Carbon Ceramic brake life
Discussion
silverspeed said:
Thanks . Does all this mean I shouldn't jet wash my wheels even though they have been bedded in? Don't use any chemicals but just a low pressure wash . It's all a bit concerning really .
One of the advantages of carbon discs is a significant reduction in brake dust. So all you need is to wax your rims, then wipe with a wet cloth. No need to pressure wash. 
BamfordMike said:
The advice doesn't say don't drive in the rain, that has never been said anywhere, certainly not by me, so i'm not quite sure what the b
ks actually is that you refer to? But if any of what i say here is, please feedback, you see, the whole purpose of this advice (intended by me anyway) is to inform prospective buyers so that getting bit on the arse post purchase of a car that needs discs doesn't happen - sometimes like V12 engines rattling, leaking oil, V8 clutches and other tales of serious woe does, because as the cars start to age more, this is a reality we see ever more of - Guys who save their whole life to buy their dream car ends up in the dream biting them on the arse with a hidden surprise, which is seriously not good.
To cover old ground,
There is no real path for rain water on to disc face save for wading.
Splash of clear water from washing, then driving, more than likely OK but i would avoid
Drenched disc, perhaps with chemical wheel clean, and then driving, probably best avoided at all costs
Covering the disc with any form of chemical cleaner, surely best avoided.
Wear rates.
More than one car has contributed to the build up of data to draw following conclusion
1- in the hands of a pro around race track a set of pads will last approx. 500 miles
2- in the hands of frequent trackday user and fast road driving, a set of pads will last 4500 - 5500 miles
3- in the hands of normal road use, never seeing track day a set of pads will last approx 15k miles
Not in all cases but mostly, regardless of how its achieved (from the list above), a disc will last 3 pad sets.
Discounting the pro track driver as that is not representative of what to look out for in road cars, if the car is year after year tracked and driven hard on the road, then expect approx. 15k miles from a set of discs, for a car driven lightly on the road expect approx 45k miles from the discs before needing replacement. It could be the case that driven extremely lightly on the road a pad set might last 20k miles and discs 60k.
Most owners here seem to be @ 3++ on my scale, and contrary to somebody 'thinking' they drove hard, if wear rates were closer to no. 3 than no. 2, wear rates are actually normal for this driver. If that means the consumable parts life for these particular cars will be longer, then fantastic, yours is the car a future buyer wants to own.
I remember a few years back on this forum unhappy discussions after new owners were bitten shortly after purchase needing to spend out on replacement clutch. The discussion then developed and questioned why couldn't clutch life / status form part of the 140 point check. Well, for manual it cant really apart from pedal feel and how the take up of drive feels. But for ASM it certainly is possible to ballpark likely clutch life expectancy. Same here then for ceramic discs. Because if new owner 5k miles into purchase gets rapid pad wear, turns out the discs were worn and surface layer has gone, the owner is faced with big spend to recover. The thread on the BR forum area and the message here is for the prospective purchaser to go into the purchase with eyes open re likely status of a consumable, and for CCM's there is a measurable to ask for to make an informed choice at point of purchase.
The spec requires discs to be removed, kiln dried to remove moisture then weighed, the minimum weight is written on each individual disc mounting bell. In practice nowhere i have come across including BR has a kiln, but the trade practice is to leave the discs off the car in dry environment for 12 hours and then weigh. If moisture ads weight, and the drying of the disc removes weight, if the discs were not kiln dried, simply left 12 hours and were weighed at nearing minimum density limit, then this is already point for alarm bell to ring and the full spec kiln dry will only remove more weight. It is my experience though, that when disc is approaching minimum density the surface finish will degrade from the mirror to look at and feel finish to a rough to touch and going off-black finish.
