Polishing mops
Discussion
Girls girls girls.....my thanks to those who actually tried to help / advise.
Laser Sag, JohnS200, very kind offer to lend me your gear but I would settle for details of machine and compounds thanks.
My prayers for the rest of you who seem to have a case of verbal (typing) dioria. This wasn't difficult and didn't need people slagging each other off. I have a few scratches that I inherited with the car and they are gradually going but like some of you, I like doing things myself and get a good deal of satisfaction with a good result.....SIMPLES
Laser Sag, JohnS200, very kind offer to lend me your gear but I would settle for details of machine and compounds thanks.
My prayers for the rest of you who seem to have a case of verbal (typing) dioria. This wasn't difficult and didn't need people slagging each other off. I have a few scratches that I inherited with the car and they are gradually going but like some of you, I like doing things myself and get a good deal of satisfaction with a good result.....SIMPLES
There you go 
http://www.polishedbliss.co.uk/acatalog/pb-soft-pa...
The DAS 6 is perfectly adequate for AM paint .
The Power Plus polisher is basically the same but has more power for if you use it on other cars.
The Megs is a bit over priced .
Just be careful if you do go down this route.
http://www.polishedbliss.co.uk/acatalog/pb-soft-pa...
The DAS 6 is perfectly adequate for AM paint .
The Power Plus polisher is basically the same but has more power for if you use it on other cars.
The Megs is a bit over priced .
Just be careful if you do go down this route.
Edited by johnS2000 on Monday 1st September 18:42
johnS2000 said:
There you go
http://www.polishedbliss.co.uk/acatalog/pb-soft-pa...
The DAS 6 is perfectly adequate for AM paint .
The Power Plus polisher is basically the same but has more power for if you use it on other cars.
The Megs is a bit over priced .
Just be careful if you do go down this route.
John,http://www.polishedbliss.co.uk/acatalog/pb-soft-pa...
The DAS 6 is perfectly adequate for AM paint .
The Power Plus polisher is basically the same but has more power for if you use it on other cars.
The Megs is a bit over priced .
Just be careful if you do go down this route.
Edited by johnS2000 on Monday 1st September 18:42
How often would you machine polish? I considered this and realised that kit with the DA is half the price of someone like Paddy doing the full monty.
Worth thinking about for those who are new to detailing.
It all depends on how you wash dry .
Bearing in mind my Honda has very soft , easily marked paint and I've had it over 5 yrs so am familiar with what I can / cannot get away with my polishing sessions tend to be more along the lines of a 6 monthly enhancement using finishing pads and refining polishes and I tend to do this more for removing the present coating and reapplying a new one .
Its generally accepted to carry out a summer / winter prep so every 6 months or so .
You also have to bear in mind that doing it your self may or may not save much money in the short term due to the cost of equipment and products + you have to factor in the learning curve to use all this stuff to an acceptable level of competence .
Some body like Paddy will give you a finish and the back up !!! ( I assume ) that will be difficult to put a price on .
You may be able to purchase the equipment + products for the price of 1 or 2 full details and so, from then on save some cash but at the cost of 2 days hard work once every 6 months .
If this is a hobby then fine and dandy .Go for it .
Hope this helps .
Just to add it takes me 2 hrs once a week to wash and dry my ( properly prepped so easy to clean) car but this does include blow drying the engine compartment and all the nooks and crannies like mirrors /door handles /fuel filler and badges .
The same on my wifes car and my youngests car .
Paddys services may not be that expensive
Bearing in mind my Honda has very soft , easily marked paint and I've had it over 5 yrs so am familiar with what I can / cannot get away with my polishing sessions tend to be more along the lines of a 6 monthly enhancement using finishing pads and refining polishes and I tend to do this more for removing the present coating and reapplying a new one .
Its generally accepted to carry out a summer / winter prep so every 6 months or so .
You also have to bear in mind that doing it your self may or may not save much money in the short term due to the cost of equipment and products + you have to factor in the learning curve to use all this stuff to an acceptable level of competence .
Some body like Paddy will give you a finish and the back up !!! ( I assume ) that will be difficult to put a price on .
