it shares much. However you can see the similarities in shape if you look closely. And in addition to the interior having similar characteristics to Aventador (i.e. you can see the audi 'base'), it has an audi engine & audi chassis, shared with the forthcoming R8. But both are 'tuned' slightly differently.
Interestingly, it was recently shown in a video to be no slower in a straight line than the aventador !
Huracan will probably sell through brand image, looks, the appeal of being a little quirky, the fact it's not by a large mainstream manufacturer, etc. A little like Aston does/will do. The Huracan is I'm guessing no faster than the 458 which is shortly to be replaced by something faster. So it's not a class leader but still very good. Current Astons are a fair bit behind speed & techwise but will be much closer to their rivals with the Merc tie in
Summary: I don't think many (any?) AML fans have an issue with the AMG engine not being good do they ? Surely the issue is about how much it has in common with a mass manufacturer and especially one that puts AMG engines into relatively affordable/mainstream cars rather than whether the engine is any good ?
Lambo have shown they can take a car that shares so much with the R8, charge in excess of 50% more for a not unsimilar product and still remain desirable. But I'd personally prefer more distance between the Aston product and the Merc equivalent than the Huracan/Gallardo & R8. I think we have to look at chassis, looks, engine, interior together and compare them to Merc products to really get an idea, rather than just looking at engine. I do hope AML manage to keep genuinely bespoke chassis other than say for 4x4s, not just because they will be unique, but because bespoke chassis = more difference in shape/looks whereas shared chassis = not much room for manoeuvre on shape = similar looking
Grant3 said:
The bottom line is A.M. simply can't afford to effectively develop all their own engines and electronic architecture, not if they are going to keep pace with the rapidly moving global legislation and technology. Much as I would love them to be wholly independant, with fully bespoke engines and e/e, it just isn't going to happen.
So just as Lambo, Bentley, Bugatti and Porsche are part of VW, Rolls Royce BMW, Ferrari and Maserati - Fiat, etc etc, Aston have to get into bed with some one in order to survive! The good old days of spending big on developing indepenent brands, as Ford did with Aston, are pretty much gone thanks to the global recession, one reason why Ford had to sell JLR and Aston. We are now talking global group platform and component sharing, economies of scale etc!
At the moment I think they are treading this sensitive line as well as can be expected, by retaining their independance but working closely with one of the major players and technological leaders in the car industry. Put yourself in their position, who else would you tie up with, VW have their own competing brands, Ferrari/Maserati powerplants wouldn't be available, BMW would be a possible but would (IMO) require a more bespoke expensive approach to make it work (F1 engine please) ... even if they were interested. JLR could work, but they are aiming to move into Aston's market.. alla F-Type, etc, etc.
Mercs grunt laden AMG engines remind me (a bit) of Aston's supercharged behemoths from days gone by, and Merc are at the forefront of in-car technology. I think Aston's unique beautiful design and chassis balance/steering feel, interior design and brand feelgood factor will still be unique and I'm sure they will stamp their own DNA on the new components, including the AMG V8's. Of course only time will tell how well they handle the tie up, but in the meantime let's try and keep the faith while letting A.M. know what we want from the new models...
Very well put sir! So just as Lambo, Bentley, Bugatti and Porsche are part of VW, Rolls Royce BMW, Ferrari and Maserati - Fiat, etc etc, Aston have to get into bed with some one in order to survive! The good old days of spending big on developing indepenent brands, as Ford did with Aston, are pretty much gone thanks to the global recession, one reason why Ford had to sell JLR and Aston. We are now talking global group platform and component sharing, economies of scale etc!
At the moment I think they are treading this sensitive line as well as can be expected, by retaining their independance but working closely with one of the major players and technological leaders in the car industry. Put yourself in their position, who else would you tie up with, VW have their own competing brands, Ferrari/Maserati powerplants wouldn't be available, BMW would be a possible but would (IMO) require a more bespoke expensive approach to make it work (F1 engine please
) ... even if they were interested. JLR could work, but they are aiming to move into Aston's market.. alla F-Type, etc, etc.Mercs grunt laden AMG engines remind me (a bit) of Aston's supercharged behemoths from days gone by, and Merc are at the forefront of in-car technology. I think Aston's unique beautiful design and chassis balance/steering feel, interior design and brand feelgood factor will still be unique and I'm sure they will stamp their own DNA on the new components, including the AMG V8's. Of course only time will tell how well they handle the tie up, but in the meantime let's try and keep the faith while letting A.M. know what we want from the new models...
Grant3 said:
Hi Neil, I think you are right and I share your concerns about an outright take over of Aston by MB. I was just referring to the fact that since the recession and many major players nearly going ( or actually going!!) bust, that the market has changed and is now about reducing the number of bespoke platforms and components, rather sharing modular units over entire groups that are then fine tuned to suit each model.
The only other direction I could see Aston taking was a Mclaren type route, where they downsized and went further upmarket. But they would still have lacked the technological infrastructure that Mclaren have via F1, or the finance required IMO, their current route does seem logical to me although I appreciate it won't be without its growing pains!!!