So, for the prospective buyer, A car at 40k plus, get a density weight check at pre purchase, or factor in disc renewal in asking price or walk away - because 'somebodies' word can be wrong regarding number of pad sets the car has used, so can the book be 'missing' stamps when pads were changed, and so can the car have 5k miles on clock and discs be wrecked from chemical wheel cleaning.
look for this;
avoid this
Below is a picture supplied by the factory of how a perfectly bedded in disc should look...ks actually is that you refer to? But if any of what i say here is, please feedback, you see, the whole purpose of this advice (intended by me anyway) is to inform prospective buyers so that getting bit on the arse post purchase of a car that needs discs doesn't happen - sometimes like V12 engines rattling, leaking oil, V8 clutches and other tales of serious woe does, because as the cars start to age more, this is a reality we see ever more of - Guys who save their whole life to buy their dream car ends up in the dream biting them on the arse with a hidden surprise, which is seriously not good.To cover old ground,
There is no real path for rain water on to disc face save for wading.
Splash of clear water from washing, then driving, more than likely OK but i would avoid
Drenched disc, perhaps with chemical wheel clean, and then driving, probably best avoided at all costs
Covering the disc with any form of chemical cleaner, surely best avoided.
Wear rates.
More than one car has contributed to the build up of data to draw following conclusion
1- in the hands of a pro around race track a set of pads will last approx. 500 miles
2- in the hands of frequent trackday user and fast road driving, a set of pads will last 4500 - 5500 miles
3- in the hands of normal road use, never seeing track day a set of pads will last approx 15k miles
Not in all cases but mostly, regardless of how its achieved (from the list above), a disc will last 3 pad sets.
Discounting the pro track driver as that is not representative of what to look out for in road cars, if the car is year after year tracked and driven hard on the road, then expect approx. 15k miles from a set of discs, for a car driven lightly on the road expect approx 45k miles from the discs before needing replacement. It could be the case that driven extremely lightly on the road a pad set might last 20k miles and discs 60k.
Most owners here seem to be @ 3++ on my scale, and contrary to somebody 'thinking' they drove hard, if wear rates were closer to no. 3 than no. 2, wear rates are actually normal for this driver. If that means the consumable parts life for these particular cars will be longer, then fantastic, yours is the car a future buyer wants to own.
I remember a few years back on this forum unhappy discussions after new owners were bitten shortly after purchase needing to spend out on replacement clutch. The discussion then developed and questioned why couldn't clutch life / status form part of the 140 point check. Well, for manual it cant really apart from pedal feel and how the take up of drive feels. But for ASM it certainly is possible to ballpark likely clutch life expectancy. Same here then for ceramic discs. Because if new owner 5k miles into purchase gets rapid pad wear, turns out the discs were worn and surface layer has gone, the owner is faced with big spend to recover. The thread on the BR forum area and the message here is for the prospective purchaser to go into the purchase with eyes open re likely status of a consumable, and for CCM's there is a measurable to ask for to make an informed choice at point of purchase.
The spec requires discs to be removed, kiln dried to remove moisture then weighed, the minimum weight is written on each individual disc mounting bell. In practice nowhere i have come across including BR has a kiln, but the trade practice is to leave the discs off the car in dry environment for 12 hours and then weigh. If moisture ads weight, and the drying of the disc removes weight, if the discs were not kiln dried, simply left 12 hours and were weighed at nearing minimum density limit, then this is already point for alarm bell to ring and the full spec kiln dry will only remove more weight. It is my experience though, that when disc is approaching minimum density the surface finish will degrade from the mirror to look at and feel finish to a rough to touch and going off-black finish.
So, for the prospective buyer, A car at 40k plus, get a density weight check at pre purchase, or factor in disc renewal in asking price or walk away - because 'somebodies' word can be wrong regarding number of pad sets the car has used, so can the book be 'missing' stamps when pads were changed, and so can the car have 5k miles on clock and discs be wrecked from chemical wheel cleaning.
look for this;
avoid this
I have 30 plus thousand miles on my carrera gt and it's carbon brakes . She is driven mostly to , on and from tracks . I've even driven her on slicks (phenomenal). Talking directly to the factory engineers there are some things that may help here , sorry if they have already been covered .
After track sessions I do 1/2 cool down laps . Make sure the holes in the disks are regularly blown through . Change pads at around half wear . Keep wheel cleaning products off the disks and stay out of the gravel .