You may be able to purchase the equipment + products for the price of 1 or 2 full details and so, from then on save some cash but at the cost of 2 days hard work once every 6 months .
If this is a hobby then fine and dandy .Go for it .
Hope this helps .
Just to add it takes me 2 hrs once a week to wash and dry my ( properly prepped so easy to clean) car but this does include blow drying the engine compartment and all the nooks and crannies like mirrors /door handles /fuel filler and badges .
The same on my wifes car and my youngests car .
Paddys services may not be that expensive
Edited by johnS2000 on Tuesday 2nd September 10:31
johnS2000 said:
It all depends on how you wash dry .
Bearing in mind my Honda has very soft , easily marked paint and I've had it over 5 yrs so am familiar with what I can / cannot get away with my polishing sessions tend to be more along the lines of a 6 monthly enhancement using finishing pads and refining polishes and I tend to do this more for removing the present coating and reapplying a new one .
Its generally accepted to carry out a summer / winter prep so every 6 months or so .
You also have to bear in mind that doing it your self may or may not save much money in the short term due to the cost of equipment and products + you have to factor in the learning curve to use all this stuff to an acceptable level of competence .
Some body like Paddy will give you a finish and the back up !!! ( I assume ) that will be difficult to put a price on .
You may be able to purchase the equipment + products for the price of 1 or 2 full details and so, from then on save some cash but at the cost of 2 days hard work once every 6 months .
If this is a hobby then fine and dandy .Go for it .
Hope this helps .
Just to add it takes me 2 hrs once a week to wash and dry my ( properly prepped so easy to clean) car but this does include blow drying the engine compartment and all the nooks and crannies like mirrors /door handles /fuel filler and badges .
The same on my wifes car and my youngests car .
Paddys services may not be that expensive
John, Bearing in mind my Honda has very soft , easily marked paint and I've had it over 5 yrs so am familiar with what I can / cannot get away with my polishing sessions tend to be more along the lines of a 6 monthly enhancement using finishing pads and refining polishes and I tend to do this more for removing the present coating and reapplying a new one .
Its generally accepted to carry out a summer / winter prep so every 6 months or so .
You also have to bear in mind that doing it your self may or may not save much money in the short term due to the cost of equipment and products + you have to factor in the learning curve to use all this stuff to an acceptable level of competence .
Some body like Paddy will give you a finish and the back up !!! ( I assume ) that will be difficult to put a price on .
You may be able to purchase the equipment + products for the price of 1 or 2 full details and so, from then on save some cash but at the cost of 2 days hard work once every 6 months .
If this is a hobby then fine and dandy .Go for it .
Hope this helps .
Just to add it takes me 2 hrs once a week to wash and dry my ( properly prepped so easy to clean) car but this does include blow drying the engine compartment and all the nooks and crannies like mirrors /door handles /fuel filler and badges .
The same on my wifes car and my youngests car .
Paddys services may not be that expensive
Edited by johnS2000 on Tuesday 2nd September 10:31
So it sounds like you would use a DA for the occasional mark removal but not a full cut to mirror finish. Quite practical.
FYI, my wash sessions sound very similar to yours. So I'm not the only ocd saddo!!
Brent
Not at all .
I've used a DA for a full on paint correction .My youngest bought a Susuki SX4 a couple of months ago .Only 6 mths old but suffering from extreme "eastern european hand car wash " swirling but came up 100% with the DA!! But took 2 days !
Using one of the kits linked above a mirror finish is very possible .
It takes longer than using a rotary but theres a significant reduction in the chance of causing damage .
I , being an amateur , would not use a rotary on AM paint.
I've used a DA for a full on paint correction .My youngest bought a Susuki SX4 a couple of months ago .Only 6 mths old but suffering from extreme "eastern european hand car wash " swirling but came up 100% with the DA!! But took 2 days !
Using one of the kits linked above a mirror finish is very possible .
It takes longer than using a rotary but theres a significant reduction in the chance of causing damage .
I , being an amateur , would not use a rotary on AM paint.
Edited by johnS2000 on Wednesday 3rd September 09:42
Better that rotary polishers are only issued to those with a Hogwarts' degree then?