Hi Grant, don't dis-agree with you, was just being argumentative The only other direction I could see Aston taking was a Mclaren type route, where they downsized and went further upmarket. But they would still have lacked the technological infrastructure that Mclaren have via F1, or the finance required IMO, their current route does seem logical to me although I appreciate it won't be without its growing pains
!!!Although its a pity its MB as they have history of buying companies and making them worse. Already started with AM - engines will be AM specific - its now engines will be AMG with a different exhaust valve
Neil1300r said:
Hi Grant, don't dis-agree with you, was just being argumentative
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hnTmBjk-M0c
With regards to the tie-up, no doubt we will have a thousand different rumours before the launch, most wrong, but at least it's a chance to air views about A.M's various possible options going forward
Edited by Grant3 on Tuesday 12th August 09:32
williamp said:
Personally Gordon should never have sold out to the Yorkshire tractor builder. Thats when the decline really set is. That and marrying aston together with a saloon car company. They'll be using polish engine designers next!!!!
Indeed, it should have remained in Italian hands... In response to the OP. Frankly, I couldn't care less if they made the engine out of used toilet rolls. If it sounds the same, has decent acceleration and (THIS IS THE BIG ONE) looks as good as an Aston should, then I'm still in. I'm shallow like that though. I'm happy to let Ferrari and Lambo do the wacky, insane stuff.
michael gould said:
my last car was an SL55 with the AMG 5.5L supercharged V8.....fantastic engine both in terms of performance and sound ......don't know what all the fuss is about ......i think some are being a bit "precious"
+1.I don't get the fuss either, the M156 engine and the one you had in your SL55 both sounded great and never left anyone in any doubt that the cars had a big, quite sophisticated V8 engine. I don't hear much difference between those and the 4.7 V8, which thankfully lost the slightly tinny sound of the 4.3.
The new twin turbos, all of which are relatively recent and probably not what people are basing their opinions on, are possibly a bit flatulent in comparison to previous AMG V8 engines but make a great noise nonetheless. As someone else said, they remind me of the supercharged engines of the 1990s.
Fingers crossed the next one doesn't let AML down.
V8V Pete said:
Not sure it's that different from the Jaguar engine in your V8V. When does bespoke become bespoke?
Seriously??? I'm sure. The "Jaguar engine" in my V8 has its own bespoke (ready for the list?) block, bore, stroke, crank, bearings, rods, pistons, rings, heads, cams, valves, etc. The result is a different engine. That's bespoke enough for me. An off-the-shelf AMG (or anyone else's) engine that's been merely chipped and has a different exhaust is NOT bespoke in ANY way. Grant,
I'm not suggesting for a minute that we need, or could even dream of, another clean sheet Tadek Marek-like line of engines. However, the notion that the only option is just dropping an off-the-shelf engine into Astons is just not true. They're obviously not in good shape financially, but the current situation is nothing like the early '90s when they sold something like 42 cars in '93. When this AMG deal was announced, they CLEARLY stated it would result in Aston and AMG designing "bespoke" (their word) engines for Aston Martin. This is NOTHING like that. It's merely the cheapest, most expedient way, and that bodes very badly for what lies further ahead. It's a shameful way to treat Aston Martin, and it's a very slippery slope.
It amazes me that you lot would seemingly be happy with an "Aston" that is just a Benz with different body panels, as long as it also sounded "like an Aston" and said Aston Martin on the badge. I'm sure that's what lies ahead. One significant reason I bought an Aston rather than a Bentley Conti is because my Aston is an Aston, whereas the Bentley has a VW engine and platform. ZERO interest to me. To be clear, it's not about badge snobbery for me -- I wouldn't want an "Aston" that is a rebadged Ferrari either.
Why not a Corvette engine dropped in an Aston? They sound great, don't weigh much, make huge power and torque and get great fuel mileage. How about a GT-R engine dropped in? Great engine. A little electronic trickery through the audio system and it'll "sound like an Aston." Heck, why not an Audi turbo V8 just like the Conti?
A crying shame. I've bought my last new Aston.
I love your passion Speedraser, but let's not write them off yet, wait and see where we end up, as you yourself have said the Jaguar engine was comprehensively re-worked for Vantage and I'm sure there will be changes to the AMG unit.
There are many examples of high profile cars using engines sourced elsewhere and then tweaked, look at the US Viper with an engine that originally came from a truck, and the engine is only part of what makes a great car.
The bottom line is we just have to accept that times change and with much tighter emissions control and globalisation, Aston have to adapt to survive and they either tie in with a major player or go further upmarket and radically downsize.
But the good news from your point of view is the V12 will still be with us for a good while, so you can still keep the faith
There are many examples of high profile cars using engines sourced elsewhere and then tweaked, look at the US Viper with an engine that originally came from a truck, and the engine is only part of what makes a great car.
The bottom line is we just have to accept that times change and with much tighter emissions control and globalisation, Aston have to adapt to survive and they either tie in with a major player or go further upmarket and radically downsize.
But the good news from your point of view is the V12 will still be with us for a good while, so you can still keep the faith
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