Worst fears realized

Worst fears realized

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Discussion

RichB

51,433 posts

283 months

Wednesday 13th August 2014
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Speedraser said:
...A crying shame. I've bought my last new Aston.
Your opinion, which you've shared many times, is fair enough, even if people disagree with it. However why do you feel the need to sign off every post by telling us you've bought your last new Aston? That's only of concern to you - get over yourself as the American's say. wink

jonby

5,357 posts

156 months

Wednesday 13th August 2014
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Speedraser said:
V8V Pete said:
Not sure it's that different from the Jaguar engine in your V8V. When does bespoke become bespoke?
Seriously??? I'm sure. The "Jaguar engine" in my V8 has its own bespoke (ready for the list?) block, bore, stroke, crank, bearings, rods, pistons, rings, heads, cams, valves, etc. The result is a different engine. That's bespoke enough for me. An off-the-shelf AMG (or anyone else's) engine that's been merely chipped and has a different exhaust is NOT bespoke in ANY way.

Grant,
I'm not suggesting for a minute that we need, or could even dream of, another clean sheet Tadek Marek-like line of engines. However, the notion that the only option is just dropping an off-the-shelf engine into Astons is just not true. They're obviously not in good shape financially, but the current situation is nothing like the early '90s when they sold something like 42 cars in '93. When this AMG deal was announced, they CLEARLY stated it would result in Aston and AMG designing "bespoke" (their word) engines for Aston Martin. This is NOTHING like that. It's merely the cheapest, most expedient way, and that bodes very badly for what lies further ahead. It's a shameful way to treat Aston Martin, and it's a very slippery slope.

It amazes me that you lot would seemingly be happy with an "Aston" that is just a Benz with different body panels, as long as it also sounded "like an Aston" and said Aston Martin on the badge. I'm sure that's what lies ahead. One significant reason I bought an Aston rather than a Bentley Conti is because my Aston is an Aston, whereas the Bentley has a VW engine and platform. ZERO interest to me. To be clear, it's not about badge snobbery for me -- I wouldn't want an "Aston" that is a rebadged Ferrari either.

Why not a Corvette engine dropped in an Aston? They sound great, don't weigh much, make huge power and torque and get great fuel mileage. How about a GT-R engine dropped in? Great engine. A little electronic trickery through the audio system and it'll "sound like an Aston." Heck, why not an Audi turbo V8 just like the Conti?

A crying shame. I've bought my last new Aston.
It's not about whether anyone would be 'happy with an aston that......' but more a sense of realism combined with waiting to see what the product actually is

If it is effectively an existing merc with different body panels, that will put off more people than if there are greater differences. We are all working on a comment in autocar that is far from definitive. We also don't know if there will be one engine supplied by AMG for some models that is incredibly similar to an existing merc used engine and another that is more bespoke. We certainly don't know that aston will use a merc chassis for anything other than potentially, an SUV.

TBF, despite the jibes about the Bentely Continental being an A8 in a different suit, which I and others have at times quoted, the two cars look nothing like each other, dont' drive particularly similarly and don't look similar on the inside other than areas of electronics/switchgear being patently audi sourced. But seats, door panels, dash, etc let alone every element of the exterior look very different.

We have reason to be concerned IMO but no reason to panic and certainly no reason to offer definitive judgment until we know more about the finished article and again I'd reiterate, I'm not sure we should read anything too definitive into the autocar quotes

vankypanky

526 posts

184 months

Wednesday 13th August 2014
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Go away with all your common sense remarks, there is no place for you here

jonby

5,357 posts

156 months

Wednesday 13th August 2014
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vankypanky said:
Go away with all your common sense remarks, there is no place for you here
apologies !!!!

It's terrible, it's the end of aston martin as we know it, the company is doomed, nobody will ever buy their products again :-)

Actually in all seriousness, I suspect that even if sales levels stay similar/grow by 10-25%, there is a fair chance that it would incorporate a loss of existing 'core' customers balanced by a growth into those sections of the market previously put off AML (by reliability concerns, performance concerns, etc) - again Lambo is a decent comparison and I'm sure something similar has happened with their customer base

I fully accept that realistically, the more 'mercedesfied' the new products become, the more the niche of a 'british' company and the quirks/individuality of the current range will become lost and in doing so, the appeal to some current customers will dwindle. BUt I maintain we really do have to see how far down the road these new cars go in terms of becoming a clone before we make judgement - chassis sharing & almost identical engines will have a more severe effect than no chassis sharing and a reasonable level of individuality to the engines, particularly as chassis sharing will also mean overall body shapes become more similar

My hope is also that there is sufficient price difference between merc & aston similar products to allow for superior & more individual engines in the aston products


vankypanky

526 posts

184 months

Wednesday 13th August 2014
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jonby said:
My hope is also that there is sufficient price difference between merc & aston similar products to allow for superior & more individual engines in the aston products
and that my friend is it in a nutshell as that will never happen IMO.
merc wouldnt like the competition and lose sales over it. all the clients who buy the AMG 6.3 product loyally would be up in arms if a more powerful unit ended up in a mainstream car. a zonda or any other flying spaceship wouldnt matter.