They are simple, cheap and basic machines that, without doubt, provide the largest time saving and best improvement in finish of anything else in the process.
You can add massive body weight while polishing on dead flat finishes, but then "tickle" tiny details with the same head and compound to near perfection.
They are simple, cheap and basic machines that, without doubt, provide the largest time saving and best improvement in finish of anything else in the process.
You can add massive body weight while polishing on dead flat finishes, but then "tickle" tiny details with the same head and compound to near perfection.
For J12KJR and whoever else it may be of interest to.
Polishing processes are pretty basic and irrespective of the material you're trying to impart a finish upon there are few variations. That said any visit to a classic car event will demonstrate how the most basic rules are ignored time and time again.
The most obvious examples are alloy components including wheels and rocker/cam covers. Look beyond the shiny finish and it's obvious that they've usually been buffed to the point that edges, corners and details have been distorted and in all too many cases damaged beyond repair. Buffing with a polishing mop and compound is a finishing process that should take very little time to accomplish in comparison with all of the work that should precede it. In some cases, veneered wood for example, the transition from fully matt to full gloss takes seconds. So often this rule is ignored and items are polished to oblivion.
While alloy components and veneered wood were never the subject of this thread the same techniques apply to paint and while some of the machinery differs all of the techniques are cross-transferable. Starting with alloy you have to understand that virtually all buffing operations will destroy the edges of details particularly if these are carried out carelessly by a hand guided machine. The way to avoid this is to bring the surfaces as near as possible to perfection first and this is where the hard work comes in. With respect to alloy wheels a diamond cut type and lacquered finish may suit the car however its very different to a fully polished surface that is far more difficult to achieve. Turning a wheel on a lathe eliminates any possibility of edge/detail distortion and the results are always consistent. When hand finishing it is the operator and the techniques and tools used that determine the result.
Irrespective of the type of finish one (perhaps THE most) basic rule is to start with the coarsest cut you think you can get away with but it's here when so many decide to bypass the early steps, skip to the final polish and make a mess. Depending on the condition of the surface the initial cutting back could be be by machine or hand using abrasives or in some cases a file. The important factor is that whatever is used must have no give that would otherwise allow contours to be followed as opposed to there being cut back true and level. Modern castings are pretty good however that has not always been true so correcting shapes and contours was necessary and ALL of this is done at the earliest stages of the process. If there's a defect present now is the time to remedy it whether it is alloy, paint, silver gold or anything other material that can be polished. Starting with a coarse cut is just the start so all of the marks left by this step then have to be eliminated by switching to a finer abrasive and once again this has to be backed up against a hard surface that has little or no compliance. Any "give" will destroy some of the benefits achieved during the first step.
The whole process requires a lot of patience and continual observation and only after ALL of the marks from the previous operation have been eliminated is it time to switch to a finer grade. The number of steps required is determined by many factors but to give an idea of the process used for veneered, lacquered wood trim fitted fitted in the finest vehicles six separate sanding operations are required to produce a finish that while perfectly flat is still completely matt. The actual polish to full gloss was near instant with most of the time at the machine spent simply checking progress by eye as this is the only step where the piece being worked on was often turned away from view.
Despite the final step of wood finishing taking such a short time, for the first step in the process, the compliance of the mops used was considerable. In some aspect this helps as it was allowed instrument apertures to take a full gloss without the additional, separate operations you would expect would be necessary to penetrate back so far from the surface. The disadvantage was that it also caused any sharp edges to soften and this characteristic is visible around all edges.
All of this also relates directly to paint. Manufacturers of mass produces cars have no option but to produce perfect body in white vehicles, minor rectification is done but the last they can afford is for a bottleneck prior to paint. The more specialist the manufacturer, and the lower the volume of cars produced, the less this is a problem. Any defects can be dealt with using a variety of techniques but invariably taking a hand built body to full finish will require that a lot of this work is undertaken by the painter. Although the total finish thickness may only amount to a few thousands of an inch numerous corrections can and will be made using the same technique of using the coarsest abrasive on a hard backing first. Believe it or not, there' s even one old painters trick that involves actually using a file on the final top coat to eliminate defects. A combination of successively finer abrasives, backed with a hard pad finally get to the stage where, with a quality compound, a single polishing operation will bring the finish to near perfection.