These things have helped my disk life no end . The above is easy enough to modify for hard road driving , I Hope this helps .
After track sessions I do 1/2 cool down laps . Make sure the holes in the disks are regularly blown through . Change pads at around half wear . Keep wheel cleaning products off the disks and stay out of the gravel .
These things have helped my disk life no end . The above is easy enough to modify for hard road driving , I Hope this helps .
Edited by wtdoom on Friday 19th May 10:54
Hello at all
Just to tell you my just bought DBS my2010 with 74000kms (45000miles)
never had brake discs or pads changed!
The weighing was done and the discs are used at 30% at the front and 15% at the back.
Pads at 50% at the front and 30% at the back.
I have all the bills that confirm no change of these parts.
His AM workshop says that the discs last easily 100000kms (65000miles)
and the only one previous owner was driving very calmly ...
Just my 2 cts
Phil
Just to tell you my just bought DBS my2010 with 74000kms (45000miles)
never had brake discs or pads changed!
The weighing was done and the discs are used at 30% at the front and 15% at the back.
Pads at 50% at the front and 30% at the back.
I have all the bills that confirm no change of these parts.
His AM workshop says that the discs last easily 100000kms (65000miles)
and the only one previous owner was driving very calmly ...
Just my 2 cts
Phil
Edited by Phil57DBS on Wednesday 21st March 11:22
John, is it the same problem as discussed here?
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Afternoon all
General question regarding CCM discs if anyone can help please. Anyone seen this sort of pattern before? Gave my car a clean today and noticed this on the rear drivers side disc. I’m very careful when cleaning the wheels as I know chemical wheel cleaning products can cause problems, but these grooves look like maybe a stuck handbrake calliper or perhaps a small stone or piece of gravel has got itself stuck in between the pad and the disc? I have heard about the pins coming through the pad, but I thought the lines would be narrower if that’s the case. Anyway, it’s booked in next week for an inspection, but I’m preparing myself for bad news.....is the disc likely to be ok or will it need to be replaced? Fingers crossed. Any thoughts would be most welcome.
Best Regards
Minglar
General question regarding CCM discs if anyone can help please. Anyone seen this sort of pattern before? Gave my car a clean today and noticed this on the rear drivers side disc. I’m very careful when cleaning the wheels as I know chemical wheel cleaning products can cause problems, but these grooves look like maybe a stuck handbrake calliper or perhaps a small stone or piece of gravel has got itself stuck in between the pad and the disc? I have heard about the pins coming through the pad, but I thought the lines would be narrower if that’s the case. Anyway, it’s booked in next week for an inspection, but I’m preparing myself for bad news.....is the disc likely to be ok or will it need to be replaced? Fingers crossed. Any thoughts would be most welcome.
Best Regards
Minglar
Edited by Minglar on Tuesday 3rd December 14:56
For me : no need to replace the disc...
only remove all brake pads, clean them lightly with sandpaper, blow their housings.
if their thickness is less than 12mm, replace them, because the rivets will appear...and will scratch the disc !
see Pagid RSC1 equal OEM
front
https://www.atomic-shop.eu/part/95252-4941-RSC1/
rear
https://www.atomic-shop.eu/part/98331-4943-RSC1/
handbrake pads
https://www.auto-doc.fr/remsa/7306400
at the same time, take the opportunity to do a total bleeding of the brake fluid (MOTUL RBF600)
only remove all brake pads, clean them lightly with sandpaper, blow their housings.
if their thickness is less than 12mm, replace them, because the rivets will appear...and will scratch the disc !
see Pagid RSC1 equal OEM
front
https://www.atomic-shop.eu/part/95252-4941-RSC1/
rear
https://www.atomic-shop.eu/part/98331-4943-RSC1/
handbrake pads
https://www.auto-doc.fr/remsa/7306400
at the same time, take the opportunity to do a total bleeding of the brake fluid (MOTUL RBF600)
Edited by Phil57DBS on Tuesday 3rd December 15:33
Edited by Phil57DBS on Tuesday 3rd December 15:39
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