Speedraser

Original Poster:

1,656 posts

182 months

Wednesday 13th August 2014
quotequote all
I get the "be realistic" thing, but that's actually my point. Much as we all (presumably) would love to see the ideal-world clean sheet Aston Martin engine designed by a modern-day Tadek Marek, that's clearly not going to happen. And I've never said that's what is required to make me happy. However...

What is being discussed now is the opposite extreme. A merely re-chipped "off-the-shelf" AMG engine -- the same exact engine that will be found in a variety of M-Bs -- is in no way the only viable path. It is also certainly NOT what the companies told us -- the deal would result in "bespoke V8 engines" for Aston Martin, we were told. If this new info is true, then they just blatantly lied to us. Certainly they could -- and should -- make a genuine effort to make the engine different, and specific to Aston. At the very least they could develop "bespoke" cylinder heads for it. It's more expensive than a re-chip, but it's not prohibitive. Perhaps give it a different bore and/or stroke. This would cost vastly less than a whole new engine and is entirely within the realm of "modern reality." It would also show that they have some respect for the marque and its history and heritage. Off-the-shelf engines shows that M-B has no more respect for Aston than they had for any of their previous "collaborations" -- none of which turned out well for the other company. That they have to talk of making it sound and feel "like an Aston" really says it all cry

Ford could have merely dropped an off-the-shelf Jaguar engine into the current cars. They didn't -- they spent the money and made the effort to give Astons their own engines, to do it right. AMG is talking about a different computer chip. How very sad.

I've always viewed Aston Martin as being on the same level of automotive specialness as Ferrari. If Astons are reduced to using someone else's off-the-shelf engine, they won't deserve to be in that same caliber anymore.

If Autocar is correct, I've bought my last new Aston (that was just for you, Rich wink).

RichB

51,433 posts

283 months

Wednesday 13th August 2014
quotequote all
Speedraser said:
If Autocar is correct, I've bought my last new Aston (that was just for you, Rich wink).
Now are you certain? hehe

KarlFranz

2,008 posts

269 months

Wednesday 13th August 2014
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You can rest assured that the AMG-AML engine will be at least a little besboke. The reason being that Aston or any self-respecting exotic should never, ever use those hideous plastic "vanity" engine covers with fake ported intake manifolds molded and painted to look like real metal covering the real (and ugly) engine like Mercs and lesser brands often do. Just imagine if you peeked in the engine compartment of a Ferrari or Lambo and saw that.

Would you rather see this:





Or this:



Edited by KarlFranz on Wednesday 13th August 20:49

Mosdef

1,733 posts

226 months

Thursday 14th August 2014
quotequote all
Speedraser said:
A merely re-chipped "off-the-shelf" AMG engine -- the same exact engine that will be found in a variety of M-Bs -- is in no way the only viable path. It is also certainly NOT what the companies told us -- the deal would result in "bespoke V8 engines" for Aston Martin, we were told. If this new info is true, then they just blatantly lied to us. Certainly they could -- and should -- make a genuine effort to make the engine different, and specific to Aston. At the very least they could develop "bespoke" cylinder heads for it. It's more expensive than a re-chip, but it's not prohibitive. Perhaps give it a different bore and/or stroke. This would cost vastly less than a whole new engine and is entirely within the realm of "modern reality." It would also show that they have some respect for the marque and its history and heritage. Off-the-shelf engines shows that M-B has no more respect for Aston than they had for any of their previous "collaborations" -- none of which turned out well for the other company. That they have to talk of making it sound and feel "like an Aston" really says it all cry
But aren't you advocating change just for the sake of it? The AMG engines are very unlikely to be undeveloped and I doubt they'd benefit from what you have suggested.

Much as Aston are up there with Ferrari in terms of desirability - most here will see them as more desirable, I'm sure - I don't think you could argue it is as with respect to engines. I have never been able to admire the current range, for some reason the Jaguar/Ford DNA puts me off completely, regardless of how good the cars look.

I take my hat off to you for being so protective of the brand but I'm in the opposite camp to you. With an updated range powered by AMG derived engines, I'm far more likely to become an AM buyer although, I lament the introduction of forced induction.

downr

3,803 posts

127 months

Thursday 14th August 2014
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Fair comments Mosdef

I think we all lament the forced inductions. Unfortunately I'm not sure there's many options for sports car manufacturers over the medium term frown

(Personally I lament the loss of carburettors too)

vankypanky

526 posts

184 months

Thursday 14th August 2014
quotequote all
oh and those windows on cars that used to slide back and front.
oh and hubbly jubblies, where did they go.