This also applies to correcting surface details of vehicles in service. First of all the vehicle obviously has to be clean and preferably in an area with appropriate lighting. A visual inspection of each panel is then made and any defects marked up, chinagraph pencils work well. An assessment is the made as to how to deal with each and many defects are dealt with near instantly with just a few passes from the finest abrasives. Anything more serious is dealt with using a two/three/four step process starting with whatever the coarsest abrasive that will get the job done happens to be.
For all of the reasons detailed in the earlier paragraphs you should not attempt to deal with a scratch you can catch your finger nail in using a machine or finest of abrasive papers. Even if it only takes two or three strokes of the coarser paper this is always the way to proceed. Start coarse, work up through the grades and then, and only then polish. If you ignore that rule and use what should be the final polishing techniques prematurely the the compliant surface of the mop head wears at the edge of the defect but fails to touch the bottom. Therefore you're making the defect larger in cross section or to use another term BIGGER! Of course, eventually you may be able to blitz your way through the entire defect but in most cases you will have removed far more paint than was ever necessary.
There's a certain amount of experience and when you mark up (which could just be a mental note when there's not much to rectify) you can see that some very minor defects will machine out without problem but if there are only a few this present this can be done by hand without the expense of buying a machine. As a guide to which abrasive to use, if you're in doubt and a couple of passes with a fine abrasive paper leave the defect still visibale, go one grade coarser.
As for dual-action v rotary, a rotary machine will do everything you will ever need and saves more time than any other machine used when painting quality motor cars to a fine finish. A dual action machine however will do nothing that you cannot achieve by hand as it pretty much just vibrates against the surface. Polishing action is determined by the speed the mop head passes over the surface and DA machines never achieve any speed. Compare that with the perimeter of a 7" (or larger0 diameter mop rotating at 1800rpm and you'll understand just what they're capable of.
Rotary machines are capable of ripping paint from edges but this risk can be virtually eliminated if all you want to do is a bit of casual detailing by using foam mop heads. These tend to be so rigid they won't deform and get caught on edges, or are so fragile they just destroy themselves before they cause damage.
Polishing processes are pretty basic and irrespective of the material you're trying to impart a finish upon there are few variations. That said any visit to a classic car event will demonstrate how the most basic rules are ignored time and time again.
The most obvious examples are alloy components including wheels and rocker/cam covers. Look beyond the shiny finish and it's obvious that they've usually been buffed to the point that edges, corners and details have been distorted and in all too many cases damaged beyond repair. Buffing with a polishing mop and compound is a finishing process that should take very little time to accomplish in comparison with all of the work that should precede it. In some cases, veneered wood for example, the transition from fully matt to full gloss takes seconds. So often this rule is ignored and items are polished to oblivion.
While alloy components and veneered wood were never the subject of this thread the same techniques apply to paint and while some of the machinery differs all of the techniques are cross-transferable. Starting with alloy you have to understand that virtually all buffing operations will destroy the edges of details particularly if these are carried out carelessly by a hand guided machine. The way to avoid this is to bring the surfaces as near as possible to perfection first and this is where the hard work comes in. With respect to alloy wheels a diamond cut type and lacquered finish may suit the car however its very different to a fully polished surface that is far more difficult to achieve. Turning a wheel on a lathe eliminates any possibility of edge/detail distortion and the results are always consistent. When hand finishing it is the operator and the techniques and tools used that determine the result.
Irrespective of the type of finish one (perhaps THE most) basic rule is to start with the coarsest cut you think you can get away with but it's here when so many decide to bypass the early steps, skip to the final polish and make a mess. Depending on the condition of the surface the initial cutting back could be be by machine or hand using abrasives or in some cases a file. The important factor is that whatever is used must have no give that would otherwise allow contours to be followed as opposed to there being cut back true and level. Modern castings are pretty good however that has not always been true so correcting shapes and contours was necessary and ALL of this is done at the earliest stages of the process. If there's a defect present now is the time to remedy it whether it is alloy, paint, silver gold or anything other material that can be polished. Starting with a coarse cut is just the start so all of the marks left by this step then have to be eliminated by switching to a finer abrasive and once again this has to be backed up against a hard surface that has little or no compliance. Any "give" will destroy some of the benefits achieved during the first step.