Speedraser

Original Poster:

1,656 posts

182 months

Monday 18th August 2014
quotequote all
Mosdef said:
But aren't you advocating change just for the sake of it? The AMG engines are very unlikely to be undeveloped and I doubt they'd benefit from what you have suggested.

Much as Aston are up there with Ferrari in terms of desirability - most here will see them as more desirable, I'm sure - I don't think you could argue it is as with respect to engines. I have never been able to admire the current range, for some reason the Jaguar/Ford DNA puts me off completely, regardless of how good the cars look.

I take my hat off to you for being so protective of the brand but I'm in the opposite camp to you. With an updated range powered by AMG derived engines, I'm far more likely to become an AM buyer although, I lament the introduction of forced induction.
Perhaps there is some "change for change's sake" but only because having an off-the-shelf engine (from anyone) should never happen to an Aston. But it's not that simple. IMO, the odds that the off-the-shelf AMG unit would have the characteristics that Aston would have chosen for itself (even considering the ability to change "characteristics" through electronic tuning) are nearly zero. For me, it's not only differentiation for differentiation's sake, though I think that is important in this situation. It's also that mechanical differences -- not merely electronic ones -- are likely to result in an engine that is engineered more closely to what Aston would really want in an engine. Do you think Bentley would have chosen to hang a massively heavy W12 cantilevered as far forward of the front wheels as possible in its Conti if it designed the car itself? Certainly not. That may be a somewhat extreme example, but it illustrates my point.

Regarding the current range and the "Ford/Jaguar DNA" putting you off, it's precisely because Ford did so much to differentiate Aston from Ford and Jaguar that I was interested enough to buy one. Also, there seems to be no doubt whatsoever that the next Astons will have far more AMG DNA than the current cars have Ford or Jaguar genes. Is AMG DNA ok, but Jaguar DNA isn't? As I've said, every component -- block, crank, rods, heads, pistons, cams, etc. in the current Aston V8 engine is unique to Aston's engine. Of course, the VH platform is completely bespoke. Parts bin switchgear is certainly nothing new, but the current cars have far fewer parts bin switches than, for example, the Vanquish (original) or the NP V8s do. The DB7, beautiful though it is, never made me want it because of the Jaguar underpinnings. I like Jaguars. But Astons should be Astons, not Jags -- or AMGs.

DB9VolanteDriver

2,612 posts

175 months

Monday 18th August 2014
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Quote from Bob Dover, former Chairman of AML.

"TWR was trying to sell engines to us and the Jaguar engine (TWR modded 6.4L V12) was an obvious alternative because the V12 was such a huge mountain to climb financially. But whether it is an Aston Martin or a Ferrari, it is important to have your badge on the engine."

Says it all to me.

Dewi 1

285 posts

121 months

Tuesday 19th August 2014
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Speedraser said:
--- the companies told us, the deal would result in "bespoke V8 engines" for Aston Martin.

As at present, I do like the situation where Aston Martin have engines that are not used in any other cars, even though the origins were of course elsewhere.

I do unfortunately accept, that this cannot continue. Aston Martin have always been good at raising funds. With regard to profits, well we know, but it seems to be legislation that has ended engine building for small production runs. One small point that I hope might be possible, is for Daimler to allow the cam covers to be replaced, so that they can at least proudly proclaim Aston Martin.
Compare such a senario with that of Morgan.

--- The upload photo will not work --

It might be that BMW will not allow any changes, to the engines they supply to Morgan. So, a small pathetic rectangular alloy plate showing a Morgan badge, is placed on the cam cover (presumably over the cast BMW letters) using two pop rivets.

I hope that this type of work does not make it into a 'bespoke engine'.




CPBRI

392 posts

148 months

Tuesday 19th August 2014
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Too bad AMG won't continue making the 6.2 liter NA motor. It would be a great motor for the Vantage.
My other car is a C63 AMG 507. Really like the car and the motor.

I know turbos are the way forward, but there's nothing like a NA motor! yes

Speedraser

Original Poster:

1,656 posts

182 months

Wednesday 20th August 2014
quotequote all
DB9VolanteDriver said:
Quote from Bob Dover, former Chairman of AML.

"TWR was trying to sell engines to us and the Jaguar engine (TWR modded 6.4L V12) was an obvious alternative because the V12 was such a huge mountain to climb financially. But whether it is an Aston Martin or a Ferrari, it is important to have your badge on the engine."

Says it all to me.
Yup. David Brown and Victor Gauntlett are on record saying very similar things. Of course, in this context he means that your badge alone is NOT sufficient. An Aston badge on the cam covers of an off-the-shelf AMG engine does NOT a bespoke engine make. That would just be lying.

Speedraser

Original Poster:

1,656 posts

182 months

Wednesday 20th August 2014
quotequote all
CPBRI said:
Too bad AMG won't continue making the 6.2 liter NA motor. It would be a great motor for the Vantage.
My other car is a C63 AMG 507. Really like the car and the motor.
No. It's a great motor for an AMG. It's not a great motor for an Aston Martin.