The whole process requires a lot of patience and continual observation and only after ALL of the marks from the previous operation have been eliminated is it time to switch to a finer grade. The number of steps required is determined by many factors but to give an idea of the process used for veneered, lacquered wood trim fitted fitted in the finest vehicles six separate sanding operations are required to produce a finish that while perfectly flat is still completely matt. The actual polish to full gloss was near instant with most of the time at the machine spent simply checking progress by eye as this is the only step where the piece being worked on was often turned away from view.
Despite the final step of wood finishing taking such a short time, for the first step in the process, the compliance of the mops used was considerable. In some aspect this helps as it was allowed instrument apertures to take a full gloss without the additional, separate operations you would expect would be necessary to penetrate back so far from the surface. The disadvantage was that it also caused any sharp edges to soften and this characteristic is visible around all edges.
All of this also relates directly to paint. Manufacturers of mass produces cars have no option but to produce perfect body in white vehicles, minor rectification is done but the last they can afford is for a bottleneck prior to paint. The more specialist the manufacturer, and the lower the volume of cars produced, the less this is a problem. Any defects can be dealt with using a variety of techniques but invariably taking a hand built body to full finish will require that a lot of this work is undertaken by the painter. Although the total finish thickness may only amount to a few thousands of an inch numerous corrections can and will be made using the same technique of using the coarsest abrasive on a hard backing first. Believe it or not, there' s even one old painters trick that involves actually using a file on the final top coat to eliminate defects. A combination of successively finer abrasives, backed with a hard pad finally get to the stage where, with a quality compound, a single polishing operation will bring the finish to near perfection.
This also applies to correcting surface details of vehicles in service. First of all the vehicle obviously has to be clean and preferably in an area with appropriate lighting. A visual inspection of each panel is then made and any defects marked up, chinagraph pencils work well. An assessment is the made as to how to deal with each and many defects are dealt with near instantly with just a few passes from the finest abrasives. Anything more serious is dealt with using a two/three/four step process starting with whatever the coarsest abrasive that will get the job done happens to be.
For all of the reasons detailed in the earlier paragraphs you should not attempt to deal with a scratch you can catch your finger nail in using a machine or finest of abrasive papers. Even if it only takes two or three strokes of the coarser paper this is always the way to proceed. Start coarse, work up through the grades and then, and only then polish. If you ignore that rule and use what should be the final polishing techniques prematurely the the compliant surface of the mop head wears at the edge of the defect but fails to touch the bottom. Therefore you're making the defect larger in cross section or to use another term BIGGER! Of course, eventually you may be able to blitz your way through the entire defect but in most cases you will have removed far more paint than was ever necessary.
There's a certain amount of experience and when you mark up (which could just be a mental note when there's not much to rectify) you can see that some very minor defects will machine out without problem but if there are only a few this present this can be done by hand without the expense of buying a machine. As a guide to which abrasive to use, if you're in doubt and a couple of passes with a fine abrasive paper leave the defect still visibale, go one grade coarser.
As for dual-action v rotary, a rotary machine will do everything you will ever need and saves more time than any other machine used when painting quality motor cars to a fine finish. A dual action machine however will do nothing that you cannot achieve by hand as it pretty much just vibrates against the surface. Polishing action is determined by the speed the mop head passes over the surface and DA machines never achieve any speed. Compare that with the perimeter of a 7" (or larger0 diameter mop rotating at 1800rpm and you'll understand just what they're capable of.
Rotary machines are capable of ripping paint from edges but this risk can be virtually eliminated if all you want to do is a bit of casual detailing by using foam mop heads. These tend to be so rigid they won't deform and get caught on edges, or are so fragile they just destroy themselves before they cause damage.
Edited by Byteme on Tuesday 7th October 19:40
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